Advance ticket - leaving at earlier station

[checking123]

Hello, I am looking to travel between London St Pancras and Ebbsfleet International.

I see there is no advance ticket on Sunday, and the ticket is priced at 21.20.

However, there are advance tickets between London St Pancras to Gillingham on the high speed line at significantly cheaper levels - 4.90!

I assume I am permitted to board this train at the scheduled departure time at St Pancras, and depart the train at Ebbsfleet which is on the route? Please advise, thank you.

 

[jfollows]

Hello, I am looking to travel between London St Pancras and Ebbsfleet International.

I see there is no advance ticket on Sunday, and the ticket is priced at 21.20.

However, there are advance tickets between London St Pancras to Gillingham on the high speed line at significantly cheaper levels - 4.90!

I assume I am permitted to board this train at the scheduled departure time at St Pancras, and depart the train at Ebbsfleet which is on the route? Please advise, thank you.

No, you’re not allowed to do this, and if there are barriers at Ebsfleet you may be stopped and be penalised. Generally stopping short on advance tickets is tolerated if it’s not to avoid paying a higher fare, but this is exactly what you’re trying to do. You may get away with it but I’m sure nobody here would advise it.

 

[checking123]

Thank you, appreciate the response

 

[aliceh]

You can get an Advance rail sale single from Gillingham to Ebbsfleet on Sunday for £2.60, so if you don't mind going all the way to Gillingham and back to save a bit of money, you could do that

 

[checking123]

You can get an Advance rail sale single from Gillingham to Ebbsfleet on Sunday for £2.60, so if you don't mind going all the way to Gillingham and back to save a bit of money, you could do that

Yes that’s very true. Adds quite a bit of time but saves a lot of money. Thank you for the excellent suggestion.

 

[PedroHav]

Removed

 

[JonathanH]

I'm not sure why you'd need to go to Gillingham. Just use the Gillingham Ebbsfleet ticket to get through the barrier at Ebbsfleet.

Using another ticket, particularly an advance one, to circumvent a restriction is not wise advice.

In this instance, stopping short on one advance, and starting long on another would effectively be two instances of not following the terms and conditions rather than one.

 

[PedroHav]

Removed

 

[CyrusWuff]

That I understand but who is going to pick up on it?

If the stations involved are gated and the tickets are issued in a format with a barcode, potentially anyone trawling through looking for "missing" scans.

 

[gray1404]

If you want to get 2 advance tickets and leave the train early opt for paper tickets and ask the guard if you can get off early. If they say yes ask them to endorse your ticket. Be prepared to have to use both tickets full and travel back though.

 

[Joe Paxton]

If the stations involved are gated and the tickets are issued in a format with a barcode, potentially anyone trawling through looking for "missing" scans.

Something that'll only ever be indicative. Not unusual to see people struggling with barcoded tickets at the gate, and at busy times for gateline staff to visually inspect them (N.B. not scan them with a device) before letting the passenger(s) through.

 

[Class800]

Using another ticket, particularly an advance one, to circumvent a restriction is not wise advice.

In this instance, stopping short on one advance, and starting long on another would effectively be two instances of not following the terms and conditions rather than one.

But they were suggested actually using both tickets as per their itineraries and accepting a longer journey to do so

 

[DelW]

But they were suggested actually using both tickets as per their itineraries and accepting a longer journey to do so

There was another suggestion (in a post since deleted) not to make the detour to Gillingham and back.

 

[Class800]

There was another suggestion (in a post since deleted) not to make the detour to Gillingham and back.

OK that would not be permitted, but the combination of tickets actually going via Gillingham and back is absolutely allowed, if unusual

 

[PedroHav]

I deleted my previous posts as, inadvertently, I may have contravened the rules for posting on the forum.
However this scenario does show how ridiculous the ticketing is in this country when you can go further then you want to but it's cheaper even when the train is stopping at where you want to get off.
Go further and pay less .....

 

[jadmor]

This question, or one very similar, came up on another forum, and I am sure I can remember that a commuter travelling out of London was prosecuted for leaving his train early when a higher fare would have applied for the shorter journey. I wonder if the hivemind can retrieve this story from the archives?

 

[30907]

However this scenario does show how ridiculous the ticketing is in this country when you can go further then you want to but it's cheaper even when the train is stopping at where you want to get off.
Go further and pay less .....

Not confined to this country.

There are all sorts of bargains with conditions attached - but because they are bargains they aren't applied to every possible purchase.

Hello, I am looking to travel between London St Pancras and Ebbsfleet International.

I see there is no advance ticket on Sunday, and the ticket is priced at 21.20.

There is no Advance ticket for this journey, full stop - or for many others.

This question, or one very similar, came up on another forum, and I am sure I can remember that a commuter travelling out of London was prosecuted for leaving his train early when a higher fare would have applied for the shorter journey. I wonder if the hivemind can retrieve this story from the archives?

Not offhand, but it would almost certainly have involved an Advance ticket being used (as the OP wanted to).

