Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

[Trainbike46]

The question on whether it might be easier to train the Valleys depot(s) on the VoG line, rather than train Carmarthen (and Cardiff) depots on the Stadlers does stand, however badly the question was posed.

 

[Anonymous10]

The question on whether it might be easier to train the Valleys depot(s) on the VoG line, rather than train Carmarthen (and Cardiff) depots on the Stadlers does stand, however badly the question was posed.

It probably would be easier given they sign the 231s . However cardiff mainline will eventually sign the 231s so that's a mute point. Perhaps keep it to Cardiff as a whole?

 

[anthony263]

It’s appalling that they are dragging their feet on getting the VOG Coast Line up to 2 trains per hour - especially as Llantwit Major & Rhoose depend upon the trains being as the buses are hopeless for getting into Cardiff.

Would it not be easier to use the valley crews on this line as they already sign the 756’s? How many runs would they need to learn the route from Barry to Bridgend? I seem to ‘learn’ the roads I use in my car quick enough.

Long overdue plus stations at Cowbridge road. A half hourly rail service would improve access to Cardiff airport

 

[Cardiff123]

The half hourly service on the VoG was deferred indefinitely last year following TfW's timetable review. It's an odd decision as no infrastructure work is needed for the enhancement, just obviously some extra crews, so it's a quick and easy win. As a concession I think TfW offered 1 extra AM and PM peak service at some unspecified point in future.

The big hurdle to Stadlers on the VOG will be training - as it's Cardiff Mainline (and Carmarthen) crews rather than Valleys, and until now they haven't had any work on them yet.

Why are Carmarthen crews signing Cardiff - Barry - Bridgend services, which is essentially an extension of Valleys services? That makes no sense, as presumably Mainline crews will need training on 756s that won't be used on mainline services.

To the layman it makes much more sense to train Valleys crews on Barry - Bridgend and get the 231s on this route much sooner. If more 150s go in the bin before mainline crews are trained on 231s/756s, TfW will be scraping around for 153s to keep running VoG services, but presumably the 153/9s are due to be handed back soon as well?

 

[nigelsporne]

Please excuse my ignorance as I know little of how the South Wales services work but once the Coryton line goes live will the services see 756s.
It would seem sensible to increase the Rhoose service to half hourly but again I am not sure how much traffic Cardiff Airport generates.

 

[Caaardiff]

Please excuse my ignorance as I know little of how the South Wales services work but once the Coryton line goes live will the services see 756s.
It would seem sensible to increase the Rhoose service to half hourly but again I am not sure how much traffic Cardiff Airport generates.

Any increase to VOG services should be at the benefit of Rhoose, Llantwit Major and any other potential stations (St Athan?), not just for Cardiff Airport.

 

[Cardiff123]

Deleted

 

[Peter Sarf]

The half hourly service on the VoG was deferred indefinitely last year following TfW's timetable review. It's an odd decision as no infrastructure work is needed for the enhancement, just obviously some extra crews, so it's a quick and easy win. As a concession I think TfW offered 1 extra AM and PM peak service at some unspecified point in future.



Why are Carmarthen crews signing Cardiff - Barry - Bridgend services, which is essentially an extension of Valleys services? That makes no sense, as presumably Mainline crews will need training on 756s that won't be used on mainline services.

To the layman it makes much more sense to train Valleys crews on Barry - Bridgend and get the 231s on this route much sooner. If more 150s go in the bin before mainline crews are trained on 231s/756s, TfW will be scraping around for 153s to keep running VoG services, but presumably the 153/9s are due to be handed back soon as well?

Are there enough spare Valleys drivers etc to cover the Vale Of Glamorgan line ?.

Put another way would enough Carmarthen crews transfer all the way to Cardiff to fill the gap ?.

So I suspect/fear Carmarthen have enough drivers so cover the Vale Of Glamorgan line as it is nearer then other routes in the Valleys.

 

[Anonymous10]

Are there enough spare Valleys drivers etc to cover the Vale Of Glamorgan line ?.

Put another way would enough Carmarthen crews transfer all the way to Cardiff to fill the gap ?.

So I suspect/fear Carmarthen have enough drivers so cover the Vale Of Glamorgan line as it is nearer then other routes in the Valleys.

It's also a diversion route during times of disruption between Cardiff and Bridgend - well it was prior to the class 197s. Unsure if they have been cleared yet?

