Livery under Great British Railways

[irish_rail]

If all operators/regions are to get a standardised livery, I don't think this should be based on the flag. Looking at nationalised railways in other countries, very few brands are based on their flags. I think the NSE blue/red/white is quite jarring (and am not a fan of the London Underground livery either). None of the current privatised operators use a red and blue livery - Chiltern dropped red from theirs, and their current branding does look a lot better.

For a nationwide livery/brand, something more retro would make more sense, similar to GWR and EMR. The UK was one of the first countries to have a rail network, and has a lot of history around the railways, so this should ideally be reflected. A dark green livery would work well, having been used a lot historically - and in addition to GWR, is also now used by Caledonian Sleeper, Avanti, London Northwestern and Southern. Also, as the livery is likely to be used mostly for intercity/regional/rural services, a green livery would blend in better with the countryside compared to red/blue.

Alternatively, if they want to go for something a lot more modern, I quite like the idea of an orange livery, as used for paper tickets (as well as the Network Rail brand). Something similar to the old TGV livery could work well. I've also not seen Grand Central mentioned in these discussions - as a simple but unique livery. Perhaps an orange version of an EMR/Gatwick/ScotRail style livery for most services, inverted to something similar to Grand Central for intercity?

An orange livery would have as many political connotations as a flag. Orange probably best to be avoided in my view.

 

[Sun Chariot]

An orange livery would have as many political connotations as a flag. Orange probably best to be avoided in my view.

It's surprising that CIE changed their black livery to schemes bearing an increasing amount of orange, given the years they were using those colours.
Thankfully, no fallout - and I rather liked CIE/IR's version with the white stripe bordering the black-to-orange band.

Back on-topic... I really like ROG's "electrical pulses" scheme applied to 47813. My vague interpretation of it might be wide of what it actually represents!
And that's the nub of this post: I envisage GBR vinyls of bold, contemporary designs, that are relatable to casual travelling public and regular users alike. "Britishness" if you will:
- Famous people through British history,
- Well-known landmarks* and vistas,
- Some oblique ones - such as Cooper's Hill (in Glos') cheese rolling, a game of curling - to stimulate the public's curiosity.
Oh - and a base colour of perennially grey sky! Only kidding...

* Landmarks - in my view - should not be limited to the train's operating sphere. This is about celebrating our heritage and history; and about generating engagement with the travelling public.
Admittedly, a train bearing a.vinyl image of a Cornish tin mine probably holds less interest in York or Durham. But the idea is for a common vinyl, showing representative examples across Great Britain. The most recognised images, perhaps, used on trains of fewer carriages - and the full set of images on trains with more carriages.

 

[danchester]

An orange livery would have as many political connotations as a flag. Orange probably best to be avoided in my view.

Just copy the Glasgow Subway and insist that what everyone can clearly see is orange is, in fact, red!

 

[L+Y]

I think the Networker painted into NSE livery today proves NSE is not an outdated brand. It looks glorious. Just needs the red stripe over the doors and it’ll look brilliant

I absolutely agree. It looks amazing and, despite being born well after privatisation, I think it looks far better than the liveries we have today, and the fragmented railway system in the South-East.

Third agreement from me: I was actually quite startled at just how contemporary it looks.

But broadly I agree with those posters who reckon we won't see any much if any sign of any unified GBR livery in the medium term.

 

[Mikey C]

This feels like another example of Labour not hitting the ground running. 7 months since the election, and still nobody knows what their plans for the railway are. So in the meantime, trains are being refurbished and repainted as if nothing has changed.

 

[Farmer1997]

How difficult would it be to add a small double arrow, perhaps with “GBR” as well to rolling stock across the network?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Third agreement from me: I was actually quite startled at just how contemporary it looks.

But broadly I agree with those posters who reckon we won't see any much if any sign of any unified GBR livery in the medium term.

I honestly think it's the contrasting doors adaptation that makes it look more contemporary than some expected. I still don't think it looks completely 21st century, it does look a bit 90s, but nowhere near so as it did with doors hidden under an unchanged livery.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I honestly think it's the contrasting doors adaptation that makes it look more contemporary than some expected. I still don't think it looks completely 21st century, it does look a bit 90s, but nowhere near so as it did with doors hidden under an unchanged livery.

Yeah, it’s probably the lack of curved lines. Which became more popular in the late 90s-2000s

 

[Class15]

I honestly think it's the contrasting doors adaptation that makes it look more contemporary than some expected. I still don't think it looks completely 21st century, it does look a bit 90s, but nowhere near so as it did with doors hidden under an unchanged livery.

