Livery under Great British Railways

[aron2smith]

Less is more. All you need is the double arrow logo. Especially as the 'Great' British stuff is far too reminiscent of MAGA.

Exactly, we'll end up shorting it to British Rail anyway eventually. The 'great' bit is as unnecessary as the blue bit of that logo. I'm never saying the great part of the name.

 

[Wivenswold]

White with red trim makes sense for the Eastern Region with LNER and GA's liveries needing very little immediate adjustments and GN's services already predominately white, maybe red doors for them (as happened with GA's 321s). Northern may have to be split into two areas if we're going down the old BR region's path.

 

[Leyland Bus]

They would definitely roll out at least one

Here are some of my other predictions, ordered from most to least likely:

• All trains would simply be de-branded and re-branded with Rail Symbol 2 and possibly "Great British Railways" next to it in Rail Alphabet 2.
• The livery will have some sort of a white background, to reduce costs of reliverying everything, and to use as a template for something better (like what East Coast envisioned with their white livery).
• In the long term, there would be more elaborative liveries, especially those that will be introduced post-renationalization (i.e. Class 897)
• regional identities might be retained, especially with already renationalized companies: blue/purple for trans-pennine, red and white for eastern, etc... Could just be a temporary cost-saving measure until they roll out said comprehensive livery
• Hopefully some "heritage" liveries all across the board. They're repainting them anyway, so why not?
• Return of the swallow and toothpaste? They still own the trademarks!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Mar 2025 ==

Oops, missed the rest of the first sentence, I meant:

I certainly hope that that is the path they go down. I am of the opinion that the "Great" isn't needed and is a left over from the jingoistic Johnson era, so just "British Railways" but frankly, most folk, regardless of age will likely just call it British Rail, so they ought to just do that and have done with it...

 

[Wivenswold]

Start with British Railways and if it all goes well, add the Great. Otherwise you're just handing easy headlines to the press.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Start with British Railways and if it all goes well, add the Great. Otherwise you're just handing easy headlines to the press.

I'm also pretty confident that curly sandwiches are about to make a miraculous comeback

 

[12LDA28C]

I certainly hope that that is the path they go down. I am of the opinion that the "Great" isn't needed and is a left over from the jingoistic Johnson era, so just "British Railways" but frankly, most folk, regardless of age will likely just call it British Rail, so they ought to just do that and have done with it...

Or maybe simply something to do with the fact that we live in Great Britain, no?

 

[Leyland Bus]

Or maybe simply something to do with the fact that we live in Great Britain, no?

That argument has been done to death on this forum...

 

[Class15]

Something I'm not at all fond of because what's nice about the stuff we have now is different livery on different units now it's same livery on all units

Presumably you’re saying that from an enthusiast’s perspective, particularly as your username says ‘YouTube’. For the travelling public it is far better to have a single identity (or a few different ones, see Sectorisation) than a fragmented system which looks disorganised. It’s those views that matter, not YouTubers.

 

[BrakeCoach]

Presumably you’re saying that from an enthusiast’s perspective, particularly as your username says ‘YouTube’. For the travelling public it is far better to have a single identity (or a few different ones, see Sectorisation) than a fragmented system which looks disorganised. It’s those views that matter, not YouTubers.

However, its worth mentioning that it would be intuitive for different services to have different liveries.

I certainly hope that that is the path they go down. I am of the opinion that the "Great" isn't needed and is a left over from the jingoistic Johnson era, so just "British Railways" but frankly, most folk, regardless of age will likely just call it British Rail, so they ought to just do that and have done with it...

Absolutely. "Great British Railways" is a mouthful and a bit corny.

 

[Pete_uk]

What's wrong with a lion and a large wheel logo?

 

[eldomtom2]

Hopefully some "heritage" liveries all across the board. They're repainting them anyway, so why not?

It would be nice to see some pre-double arrow heritage liveries. Get creative.

 

[43096]

What's wrong with a lion and a large wheel logo?

It would look naff...

 

[Recessio]

What's wrong with a lion and a large wheel logo?

Doesn't lend itself well to a modern logo as it doesn't scale well with different sizes (eg mobile vs paper vs side of a train). A flat vectorised "corporate memphis" version maybe would work? But the double arrows are synonymous with rail travel even decades after the demise of BR - it's a simple symbol, scales well digitally and physically, easy to recognise at a glance.

