ZEBRA 2 Discussion

[SSmith2009]

Genuine question, are ZEBRA funded buses allowed to do routes not mentioned in the original bid?

Arriva do this all the time in Leicester with their Electroliners which are meant to be for the 47/48 and 50/51 services but can often be found elsewhere on the network.

 

[JD2168]

Our Yutongs have hit the road as expected. Rawmarsh depot have borrowed two for a shuttle bus service for a beer festival. Not sure if that violates the terms of ZEBRA?

The E400EV deckers seem a couple of months out. Apparently there was a fault identified with the type that is being rectified.

I must admit, I wasn’t expecting to see brand new buses used on the Magna Beer Festival Contract, here is 73084 on X3b on Thursday

 

[Mollman]

Genuine question, are ZEBRA funded buses allowed to do routes not mentioned in the original bid?

Yes but questions might start being asked in various circumstances.

 

[Hyebone]

I must admit, I wasn’t expecting to see brand new buses used on the Magna Beer Festival Contract, here is 73084 on X3b on Thursday

I agree. They have arrived back at Stonegravels now and are operating local routes as they should.

Attached are my photos of the beer festival shuttles from Thursday

 

[Nammer]

Genuine question, are ZEBRA funded buses allowed to do routes not mentioned in the original bid?

First Solent's Hoeford allocated ones seem to do any Hoeford route.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Reason I asked the question is, Exeter's ZEBRA bid doesn't seem to be working out that well. The bid was for the 4, A, and C routes. The 4 and A often use double deckers, the C can't because of a low bridge.

The order went to Volvo, all 10.8m single deck. The standard Volvo BZL would have fitted under the the bridge at the time of the order, but the bridge clearance has since been reduced. The Volvos might have to serve elsewhere while a planned second underpass is built, and they might be a bit small for the 4 and A.

Might it have been better not to combine routes with such different requirements in a bid?

 

[820KDV]

Whilst I can't answer for the Exeter ones, I do know from our bid that we were asked if we wanted to add more buses to the scheme, and we understand that is because some prices are turning out less than expected, and that some schemes have proved to be undeliverable (although no one has said which) and they are reallocating money. We have been told that we should hear whether our additional bid has been successful "any time now" for the past month or so.

Another possibility, and I don't know the bridge, but it sounds like it might be a small reduction in height which they can solve (dig out and resurface the road, perhaps). Certainly in our scheme we are reprofiling two speed tables and adjusting cambers at one junction where the present buses often scrape their bottoms, and we don't want the underslung batteries doing the same.

 

[SCH117X]

Genuine question, are ZEBRA funded buses allowed to do routes not mentioned in the original bid?

The originally proposed single decker fleet for Transdev Blazefields Harrogate operation was 20 covering 3 routes (one having a number of variations). One of those was cut to hourly from half hourly but still 20 vehicles were ordered so another route has benefitted plus there are enough to provide some level of stand in for the all too often poorly eight Volvo 7900Es, one of which only managed one mornings use in 2024 having last been used in May 2023.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Whilst I can't answer for the Exeter ones, I do know from our bid that we were asked if we wanted to add more buses to the scheme, and we understand that is because some prices are turning out less than expected, and that some schemes have proved to be undeliverable (although no one has said which) and they are reallocating money. We have been told that we should hear whether our additional bid has been successful "any time now" for the past month or so.

Another possibility, and I don't know the bridge, but it sounds like it might be a small reduction in height which they can solve (dig out and resurface the road, perhaps). Certainly in our scheme we are reprofiling two speed tables and adjusting cambers at one junction where the present buses often scrape their bottoms, and we don't want the underslung batteries doing the same.

Yes, it's a very small reduction (3") due to road resurfacing. It probably could be increased, but there are also plans for a second underpass, which would probably be slightly higher, but still too low for double deckers. There is another bridge on the A route, which I believe requires double deckers to use the middle of the road, so single deckers could be more efficient if they can handle the load.

I notice the low bridge problem appeared upthread. In my researches, the lowest full size EV I've found is the Switch Metrocity, which has no roof batteries, though this might mean too short a range for some routes. The new BYD B12 also has no roof batteries, but the standard body is still 3.2m high, taller than most diesels. At one time, I suppose an operator would have ordered a special low-height body from a body builder, but is it all mass produced, one-size-fits-all now, like the Leyland National (also 3.2m high!)?