 

[craigybagel]

Would it not be easier to use the valley crews on this line as they already sign the 756’s? How many runs would they need to learn the route from Barry to Bridgend? I seem to ‘learn’ the roads I use in my car quick enough.

The question on whether it might be easier to train the Valleys depot(s) on the VoG line, rather than train Carmarthen (and Cardiff) depots on the Stadlers does stand, however badly the question was posed.

It probably would be easier given they sign the 231s . However cardiff mainline will eventually sign the 231s so that's a mute point. Perhaps keep it to Cardiff as a whole?

In most cases it's quicker and easier to learn traction rather than a new route. Given Cardiff crews will have to sign 231s anyway and it's only a short conversion from those to 756s, in the long run I would expect it to be a much quicker option than having Valleys crews learn the route - especially as Mainline crews would still need to keep up their knowledge of the VOG for diversions.

Why are Carmarthen crews signing Cardiff - Barry - Bridgend services, which is essentially an extension of Valleys services? That makes no sense, as presumably Mainline crews will need training on 756s that won't be used on mainline services.

Carmarthen need to sign it anyway, for diversionary purposes. They might as well work some trains over it (off the top of my head it's two round trips a day) so they can have more productive diagrams, rather than needing route refresh days. As I said before though, that was fine when it was all 150s and Pacers along there that they already signed. I suspect the maths will be different when the Stadlers take over.

To the layman it makes much more sense to train Valleys crews on Barry - Bridgend and get the 231s on this route much sooner. If more 150s go in the bin before mainline crews are trained on 231s/756s,

In the long run that would take a lot longer and cost more. I know it's frustrating, but if you look at the bigger picture there are good reasons for the VOG to be mainline work and not valleys.

It's also a diversion route during times of disruption between Cardiff and Bridgend - well it was prior to the class 197s. Unsure if they have been cleared yet?

I'm 99% sure they've been cleared, and that that clearance has gotten them out of a hole already.

 

[Cardiff123]

In most cases it's quicker and easier to learn traction rather than a new route. Given Cardiff crews will have to sign 231s anyway and it's only a short conversion from those to 756s, in the long run I would expect it to be a much quicker option than having Valleys crews learn the route - especially as Mainline crews would still need to keep up their knowledge of the VOG for diversions.

Carmarthen need to sign it anyway, for diversionary purposes. They might as well work some trains over it (off the top of my head it's two round trips a day) so they can have more produce diagrams, rather than needing route refresh days. As I said before though, that we fine when it was all 150s and Pacers along there that they already signed. I suspect the maths will be different when the Stadlers take over.

In the long run that would take a lot longer and cost more. I know it's frustrating, but if you look at the bigger picture there are good reasons for the VOG to be mainline work and not valleys.

I'm 99% sure they've been cleared, and that that clearance has gotten them out of a hole already.

Thanks for explaining why mainline crews work the VoG, it makes more sense now.

The VoG has been cleared for 197s for some time now, 197s have been working through the VoG on weekend diversions since at least last autumn.

 

[Anonymous10]

In most cases it's quicker and easier to learn traction rather than a new route. Given Cardiff crews will have to sign 231s anyway and it's only a short conversion from those to 756s, in the long run I would expect it to be a much quicker option than having Valleys crews learn the route - especially as Mainline crews would still need to keep up their knowledge of the VOG for diversions.

Carmarthen need to sign it anyway, for diversionary purposes. They might as well work some trains over it (off the top of my head it's two round trips a day) so they can have more produce diagrams, rather than needing route refresh days. As I said before though, that we fine when it was all 150s and Pacers along there that they already signed. I suspect the maths will be different when the Stadlers take over.

In the long run that would take a lot longer and cost more. I know it's frustrating, but if you look at the bigger picture there are good reasons for the VOG to be mainline work and not valleys.

I'm 99% sure they've been cleared, and that that clearance has gotten them out of a hole already.

Ohh, I thought it still wasn't cleared. Oops.

 

[craigybagel]

Thanks for explaining why mainline crews work the VoG, it makes more sense now.

The VoG has been cleared for 197s for some time now, 197s have been working through the VoG on weekend diversions since at least last autumn.

Thanks for the confirmation - I was sure I'd seen 197s coming off the VOG sitting disruption but I didn't want to cause confusion if I was mistaken.

Ohh, I thought it still wasn't cleared. Oops.

MKIVs definitely aren't cleared, there has been higher priority things for the teams who do that kind of work to be doing

 

[tfw756rider]

756102 has entered service today. 112 was let out prematurely hence why only doing the one service

That now means that half (12/24) of the 756s have now been in service!

