GBR and Staff Travel

[Andrew1395]

Moderator note-split from

Network Rail Corporate Travel season ticket

Hi all. I have recently joined NR and applied for the season ticket through Abellio. I've just received my ticket and my discount is £2750 out of £5768, which would be nearly a 50% discount. I was led to believe that the discount would be 75% of the total price of the ticket or have I missed...

www.railforums.co.uk

Hopefully GBR will remove all this nonsense and reinstate a national offer analogous to the safeguarded offer.That will not be a benefit in kind. As the provision of Free and discounted travel will be “De Minimus” to GBR.

Of course there will be losers as some staff will no longer get free first class travel on their Line of route. Hopefully the unions will see the collective Benefit to all and not back secular interests.

 

[stungata]

Hopefully GBR will remove all this nonsense and reinstate a national offer analogous to the safeguarded offer.That will not be a benefit in kind. As the provision of Free and discounted travel will be “De Minimus” to GBR.

Of course there will be losers as some staff will no longer get free first class travel on their Line of route. Hopefully the unions will see the collective Benefit to all and not back secular interests.

Everybody I've spoken to agrees that as maintenance staff we should be entitled to free travel on the rail network in the UK. We give our time, health and commitment to maintain and upkeep the network, it would make sense to be able to travel for free!

 

[Haywain]

Hopefully the unions will see the collective Benefit to all and not back secular interests.

They certainly didn't do that in 1995, so it's difficult to see why they should act differently in the future.

 

[Andrew1395]

What happened in 1995 - safeguarded status guillotine was 31 March 1996.

Everybody I've spoken to agrees that as maintenance staff we should be entitled to free travel on the rail network in the UK. We give our time, health and commitment to maintain and upkeep the network, it would make sense to be able to travel for free!

It’s a way the employer can repress wages too. When I worked for BR we got 14 free miles residential. then as wages become uncompetitive in the South East of England that got increased to 49 miles in 1988.

 

[stungata]

What happened in 1995 - safeguarded status guillotine was 31 March 1996.


It’s a way the employer can repress wages too. When I worked for BR we got 14 free miles residential. then as wages become uncompetitive in the South East of England that got increased to 49 miles in 1988.

Can you elaborate on the second sentence, please? BR was way before my time and I'm a bit confused here.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Can you elaborate on the second sentence, please? BR was way before my time and I'm a bit confused here.

AFAIR the stated mileage was free on a work season ticket, and the rest was 1/4 fare

 

[Andrew1395]

Can you elaborate on the second sentence, please? BR was way before my time and I'm a bit confused here.

In the 1980s BR expanded travel facilities instead of raising wages. In effect increasing staff renumeration without adding corporate cost eg salary/pension contribution, national insurance.

for r ample as a D grade supervisor in 1987 my basic salary was approx £8,000 plus14 miles free residential travel worth £700 = £8,700 Then in 1988 my salary increased to £8,160 but I got up to 40 miles free residential travel worth to me £1,000. So my total “pay” = £9,160. my total remuneration went up by £460 but cost BR an extra £160. My pensionable pay only increased by £160.

 

[Haywain]

What happened in 1995 - safeguarded status guillotine was 31 March 1996.

1995 was, roughly, when matters concerning privatisation were under discussion and the unions might have had some ability to effect different results.

 

[Andrew1395]

1995 was, roughly, when matters concerning privatisation were under discussion and the unions might have had some ability to effect different results.

No they didn’t. BR concluded the staff travel offer in July 1995. It was so generous the unions had nothing to complain about. It preserved everything that existed at the time. The key thing was that travel facilities became a contractual right for BR employees following the 1993 act. Before that it was a privilege that the employer could change at anytime. And BR changed it at a whim. When I joined MS1 got first class. By 1989 it was MS4.

The principle concern of the unions was ensuring staff retained all their entitlements at transfer of ownership.Which they did through staff travel agreements with RSTL. Privatisation made for the first time free and discount travel a contractual benefit protected by law. The unions had nothing yo complain about!

Staff retained full pension, salary and travel benefits at TUPE at privatisation.

There were no changes to terms of conditions for employees who were BR employees. The term “safeguarded staff” - is the clue. After thirty years staff who were BR employees still enjoy BR staff travel benefits. And pension benefits.

You can hardly expect unions to represent people who were not employees in 1995.

compare that to employees of other privatised businesses. Rail staff have done extremely well.