 

[Teapot42]

Yes but questions might start being asked in various circumstances.

What sort of circumstances? I'm curious as today some of the Stonegravels Yutongs ended up on the tendered 65 Buxton to Sheffield service which couldn't be on the bid as it's not a commercial service for the depot.

 

[Mollman]

What sort of circumstances? I'm curious as today some of the Stonegravels Yutongs ended up on the tendered 65 Buxton to Sheffield service which couldn't be on the bid as it's not a commercial service for the depot.

For instance if the Local Authority has support the bid based on route X being converted to electric but after a while all the electrics operate on route Y instead and route X has a random allocation of older vehicles. They could question why that was happening given all the work done in the bid was focused on route X (detailing nature of route including Air Quality Management Areas).
Tendered services are a tricky area, there were rules around not being able to use ZEBRA buses to gain a competitive advantage hence where the local authority owned the buses.

 

[Teapot42]

For instance if the Local Authority has support the bid based on route X being converted to electric but after a while all the electrics operate on route Y instead and route X has a random allocation of older vehicles. They could question why that was happening given all the work done in the bid was focused on route X (detailing nature of route including Air Quality Management Areas).

From memory, the Chesterfield bid pretty much covered all commercial services from Stonegravels depot, aside from one which couldn't go electric at the time as there weren't two options which fitted under a particularly low bridge. At the time of the bid they didn't operate many tendered services, but have since taken on more. We are assuming they will be retaining diesel Solos and E200s to cover these routes - it will be interesting if the EVs start appearing regularly instead.

Tendered services are a tricky area, there were rules around not being able to use ZEBRA buses to gain a competitive advantage hence where the local authority owned the buses.

I can't see that the tenders would have factored in EV use - some were in place before ZEBRA came along, others were emergency tenders due to other operators pulling out or failing.

However, I guess running an EV on a tendered route should reduce the cost of operating that route - I wonder how future tenders will assess this?

I should say it wasn't specifically put in that route only, they have some really convoluted diagrams, especially evenings and Sundays, where tendered services run off commercial ones.

 

[MotCO]

From memory, the Chesterfield bid pretty much covered all commercial services from Stonegravels depot, aside from one which couldn't go electric at the time as there weren't two options which fitted under a particularly low bridge. At the time of the bid they didn't operate many tendered services, but have since taken on more. We are assuming they will be retaining diesel Solos and E200s to cover these routes - it will be interesting if the EVs start appearing regularly instead.

I can't see that the tenders would have factored in EV use - some were in place before ZEBRA came along, others were emergency tenders due to other operators pulling out or failing.

However, I guess running an EV on a tendered route should reduce the cost of operating that route - I wonder how future tenders will assess this?

I should say it wasn't specifically put in that route only, they have some really convoluted diagrams, especially evenings and Sundays, where tendered services run off commercial ones.

Are operators precluded from using ZEBRA funded buses on other commercial routes or services where there is no interworking with ZEBRA intended routes , e.g. rail replacement services?

 

[mk1979]

What sort of circumstances? I'm curious as today some of the Stonegravels Yutongs ended up on the tendered 65 Buxton to Sheffield service which couldn't be on the bid as it's not a commercial service for the depot.

Sunday operation on route 65 was in the Zebra2 bid. Operators are not restricted as to which routes they can operate Zebra2 vehicles, operators should be maximising electric bus miles.

 

[Llandudno]

Sunday operation on route 65 was in the Zebra2 bid. Operators are not restricted as to which routes they can operate Zebra2 vehicles, operators should be maximising electric bus miles.

Presumably when all the electric buses arrive, all evening and Sunday services, tendered or otherwise will be operated by electric buses, apart from those on the 90b owing to a low bridge?

 

[Teapot42]

Sunday operation on route 65 was in the Zebra2 bid. Operators are not restricted as to which routes they can operate Zebra2 vehicles, operators should be maximising electric bus miles.

Thanks for the clarification. I don't recall seeing it mentioned in the press, but presumably we only get to see a summary and there is a lot more detail.

Was there an option to increase the bid to include more tendered services, or does the nature of tendering make it difficult to do so?

While I agree that electric miles should be maximised, there is a slight concern that an operator with a partly subsidised electric fleet is in a better position to submit a competitive tender, putting them at what could be considered an unfair advantage.