Have been in service:
756102/104/105/106/107/108/111/112/114/115/116/117

Still to enter service:
756001/002/003/004/005/006/007/101/103/109/110/113

 

[Trainbike46]

In most cases it's quicker and easier to learn traction rather than a new route. Given Cardiff crews will have to sign 231s anyway and it's only a short conversion from those to 756s, in the long run I would expect it to be a much quicker option than having Valleys crews learn the route - especially as Mainline crews would still need to keep up their knowledge of the VOG for diversions.

Carmarthen need to sign it anyway, for diversionary purposes. They might as well work some trains over it (off the top of my head it's two round trips a day) so they can have more produce diagrams, rather than needing route refresh days. As I said before though, that we fine when it was all 150s and Pacers along there that they already signed. I suspect the maths will be different when the Stadlers take over.

In the long run that would take a lot longer and cost more. I know it's frustrating, but if you look at the bigger picture there are good reasons for the VOG to be mainline work and not valleys.

I'm 99% sure they've been cleared, and that that clearance has gotten them out of a hole already.

That makes a lot of sense, thank you for explaining.

 

[Jim]

Poor show today, only 3 passenger diagrams for 756s actually covered by them.

756106 756111 on training trains

756104 745115 756116 on passengers

150267 150284 on 756 turns

 

[Cardiff123]

Poor show today, only 3 passenger diagrams for 756s actually covered by them.

756106 756111 on training trains

756104 745115 756116 on passengers

150267 150284 on 756 turns

Meanwhile 150s are continuing to be sent for scrap.........

 

[John R]

Meanwhile 150s are continuing to be sent for scrap.........

If they have reached their C6 overhaul, do you expect someone to pay for some very expensive work simply to have them on standby for the occasional failure of the new stock to be available? The rolling stock company won't, so it will have to be Welsh taxpayers.

 

[Cardiff123]

If they have reached their C6 overhaul, do you expect someone to pay for some very expensive work simply to have them on standby for the occasional failure of the new stock to be available? The rolling stock company won't, so it will have to be Welsh taxpayers.

I was pointing out the need to get the 756s and other new trains into service ASAP.
Anyone who travels to & from Barry will have seen the 756s sat stabled there for well over a year now.

 

[AdamWW]

I was pointing out the need to get the 756s and other new trains into service ASAP.

Perhaps that's why they seem to have prioritised training runs over 756s in service today.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Perhaps that's why they seem to have prioritised training runs over 756s in service today.

Should have been long done by now.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Should have been long done by now.

I suppose the 756s have been waiting for enough electrification to be done for them to be usable on the TAM lines ?.
I am guessing the 398s are not as ready as they should be for the TAM electrification to be even more complete ?.

TAM = the lines from Cardiff (etc) up the valleys to Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr.

 

[The_Train]

The rolling stock company won't, so it will have to be Welsh taxpayers.

Go and ask those Welsh taxpayers who are left on platforms because of cancelled trains, or are wedged onto 2 car trains vice 4 car because of short forms whether they'd like their taxes spent on keeping trains running! At least they'd see something beneficial from the taxes they pay because if it's anything like in England, barring a lousy bin collection service, I see nothing in return for my taxes!

As an aside from that, instead of simply saying tough luck, the units are life expired, maybe questions should be asked of why we are (yet again) in a situation where old rolling stock is going off lease/being scrapped before the new rolling stock is fully available.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Go and ask those Welsh taxpayers who are left on platforms because of cancelled trains, or are wedged onto 2 car trains vice 4 car because of short forms whether they'd like their taxes spent on keeping trains running! At least they'd see something beneficial from the taxes they pay because if it's anything like in England, barring a lousy bin collection service, I see nothing in return for my taxes!

As an aside from that, instead of simply saying tough luck, the units are life expired, maybe questions should be asked of why we are (yet again) in a situation where old rolling stock is going off lease/being scrapped before the new rolling stock is fully available.

Er resident near class 701 land here !.
I think it is a UK wide problem - the time difference between what is promised will happen and what actually happens is getting bigger and bigger over the years.

EDIT - I meant to say that at least with TfW we can see progress and a light at the end of the tunnel. It does not appear there is a hopeless future (like the 701s).
I am very keen to see how things are in a years time on TfW, the positive is that it is tantalisingly obvious already.