 

[MrJeeves]

This question, or one very similar, came up on another forum, and I am sure I can remember that a commuter travelling out of London was prosecuted for leaving his train early when a higher fare would have applied for the shorter journey. I wonder if the hivemind can retrieve this story from the archives?

This one was rather high profile, and the "fine" (East Coast's statement describes it as an excess fare) was later withdrawn and additional guidance was given out that, unless a higher fare is specifically being avoided, no penalty should be applied.

Getting off train early costs Durham professor £155

A Durham University professor is charged £155 for getting off a train a stop early at Darlington.

www.bbc.co.uk

An East Coast spokesman said: "The terms and conditions of the advance purchase first class ticket, which Professor Evans used, clearly state that breaking a journey en route, or starting from an intermediate station, is not permitted.

"We contacted Prof Evans and, as we accept this was a genuine mistake on his behalf, we have cancelled the excess fare as a gesture of goodwill."

 

[londonteacher]

I have an advance single from Spalding to Rainham tomorrow. SE say that I can’t leave at Chatham which is fair enough as they are the rules. So, I asked if I can buy a new ticket from London Bridge (where my advance has me joining a southeastern service and abandon the journey on my existing advance) to Chatham and they said that I can’t do this. My question is, and not saying I would do so, but ultimately how would anyone know?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have an advance single from Spalding to Rainham tomorrow. SE say that I can’t leave at Chatham which is fair enough as they are the rules. So, I asked if I can buy a new ticket from London Bridge (where my advance has me joining a southeastern service and abandon the journey on my existing advance) to Chatham and they said that I can’t do this. My question is, and not saying I would do so, but ultimately how would anyone know?

No realistic way of detecting that.

 

[Watershed]

I have an advance single from Spalding to Rainham tomorrow. SE say that I can’t leave at Chatham which is fair enough as they are the rules. So, I asked if I can buy a new ticket from London Bridge (where my advance has me joining a southeastern service and abandon the journey on my existing advance) to Chatham and they said that I can’t do this. My question is, and not saying I would do so, but ultimately how would anyone know?

If you have the ticket fulfilled as an eTicket, they'll be able to see whether or not you have scanned it at the London Bridge barriers. Theoretically they can also see the same from the magstripe on a paper ticket but I can't think of many, if any, revenue staff that have the tools to do so anymore.

 

[Joe Paxton]

If you have the ticket fulfilled as an eTicket, they'll be able to see whether or not you have scanned it at the London Bridge barriers. Theoretically they can also see the same from the magstripe on a paper ticket but I can't think of many, if any, revenue staff that have the tools to do so anymore.

How many ever did in times past? It wasn't something I ever saw actually being done in the wild.

@londonteacher, if you don't mind living a tiny bit dangerously you could just buy a single from the last station the train stops at before Chatham (which is probably Rochester) to Chatham, ideally as a paper ticket. In the unlikely event you were to be stopped when leaving Chatham station (e.g. RPIs looking out for people 'short faring') then you'd just explain what you did - as you won't have been seeking to defraud the railway, it should be accepted. (A penalty fare would be very unlikely outcome, but eminently challengeable.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you have the ticket fulfilled as an eTicket, they'll be able to see whether or not you have scanned it at the London Bridge barriers. Theoretically they can also see the same from the magstripe on a paper ticket but I can't think of many, if any, revenue staff that have the tools to do so anymore.

That on its own occasionally wouldn't trigger an investigation as there are too many legitimate reasons for that to be the case, e.g. you got let through manually or the gates weren't in use.

How many ever did in times past? It wasn't something I ever saw actually being done in the wild.

@londonteacher, if you don't mind living a tiny bit dangerously you could just buy a single from the last station the train stops at before Chatham (which is probably Rochester) to Chatham, ideally as a paper ticket. In the unlikely event you were to be stopped when leaving Chatham station (e.g. RPIs looking out for people 'short faring') then you'd just explain what you did - as you won't have been seeking to defraud the railway, it should be accepted. (A penalty fare would be very unlikely outcome, but eminently challengeable.)

With the level of interest in short faring now I really would not do this any more.

 

[AlterEgo]

How many ever did in times past? It wasn't something I ever saw actually being done in the wild.

@londonteacher, if you don't mind living a tiny bit dangerously you could just buy a single from the last station the train stops at before Chatham (which is probably Rochester) to Chatham, ideally as a paper ticket. In the unlikely event you were to be stopped when leaving Chatham station (e.g. RPIs looking out for people 'short faring') then you'd just explain what you did - as you won't have been seeking to defraud the railway, it should be accepted. (A penalty fare would be very unlikely outcome, but eminently challengeable.)

A penalty fare would be the improper disposal. The only redress the railway has is to charge an excess fare up to the appropriate fare which allows break of journey.

I stop short on advances all the time.

 

[saismee]

Realistically all dateline staff will be fine if you just ask to "pop out for a cigarette" because it's a ridiculous thing to deny. As long as the same staff are there when you get back, they'll likely recognise you and let you back in no question without even asking for a ticket. It's all a risk though, and the only official way is two tickets or a ticket that allows break of journey.