 

[Bornin1980s]

From memory, the Chesterfield bid pretty much covered all commercial services from Stonegravels depot, aside from one which couldn't go electric at the time as there weren't two options which fitted under a particularly low bridge.

From my researches, the Switch Metrocity, with no roof batteries, is the lowest height full-size electric bus available, at 2850 mm, lower than some diesels. Now, would another company please come up with a low height rival?!

 

[Teapot42]

From my researches, the Switch Metrocity, with no roof batteries, is the lowest height full-size electric bus available, at 2850 mm, lower than some diesels. Now, would another company please come up with a low height rival?!

Is that actually available to buy in the UK?

The E100EV would fit under said bridge (10'3, so a tad over 3.1m) however it wasn't available at the time the bid was placed, and I'm not sure the capacity is enough for the route anyway. Plus I'd imaging they want to standardise on types that cover a range of capacities rather than having a handful of buses dedicated to one route.

The current E200EV is too tall, as are the Yutongs.

 

[mk1979]

Thanks for the clarification. I don't recall seeing it mentioned in the press, but presumably we only get to see a summary and there is a lot more detail.

Was there an option to increase the bid to include more tendered services, or does the nature of tendering make it difficult to do so?

While I agree that electric miles should be maximised, there is a slight concern that an operator with a partly subsidised electric fleet is in a better position to submit a competitive tender, putting them at what could be considered an unfair advantage.

Remember the whole point of the Zebra2 funding is to bring the cost of electric down so it’s comparable to a diesel so an electric fleet doesn’t offer competitive advantage over another operators diesel fleet when bidding for tenders.

The reason tendered routes were largely excluded when putting the Zebra2 bid together was that all tenders are due for renewal within a year or two so risk they would be lost to another operator at that stage leaving stranded assets (ie the electric buses). A condition of Zebra2 funding is that the buses must remain in the area they were purchased for for at least five years. So if we’d bid for electric buses for route 65 on weekdays and lost it on retendering we would have 2 electric buses with no work that must remain in Derbyshire and the other operators who may bid and win for the work are unlikely to want to take them given they wouldn’t have the charging infrastructure at their depots. Plus the fact that the Zebra2 buses are, in most cases, owned by the operator and not the authority who submitted the bid.

We’ve proposed to Local Authorities a way of electrifying tendered bus networks which would create a level playing field for all operators likely to bid including SME’s as it’s in all our interests that we find solutions to decarbonising tendered bus networks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2025 ==

Presumably when all the electric buses arrive, all evening and Sunday services, tendered or otherwise will be operated by electric buses, apart from those on the 90b owing to a low bridge?

Pretty much yes that should be the case.
Makes sense to maximise electric mileage for all sorts of reasons.

 

[Teapot42]

Remember the whole point of the Zebra2 funding is to bring the cost of electric down so it’s comparable to a diesel so an electric fleet doesn’t offer competitive advantage over another operators diesel fleet when bidding for tenders.

Apologies for my lack of industry knowledge here, but does Zebra2 take in to account the OpEx costs, or just the CapEx costs?

I'd assumed just CapEx as that would be the biggest initial hurdle to going electric, and I was considering the advantage as coming from lower OpEx costs - depending of course what rate is paid for charging said buses. Very happy to be corrected.

We’ve proposed to Local Authorities a way of electrifying tendered bus networks which would create a level playing field for all operators likely to bid including SME’s as it’s in all our interests that we find solutions to decarbonising tendered bus networks.

I did wonder if having the vehicles owned by the tendering authority wouldn't be a more sensible way to do it, but of course that then would potentially cause issues for operators such as yourselves where tendered and commercial services can be worked as part of the same diagram. I can imagine it's not an easy problem to solve.

Out of interest, are there plans to install any charging infrastructure away from Stonegravels, for example so buses can be topped up during the day? And is there any likelihood of independent investment in vehicles suitable for the 90, or is that likely to remain diesel for the foreseeable future? While I'd love the council to take the necessary steps to lower the road level (or raise the rail level) I fear infrastructure spending in this country doesn't support such common sense moves.

 

[Stan Drews]

Apologies for my lack of industry knowledge here, but does Zebra2 take in to account the OpEx costs, or just the CapEx costs?