As for tax payers - If the money was found and spent on overhauls for the 150s I fear the papers would have a field day in a years time when the 150s are thrown away !.

 

[Harpo]

TfW currently appears to be traincrew rich and fleet poor. Modern Railways February edition (page19) has an article headed ‘TfW has a surplus of drivers thanks to low attrition’. That’s a great position for a TOC with a reliable Sunday service with ‘Sundays inside’.

TfW’s non-delivery issues all appear to be fleet related with frequent short forms and substitutions on the Marches and Cambrian, and service reductions to Ebbw Vale and others.

It makes sense not to stretch fleet resources even more with VOG enhancements right now.

 

[The_Train]

As for tax payers - If the money was found and spent on overhauls for the 150s I fear the papers would have a field day in a years time when the 150s are thrown away !.

The papers didn't seem that bothered when money was spaffed on the 442 project and they didn't even get back into service. At least keeping the 150s running would give the people of Wales a more reasonable service for 12 months instead of cancellations and short-forms that will naturally occur instead.

I, for one, would rather see my taxes spent on something like this than them just disappearing into a big black hole like it does now. At least there would be visible evidence of taxes being used for something good, of which I see zero evidence currently. Sorry, but the "we can't be spending taxpayer money on this" argument doesn't wash with me, I'm afraid.

 

[Cardiff123]

TfW currently appears to be traincrew rich and fleet poor. Modern Railways February edition (page19) has an article headed ‘TfW has a surplus of drivers thanks to low attrition’. That’s a great position for a TOC with a reliable Sunday service with ‘Sundays inside’.

TfW’s non-delivery issues all appear to be fleet related with frequent short forms and substitutions on the Marches and Cambrian, and service reductions to Ebbw Vale and others.

It makes sense not to stretch fleet resources even more with VOG enhancements right now.

If you're referring to the plan to increase VoG services to 2tph, that's been deferred indefinitely. But the least that could happen is seeing the remaining 1tph services strengthened to double 150s or 150+153.
An example being the 0740 Bridgend via Barry all stops service to Cardiff. It's still just a 2 car 150, is usually standing room only by Barry and past Cadoxton it's not unusual for it to be impossible to board.

So yes, seeing ready to go 756s sat idle in sidings in Barry whilst passengers are still crammed into 2 car-150s on a 1tph service is frustrating.

 

[John R]

If you're referring to the plan to increase VoG services to 2tph, that's been deferred indefinitely. But the least that could happen is seeing the remaining 1tph services strengthened to double 150s or 150+153.
An example being the 0740 Bridgend via Barry all stops service to Cardiff. It's still just a 2 car 150, is usually standing room only by Barry and past Cadoxton it's not unusual for it to be impossible to board.

So yes, seeing ready to go 756s sat idle in sidings in Barry whilst passengers are still crammed into 2 car-150s on a 1tph service is frustrating.

But there's a train 11 minutes later from Barry which people could take which has 4 coaches (at least did have today), so that hardly seems the end of the world.

Ultimately there needs to be an assessment as to whether the spend involved in a heavy overhaul of stock which is (as far as the owner leasing company is concerned) life expired and about to be scrapped represents good value for taxpayers money. If the 756s are expected to come fully on stream in the next couple of months then I suspect that answer is "no" and I can't say I blame them.

 

[Markdvdman]

I can testify to the 7:40am from Bridgend to Rhymney via the VoG. It is a disgrace it is always 2 carriages. It is shockingly difficult to get off at Cadoxton! I end up standing before it gets to Llantwit simply to be in a better position to get off. To say there is a service 10 mins later is not valid as people have to get that train to get to work on time. Flexi time is not available to all!!!

 

[Richard Scott]

Go and ask those Welsh taxpayers who are left on platforms because of cancelled trains, or are wedged onto 2 car trains vice 4 car because of short forms whether they'd like their taxes spent on keeping trains running! At least they'd see something beneficial from the taxes they pay because if it's anything like in England, barring a lousy bin collection service, I see nothing in return for my taxes!

As an aside from that, instead of simply saying tough luck, the units are life expired, maybe questions should be asked of why we are (yet again) in a situation where old rolling stock is going off lease/being scrapped before the new rolling stock is fully available.

As a Welsh tax payer, no I wouldn't, they waste enough money as it is. I'll deal with the short formed trains, it's a small price to pay.
Don't worry, where I am everything is easily as lousy, if not worse, than what relatives get in England. Be careful what you wish for!