My main concern would be how it would fit more modern stock; it’s easy to say that the entire 465 fleet should be repainted as they look so good in NSE, but the issue is that 707s and 701s etc. may not look so good in it.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

My main concern would be how it would fit more modern stock; it’s easy to say that the entire 465 fleet should be repainted as they look so good in NSE, but the issue is that 707s and 701s etc. may not look so good in it.

They might just need a variation. The class 482s had their own livery which looked incredible on them

 

[Goldfish62]

This feels like another example of Labour not hitting the ground running. 7 months since the election, and still nobody knows what their plans for the railway are. So in the meantime, trains are being refurbished and repainted as if nothing has changed.

What livery are you expecting trains to be painting in then?

GBR doesn't exist yet. Whatever GBR decides to do with liveries has got nothing whatsoever to do with the government. That's why you won't see any change for a good while yet.

 

[Meerkat]

What livery are you expecting trains to be painting in then?

GBR doesn't exist yet. Whatever GBR decides to do with liveries has got nothing whatsoever to do with the government. That's why you won't see any change for a good while yet.

You don’t think the politicians will have a say on such an important thing - effectively the branding of one of their flagship policies?

 

[Mikey C]

What livery are you expecting trains to be painting in then?

GBR doesn't exist yet. Whatever GBR decides to do with liveries has got nothing whatsoever to do with the government. That's why you won't see any change for a good while yet.

But there's no timetable for a GBR livery, indeed no confirmation that there will or won't be a GBR livery. That's a political decision.

If a new livery is to be announced this year, then it makes sense to stop new repaints/wraps now, e.g. the 376s.

You don’t think the politicians will have a say on such an important thing - effectively the branding of one of their flagship policies?

Indeed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How difficult would it be to add a small double arrow, perhaps with “GBR” as well to rolling stock across the network?

I suspect "by Great British Railways" as a strapline will indeed be what we see first.

 

[Goldfish62]

You don’t think the politicians will have a say on such an important thing - effectively the branding of one of their flagship policies?

No, of course they won't. But I guess you're probably not old enough to remember when the UK previously had major nationalised industries so I can understand your query.

 

[Farmer1997]

I suspect "by Great British Railways" as a strapline will indeed be what we see first.

Quite possibly, ’GBR’ may not even feature but could see more application of the double arrow as that is still recognised with the public but will see.

 

[Meerkat]

No, of course they won't. But I guess you're probably not old enough to remember when the UK previously had major nationalised industries so I can understand your query.

Very much old enough - that’s why I don’t want to see it again!
Its a flagship political project - the minister will be involved in something as major as branding.
For a start they will have to keep standing in front of it…..

 

[BurtonM]

I don't understand why the expiry of Northern's direct award (tonight, as it happens) isn't being used as a springboard for GBR.
The Northern livery is low budget, tacky, and badly tainted - I think it'd be fantastic PR for them to finally put 'Northern' to rest.
Re-livery some 195s, give the North a little something to show they're not forgotten, and show people things are changing.
If nothing else, it buys time and demonstrates something is going on.

 

[Meerkat]

I don't understand why the expiry of Northern's direct award (tonight, as it happens) isn't being used as a springboard for GBR.
The Northern livery is low budget, tacky, and badly tainted - I think it'd be fantastic PR for them to finally put 'Northern' to rest.
Re-livery some 195s, give the North a little something to show they're not forgotten, and show people things are changing.
If nothing else, it buys time and demonstrates something is going on.

That would be insane - spend the next years deluged with “nothing has changed, it’s just PRlies!”

 

[ScottGallagher]

I would be very surprised if the new stock for Northern didn't coincide with a new livery, interior moquette and brand, no.point in slapping new branding on the likes of150s and 156's and the 195/331 fleet won't need a repaint for some years yet.

 

[generalnerd]

An orange livery would have as many political connotations as a flag. Orange probably best to be avoided in my view.

Late, but why is orange so political?

I think we should go for something like the DRS livery potentially. It looks nice and can work in a variate of different ways. It’s also a government entity.
Edit: by we I mean as a country, unless GBR gets lobbed to the forum

 

[vuzzeho]

I think orange, as a callback to paper tickets (which are being used less and less) would actually be a really nice idea. It worked on the TGV, so with the right designer, could work really nicely on trains here. I think as an InterCity livery it could work nicely. That, or something using BR Blue (the shade) - but it would have to use it creatively.

 

[43096]

I think orange, as a callback to paper tickets (which are being used less and less) would actually be a really nice idea. It worked on the TGV, so with the right designer, could work really nicely on trains here. I think as an InterCity livery it could work nicely. That, or something using BR Blue (the shade) - but it would have to use it creatively.

That's a matter of opinion. I thought the original orange TGV livery was hideous - the silver/blue introdued with the TGV-A sets was much, much better.