The question is, how have past privatisation staff (not working for TOCs), done in terms of travel benefits. That’s where GBR will deliver cost savings by introducing a national non contractual offer. The unions, for example ASLEF need to accept that drivers at AWC (for example), will get less on AWC so that all drivers nationally get more.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Given that a certain (cough LNER cough) DfTO TOC refused to agree to free reciprocal travel with other DfTO TOCs to the point the whole deal was canned and decided to ‘just be sorted out as part of GBR’, I suspect that people will be sorely disappointed…

 

[Llanigraham]

Everybody I've spoken to agrees that as maintenance staff we should be entitled to free travel on the rail network in the UK. We give our time, health and commitment to maintain and upkeep the network, it would make sense to be able to travel for free!

And signalling staff!

 

[Scotrail84]

Given that a certain (cough LNER cough) DfTO TOC refused to agree to free reciprocal travel with other DfTO TOCs to the point the whole deal was canned and decided to ‘just be sorted out as part of GBR’, I suspect that people will be sorely disappointed…

Yet their staff are amongst the most entitled i've ever come across in 20+ years. They expect free travel whenever they get on services and even pile into first class on occasions without even asking. If I, or any of my colleagues are ever refused by LNER staff then all hell will break loose North of the border given how accommodating we are for them.

 

[778]

My Dad only worked on the railway for 5 years (1990-1995?) but got free travel after retirement. Me and my brother also got free travel until we were 18 years old (I think it was a certain amount if free journeys instead of free travel all the time). I am not sure I really deserved to have free travel considering I did not work on the Railway, but certainly did not complain about it.

 

[dk1]

My Dad only worked on the railway for 5 years (1990-1995?) but got free travel after retirement. Me and my brother also got free travel until we were 18 years old (I think it was a certain amount if free journeys instead of free travel all the time). I am not sure I really deserved to have free travel considering I did not work on the Railway, but certainly did not complain about it.

That’s odd because free and priv rail travel had to be under the two ‘Rs’ which were Redundancy or Retirement but the stipulation was that 20 years service should be completed.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Yet their staff are amongst the most entitled i've ever come across in 20+ years. They expect free travel whenever they get on services and even pile into first class on occasions without even asking. If I, or any of my colleagues are ever refused by LNER staff then all hell will break loose North of the border given how accommodating we are for them.

Oh yes, don’t even get me started on it. Straight to first class without asking and then act indignant if you politely ask them to go to standard

 

[Scotrail84]

Oh yes, don’t even get me started on it. Straight to first class without asking and then act indignant if you politely ask them to go to standard

The attitudes of some members of staff are absolutely shocking it has to be said.

 

[Msq71423]

Back to this original topic. On an internal video update from the MD at TPE, despite him pushing for it since TPE became DfT owned, he has now said there will definitely not be any cross TOC travel between TPE and LNER despite both being government owned TOCs. So much for nationalisation.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Back to this original topic. On an internal video update from the MD at TPE, despite him pushing for it since TPE became DfT owned, he has now said there will definitely not be any cross TOC travel between TPE and LNER despite both being government owned TOCs. So much for nationalisation.

I refer you to:

Given that a certain (cough LNER cough) DfTO TOC refused to agree to free reciprocal travel with other DfTO TOCs

 

[Meerkat]

That will not be a benefit in kind. As the provision of Free and discounted travel will be “De Minimus” to GBR.

Could you explain this bit to an outsider please?

 

[LowLevel]

Back to this original topic. On an internal video update from the MD at TPE, despite him pushing for it since TPE became DfT owned, he has now said there will definitely not be any cross TOC travel between TPE and LNER despite both being government owned TOCs. So much for nationalisation.

I don't really understand it to be honest, especially given there's a fairly long standing agreement already there with EMR.

 

[duffield]

Could you explain this bit to an outsider please?

When an employer provides a benefit to staff that has a cost to that employer, it is regarded for tax purposes as a "benefit in kind" and taxable as if the cost to the employer was part of the employee's salary. When the benefit is provided at a minimal or no cost to the employer ("de minimus") it is not regarded as a "benefit in kind" for tax purposes and so has no tax implications.

When I worked for BR before privatisation I paid no tax on my staff travel, since BR did not pay anyone for it. After privatisation I paid around £200 p.a. tax on it, because my private employer had to pay ATOC (as it was then) about £1000 p.a. for me to receive it.

If GBR ends up not paying anyone for the travel facilities it provides, the situation would revert to the one in BR days.

 

[HullRailMan]

Everybody I've spoken to agrees that as maintenance staff we should be entitled to free travel on the rail network in the UK. We give our time, health and commitment to maintain and upkeep the network, it would make sense to be able to travel for free!