What are you breaking at Chatham for? Is it an extended period of time or just to get a sandwich from out of the station?

 

[Hadders]

How many ever did in times past? It wasn't something I ever saw actually being done in the wild.

@londonteacher, if you don't mind living a tiny bit dangerously you could just buy a single from the last station the train stops at before Chatham (which is probably Rochester) to Chatham, ideally as a paper ticket. In the unlikely event you were to be stopped when leaving Chatham station (e.g. RPIs looking out for people 'short faring') then you'd just explain what you did - as you won't have been seeking to defraud the railway, it should be accepted. (A penalty fare would be very unlikely outcome, but eminently challengeable.)

In these days of back office investigations I do think you need to be careful with this sort of approach.

Although not in the public domain, the actual position of the rail industry is:

Although Advance tickets are intended to be used only between the origin and destination stations shown on the ticket, there may be occasions where a passenger joins the correct train but at a later station, or alights earlier than the indicated destination. Although this is not strictly in accordance with the rules for Advance tickets, the Rail industry has agreed that in such cases, no additional fare should be charged (unless there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare).

 

[redreni]

This question, or one very similar, came up on another forum, and I am sure I can remember that a commuter travelling out of London was prosecuted for leaving his train early when a higher fare would have applied for the shorter journey. I wonder if the hivemind can retrieve this story from the archives?

Interesting. Surely the railway's only remedy if a passenger breaks their journey (including starting or finishing short) when not permitted is to charge an excess fare (to the cheapest walk-up ticket that would have been valid for the journey made)?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Interesting. Surely the railway's only remedy if a passenger breaks their journey (including starting or finishing short) when not permitted is to charge an excess fare (to the cheapest walk-up ticket that would have been valid for the journey made)?

Think I'm correct in saying that Northern, rightly or wrongly, have sometimes asserted, in such circumstances, that you don't then have a valid ticket whatsoever, and will then charge you the full Anytime Day Single fare, plus a three figure admin fee on top.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Think I'm correct in saying that Northern, rightly or wrongly, have sometimes asserted, in such circumstances, that you don't then have a valid ticket whatsoever, and will then charge you the full Anytime Day Single fare, plus a three figure admin fee on top.

They have indeed. The problem is that there's an interpretation of the Regulation of Railways Act offence* that would allow that to be prosecuted even though the NRCoT states the excess is the correct remedy. Thus despite this a prosecution could succeed, though I don't know if one ever has or if it's always been settled. Obviously the railway shouldn't be prosecuting people when its policy says otherwise, but the law would seem to allow it. It's a bit like a hypothetical situation where Tesco might say "if you leave our premises without paying for your goods, e.g. you forget to scan an item on self scan, we will allow you to pay for it on discovery plus a surcharge of £20" or something like that (I'm not aware of any such policy, it's mere hypotheticals) - the existence of that policy wouldn't bar them from pressing charges of theft.

A Penalty Fare is definitely wrong, though, and any appeal should succeed, at least at the third level at which point they actually bother reading it.

* I'd quote it but legislation.gov.uk is down at present, but in essence it's the "without having paid the correct fare" bit.

 

[redreni]

They have indeed. The problem is that there's an interpretation of the Regulation of Railways Act offence* that would allow that to be prosecuted even though the NRCoT states the excess is the correct remedy. Thus despite this a prosecution could succeed, though I don't know if one ever has or if it's always been settled. Obviously the railway shouldn't be prosecuting people when its policy says otherwise, but the law would seem to allow it. It's a bit like a hypothetical situation where Tesco might say "if you leave our premises without paying for your goods, e.g. you forget to scan an item on self scan, we will allow you to pay for it on discovery plus a surcharge of £20" or something like that (I'm not aware of any such policy, it's mere hypotheticals) - the existence of that policy wouldn't bar them from pressing charges of theft.

A Penalty Fare is definitely wrong, though, and any appeal should succeed, at least at the third level at which point they actually bother reading it.

* I'd quote it but legislation.gov.uk is down at present, but in essence it's the "without having paid the correct fare" bit.

Well, the issue is, a lot of people aren't going to be in a position to defend this as robustly as they possibly could - indeed, they might be well advised to just say sorry and ask for leniency rather than run a defence that might or might not succeed.

It seems like a situation where a defence against an alleged RORA offence would be possible, though, because presumably we'd be talking about a situation where an RPI or somebody else had inspected the passenger's ticket and detected that they had started short or were finishing short. If the passenger then offered to pay an excess fare in accordance with the NRCoT and the member of staff (contrary to the NRCoT) didn't let them, then the only reason the passenger hasn't paid the correct fare is because the Railway didn't let them. And it's no good saying they should have paid it earlier, because the situation where the excess isn't paid until the passenger breaks their journey when not permitted is envisaged and condoned by the NRCoT.

I suspect in practice it might come down to whether the court thought the passenger had made a mistake, offered to pay the excess and not been allowed to (no RORA offence as no mens rea, and the court could say to the prosecution that the TOC should have accepted the excess fare when offered), or if the court thought the passenger knew what they were doing and set out to travel without paying the correct fare.