 

[Flinn Reed]

I think orange, as a callback to paper tickets (which are being used less and less) would actually be a really nice idea. It worked on the TGV, so with the right designer, could work really nicely on trains here. I think as an InterCity livery it could work nicely. That, or something using BR Blue (the shade) - but it would have to use it creatively.

Orange is also used for the Network Rail logo, so there clearly isn't an opposition to using the colour for the railways. Plus all UK trains are currently required have the orange line along the top of carriages.

I think an orange livery (similar to TGV) could be better for regional/stopping trains, then invert it to use the Grand Central livery for all intercity trains?

I think orange would work well if GBR want to take a more modern approach - a lot of passengers will already associate the railways with the orange paper tickets.

My preference though would still be a dark green livery for a more retro approach (maybe with a different colour for intercity) - could just use a green version of the EMR livery, and add the double arrow logo.

 

[Sorcerer]

I think orange, as a callback to paper tickets (which are being used less and less) would actually be a really nice idea. It worked on the TGV, so with the right designer, could work really nicely on trains here. I think as an InterCity livery it could work nicely. That, or something using BR Blue (the shade) - but it would have to use it creatively.

It worked in the 1980s, but when you look at an orange TGV I think it very clearly speaks a late 1970s concept, especially when it was applied to a Sud-Est set when the fleet was in it's final years. Orange wasn't quite an unusual colour for SNCF back then either, but it was more of a lining colour than a base one like on the TGV, so back then it was also a nice contrast that wouldn't really work on Britain's railway.

On a more personal note I also kind of associate orange with a technical or engineering side of the business rather than passenger. I know yellow is used for measurement units, but orange is quite distinctively the colour of the trackside workers. I think the closest modern livery close to orange that works is the Frecciarossa fleet, and even then it's more of a reddish colour than pure orange.

Blue could possibly work if it were darker or given a more modern twist, but not the same shade as we saw with BR Blue. I've been working on a speculative GBR Blue concept in Train Sim World's livery designer but it will take a while to come close to what I'm hoping for. I think blue is just one of those colours that works better than others, but I'm not a graphic designer so I can't fully explain why.

 

[JLH4AC]

Plus all UK trains are currently required have the orange line along the top of carriages.

The orange line along the top of carriages serves an important safety function, it clearly marks the point pass which you would be dangerous close to OHLE. As seen with the white line on the Class 196 if heavy use of orange prevents it from being seen it is changed to a more visible colour.

I think an orange livery (similar to TGV) could be better for regional/stopping trains, then invert it to use the Grand Central livery for all intercity trains?

A British railway livery similar to the TGV orange livery would just look like the Strathclyde Transport livery. Arriva UK still owns the Grand Central livery so GBR can't use it or anything closely related to it

I think orange would work well if GBR want to take a more modern approach - a lot of passengers will already associate the railways with the orange paper tickets.

My preference though would still be a dark green livery for a more retro approach (maybe with a different colour for intercity) - could just use a green version of the EMR livery, and add the double arrow logo.

The West Midlands Trains livery makes me think heavy use of orange does not work on modern rolling stock, I would say in my view the new Overground livery represents the point pass which it starts looking for lack of a better word gross looking if you keep adding more orange to modern rolling stock.

I would say dark green, blue, red or purple are the go-to colours if you want a solid colour or two tone (With White/cream or black/grey being the other colour.) livery that is not just white or grey.

 

[Sorcerer]

The West Midlands Trains livery makes me think heavy use of orange does not work on modern rolling stock, I would say in my view the new Overground livery represents the point pass which it starts looking for lack of a better word gross looking if you keep adding more orange to modern rolling stock.

I actually think the West Midlands Railway livery looks decent and has a fair balance for the use of orange, but I also believe it only works on the kind of services that they operate. I couldn't imagine translating that to a high-speed train on intercity services, so for a unified GBR livery it very much wouldn't work. Otherwise I agree, I think there is a certain point where orange just doesn't work. Even the original TGV livery had the orange base colour broken up by grey and white bands running along the length of the train.

 

[Wivenswold]

I'm assuming there have been no updates regarding the livery yet. Only a couple of months to go now.

 

[Tetragon213]

Would it be too antiquated of me to suggest a return to HST BR Blue/Grey?

Regarding current liveries, the NSE livery does look quite timeless indeed. Alternatively, GWR's current green looks quite attractive to me. A solid green paint scheme might also allow savings on bulk-buying a single colour!

As for Orange, I'm not a huge fan of WMT's scheme; I'm actually more fond of their sister company LNWR's Grey and Green scheme. Personally, I feel that trains should go for a more understated colour scheme.

 

[renegademaster]

The main advantage with GWR green is that it hides the dirt.