Zero logic to this. Should supermarket cleaners get their weekly shop for free? Should gas network engineers get their energy bills paid for? Should road maintenance workers get free cars and petrol? The level of entitlement from staff in the rail industry is off the scale.

 

[MasterPhillips]

Zero logic to this. Should supermarket cleaners get their weekly shop for free? Should gas network engineers get their energy bills paid for? Should road maintenance workers get free cars and petrol? The level of entitlement from staff in the rail industry is off the scale.

It not about being ”entitled“ it’s about being fair between TOC employees and those who work for Network rail who seem to get a rough deal despite the fact we all work for “the railway”.

 

[Starmill]

The attitudes of some members of staff are absolutely shocking it has to be said.

That's shocking given the on-train upgrade to first class on ScotRail is a very sensible price indeed. At £15 if they have standard class passes they should be offering to pay that proactively.

Zero logic to this. Should supermarket cleaners get their weekly shop for free? Should gas network engineers get their energy bills paid for? Should road maintenance workers get free cars and petrol? The level of entitlement from staff in the rail industry is off the scale.

I am not going to get drawn into your overall point about what the benefits should or should not be, or who is or is not entitled to them, but I'd just like to point out none of your examples are the first bit comparable. Food isn't free, or even close, if you take away the costs of running the supermarket. Gas isn't free, or even close, if you take away the costs of the distribution network. Private motors and motor fuel ain't a penny cheaper or more expensive whether you pay to use the road or not, as car duties don't work like that and we only have a tiny, tiny portion of the network tolled for.

A person travelling on a train that was already running is genuinely all but free if they're standing or occupying a seat at last priority.

 

[Meerkat]

When an employer provides a benefit to staff that has a cost to that employer, it is regarded for tax purposes as a "benefit in kind" and taxable as if the cost to the employer was part of the employee's salary. When the benefit is provided at a minimal or no cost to the employer ("de minimus") it is not regarded as a "benefit in kind" for tax purposes and so has no tax implications.

When I worked for BR before privatisation I paid no tax on my staff travel, since BR did not pay anyone for it. After privatisation I paid around £200 p.a. tax on it, because my private employer had to pay ATOC (as it was then) about £1000 p.a. for me to receive it.

If GBR ends up not paying anyone for the travel facilities it provides, the situation would revert to the one in BR days.

Thanks - I was assuming it was value rather than cost based. Though if I was HMRC I would argue that it does cost the employer in lost income…..then get mired in whether that’s 100% or guesswork as you wouldn’t use it so much if paying for yourself!!

 

[greyman42]

As a former employee of BREL i have just had to pay £650 in tax to receive my staff travel.

 

[duffield]

Thanks - I was assuming it was value rather than cost based. Though if I was HMRC I would argue that it does cost the employer in lost income…..then get mired in whether that’s 100% or guesswork as you wouldn’t use it so much if paying for yourself!!

Yes, it's true there is the indirect lost revenue aspect but due to the nature of the benefit it would have been impossible for HMRC to value it meaningfully since many of the journeys would not have been undertaken by rail (or in some cases at all) if it were not for the facilities, so the revenue loss was unquantifiable. I would think that was an important factor in HMRC's decision.

 

[3RDGEN]

Just to clarify there wasn't an official right to unlimited free travel on BR, apart from senior managers, the general scheme was/is a certain amount of free days travel and 25% "Priv rate" travel for leisure purposes only. There's also Priv Season tickets for work purposes which for short journeys would in effect be free. I suspect some TOC staff maybe be disappointed if they have "unlimited" TOC/Owner Group travel perks and that gets removed and replaced with the old BR national system.

The issue of Rail Staff believing they have a right to free First Class upgrades as normal practice is an issue and looks terrible to paying passengers, if the guard/conductor offers you a free upgrade then fine but I think asking puts them in a terrible position.

 

[Meerkat]

The issue of Rail Staff believing they have a right to free First Class upgrades as normal practice is an issue and looks terrible to paying passengers, if the guard/conductor offers you a free upgrade then fine but I think asking puts them in a terrible position.

I’ve seen/heard that.
”are you expecting me to pay an upgrade?”
”Yes”

 

[Stossgebet]

It not about being ”entitled“ it’s about being fair between TOC employees and those who work for Network rail who seem to get a rough deal despite the fact we all

Zero logic to this. Should supermarket cleaners get their weekly shop for free? Should gas network engineers get their energy bills paid for? Should road maintenance workers get free cars and petrol? The level of entitlement from staff in the rail industry is off the scale.

Do you think the same about higher paid flight crew, that get free/standby/super cheap long haul flights?