I'd assumed just CapEx as that would be the biggest initial hurdle to going electric, and I was considering the advantage as coming from lower OpEx costs - depending of course what rate is paid for charging said buses. Very happy to be corrected.

The various funding schemes for electric buses (Zebra/ScotZeb etc) provide funding for a proportion of the ADDITIONAL cost of an EV (or other zero emission) bus compared with the cost of a conventional diesel bus.
Therefore, if a standard diesel E400MMC costs you £250k and the E400EV costs you £400k, the funding will cover part of that £150k difference.
One of the major costs of introducing EV buses, is the infrastructure required at the depots, and the funding goes much further in contributing to these costs.
You can find some interesting details of the recent Scottish scheme at the link below, and I’m sure there will be similar details available of the English schemes on t’internet.

Scottish Zero Emission Bus challenge fund | Transport Scotland

www.transport.gov.scot

 

[mk1979]

Apologies for my lack of industry knowledge here, but does Zebra2 take in to account the OpEx costs, or just the CapEx costs?
I'd assumed just CapEx as that would be the biggest initial hurdle to going electric, and I was considering the advantage as coming from lower OpEx costs - depending of course what rate is paid for charging said buses. Very happy to be corrected.

You'd assumed right. Zebra2 funding covers up to 75% of the difference between electric and diesel bus capital cost and 75% of the infrastructure costs. The 25% additional capital costs operators fund so whilst operating costs for electric are cheaper the capital cost remains more so the two tend to balance out over the anticipated vehicle life given the Zebra2 contribution.

Out of interest, are there plans to install any charging infrastructure away from Stonegravels, for example so buses can be topped up during the day? And is there any likelihood of independent investment in vehicles suitable for the 90, or is that likely to remain diesel for the foreseeable future? While I'd love the council to take the necessary steps to lower the road level (or raise the rail level) I fear infrastructure spending in this country doesn't support such common sense moves.

The only charging infrastructure as part of the bid is at the depot, consideration was given to adding pantograph charging at another location at one point but given the range of the buses it was decided not to progress.
The low bridges on the 90 are a challenge, similar to the bridge on the 217 in Kilnhurst. We've challenged manufacturers to come up with a lower height single deck so we can completely electrify the routes at Chesterfield and Rawmarsh depots. Albeit there isn't yet a suitable electric coach solution for the mileage range we need on the NX diagrams.
Electric vehicle tech is moving on apace, I suspect we'll see solutions in the next few years.

 

[Llandudno]

Remember the whole point of the Zebra2 funding is to bring the cost of electric down so it’s comparable to a diesel so an electric fleet doesn’t offer competitive advantage over another operators diesel fleet when bidding for tenders.

The reason tendered routes were largely excluded when putting the Zebra2 bid together was that all tenders are due for renewal within a year or two so risk they would be lost to another operator at that stage leaving stranded assets (ie the electric buses). A condition of Zebra2 funding is that the buses must remain in the area they were purchased for for at least five years. So if we’d bid for electric buses for route 65 on weekdays and lost it on retendering we would have 2 electric buses with no work that must remain in Derbyshire and the other operators who may bid and win for the work are unlikely to want to take them given they wouldn’t have the charging infrastructure at their depots. Plus the fact that the Zebra2 buses are, in most cases, owned by the operator and not the authority who submitted the bid.

We’ve proposed to Local Authorities a way of electrifying tendered bus networks which would create a level playing field for all operators likely to bid including SME’s as it’s in all our interests that we find solutions to decarbonising tendered bus networks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2025 ==


Pretty much yes that should be the case.
Makes sense to maximise electric mileage for all sorts of reasons.

Great to hear, in fact an evening working tonight on the X17 between Matlock and Chesterfield was operated using an electric bus. It was running on time so obviously managed the ascent of Slack Hill (1000ft above sea level) without a problem!

 

[Bornin1980s]

Wouldn't Alexander have once been able to produce special low-height bodies for individual operators, back when they were Walter Alexander, the body builder?

 

[Teapot42]

Great to hear, in fact an evening working tonight on the X17 between Matlock and Chesterfield was operated using an electric bus. It was running on time so obviously managed the ascent of Slack Hill (1000ft above sea level) without a problem!

I'd be very surprised if it wasn't significantly quicker - last time I was on an MMC up there I decided to see how fast it was going. According to my GPS it dropped to under 20mph. While the power output of the Yutong motor is similar to the ISB in the MMC, the torque output is massively more.

I do wonder how one would cope if they needed to call at the stop part-way up the hill though. That much torque will help them maintain speed up the hill, but starting up hill might not be so easy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2025 ==

You'd assumed right. Zebra2 funding covers up to 75% of the difference between electric and diesel bus capital cost and 75% of the infrastructure costs. The 25% additional capital costs operators fund so whilst operating costs for electric are cheaper the capital cost remains more so the two tend to balance out over the anticipated vehicle life given the Zebra2 contribution.

Thanks for the details, that's slightly different to what I'd seen elsewhere and does make sense. Are the infrastructure costs only the chargers? While solar in itself won't be much use (as most charging will be overnight) with battery storage it could help bring charging costs down.

The low bridges on the 90 are a challenge, similar to the bridge on the 217 in Kilnhurst. We've challenged manufacturers to come up with a lower height single deck so we can completely electrify the routes at Chesterfield and Rawmarsh depots.

The Enviro100 appears low enough for the 90, but I'd suspect capacity would be a challenge at certain times of day. The 200EV appears to be taller unfortunately. Packaging enough batteries for the range while keeping as much low floor as possible can't be easy.

Was consideration ever given to revising the 90 route to avoid the low bridge? The 25 could be extended to serve Barrow Hill and Staveley, and the 90 and 74 re-routed to help serve Inkersall and Middlecroft more effectively.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2025 ==

Wouldn't Alexander have once been able to produce special low-height bodies for individual operators, back when they were Walter Alexander, the body builder?

I suspect the bigger issue is the need for buses to be low floor. This gives little opportunity to package batteries underneath, so they usually go in the roof. Don't forget also you don't just have the cells, most EV batteries have some sort of cooling system to optimise range and lifetime.

The more 'creative' you get with battery placement, the more expensive the vehicle is to build as well. Plus, if you need to start running wires between cell locations that can affect efficiency. While it's low, wire does have a resistance so you lose some power as heat.

From what I've seen, most low height EVs are either limited range and / or use 'opportunity charging' to allow a smaller battery pack to be used. The costs of doing this for one route at a depot which uses handful of buses usually doesn't make sense, especially as there is a risk that failures may mean not being able to run the route as other vehicles can't be substituted.

 

[Hyebone]

The Enviro100 appears low enough for the 90, but I'd suspect capacity would be a challenge at certain times of day.

Oh absolutely. I regularly see 90s packed to the brim at peak times.

Perhaps a discussion for the dedicated Stagecoach Yorkshire thread, but I wonder how feasible it would be to send a bus down the back of New Whittington to serve Barrow Hill instead of sending it under the low rail bridge (10ft 3in for those non-local)

 

[Edvid]

Are the infrastructure costs only the chargers?

Schemes help pay for grid upgrades - e.g. a new substation - as well if the need arises (it usually does).

 

[Trainman40083]

Ind

Schemes help pay for grid upgrades - e.g. a new substation - as well if the need arises (it usually does).

Indeed..Many companies have found that the problem has been getting the grid connection. I imagine it is keeping the utility provider busy, with more demand than can be addressed.

 

[Edvid]

A First Hampshire & Dorset Wright GB Kite has been in Cornwall recently, apparently for "driver familiarisation", which may suggest that the 7 vehicles for Truro P&R will be the same type.

Yes, Wrightbus has indeed won the contract to supply battery-electrics for Truro P&R.

Description​

Procurement of 7 Electric Buses via The Procurement Partnership Bus and Coach Purchase framework Lot 4 36-75 seat buses and coaches

---

Award information​

Awarded date​

27 January 2025

Contract start date​

28 January 2025

Contract end date​

1 September 2035

Total value of contract​

£2,695,378
This contract was awarded to 1 supplier.

Bamford Bus Company Ltd trading as Wrightbus​

 

[MotCO]

The Enviro100 appears low enough for the 90, but I'd suspect capacity would be a challenge at certain times of day. The 200EV appears to be taller unfortunately. Packaging enough batteries for the range while keeping as much low floor as possible can't be easy.

The Enviro 100 has smaller wheels; is it possible to fit smaller wheels to an Enviro 200 whilst still giving adequate ground clearance, and would it then be able to clear the low bridge?