 

[TFT YouTube]

Presumably you’re saying that from an enthusiast’s perspective, particularly as your username says ‘YouTube’. For the travelling public it is far better to have a single identity (or a few different ones, see Sectorisation) than a fragmented system which looks disorganised. It’s those views that matter, not YouTubers.

Like BrakeCoach is saying, it would be nicer to also have separate liveries because tbh. It's not even just the fact I do Youtube. For a regular passenger; they get on the wrong train, they wouldn't know because they all look the same! So honestly it's more inconvenient that it is about Youtube.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Like BrakeCoach is saying, it would be nicer to also have separate liveries because tbh. It's not even just the fact I do Youtube. For a regular passenger; they get on the wrong train, they wouldn't know because they all look the same! So honestly it's more inconvenient that it is about Youtube.

All London buses are red and pretty soon all Manchester buses will be yellow... Departure boards are there for a reason or people can ask platform staff, so the all look the same argument doesn't really hold up... Folk should simply pay attention.

 

[croydontangle]

For a regular passenger; they get on the wrong train, they wouldn't know because they all look the same!

Yes all the trains being the same colour makes the lay traveller immune to any station announcements. Or platform displays. Or displays on the outside of trains. Or displays on the inside of trains. Or announcements on the inside of trains. Or maps. Or timetables. The tens of millions who use Waterloo or Charing Cross or Glasgow Queen Street or any other major station served by a single operator are constantly ending up in the wrong place!

 

[Bletchleyite]

All London buses are red and pretty soon all Manchester buses will be yellow... Departure boards are there for a reason or people can ask platform staff, so the all look the same argument doesn't really hold up... Folk should simply pay attention.

Have a look round Europe for a minute and let me know which of the nationalised railways has all the trains in an identical livery? Not that many of them do, and where they do (e.g. Nederlandse Spoorwegen) they're all just "trains" anyway.

Ceske Drahy might be the only one where there are different train categories in a meaningful sense but they're all exactly the same colour?

 

[ollyexe2808]

Have a look round Europe for a minute and let me know which of the nationalised railways has all the trains in an identical livery? Not that many of them do, and where they do (e.g. Nederlandse Spoorwegen) they're all just "trains" anyway.

Ceske Drahy might be the only one where there are different train categories in a meaningful sense but they're all exactly the same colour?

Came here to say this - Germany has Regio/ICE/IC and state liveries as another example. I actually foresee more nuanced local branding with an overarching GBR and Double-arrow combination. Anyway, as it stands as someone living in Devon and Cornwall, there isn't much differentiation, with all local services by GWR and longer distance being GWR/SWR/CrossCountry - ultimately the destination and type of service is most important.

 

[Class15]

Have a look round Europe for a minute and let me know which of the nationalised railways has all the trains in an identical livery? Not that many of them do, and where they do (e.g. Nederlandse Spoorwegen) they're all just "trains" anyway.

Ceske Drahy might be the only one where there are different train categories in a meaningful sense but they're all exactly the same colour?

DB has very few liveries but they’re not all the same. That is probably the ideal position…

 

[Leyland Bus]

Have a look round Europe for a minute and let me know which of the nationalised railways has all the trains in an identical livery? Not that many of them do, and where they do (e.g. Nederlandse Spoorwegen) they're all just "trains" anyway.

Ceske Drahy might be the only one where there are different train categories in a meaningful sense but they're all exactly the same colour?

Well in that case, you've just discovered why Britain was knackered in the 1970s. It wasn't the strikes, all the trains were the same colour and everyone was going to wrong places...

Northern are running 323s in WMT livery, they don't run around empty because people don't recognise the livery and won't get on...

Because people look to see where the train goes by the boards and destination screens not the train colour...

 

[TFT YouTube]

Yes all the trains being the same colour makes the lay traveller immune to any station announcements. Or platform displays. Or displays on the outside of trains. Or displays on the inside of trains. Or announcements on the inside of trains. Or maps. Or timetables. The tens of millions who use Waterloo or Charing Cross or Glasgow Queen Street or any other major station served by a single operator are constantly ending up in the wrong place!

Yeah but people are able to ignore them if they're rushing about thus getting the wrong train is my point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2025 ==

All London buses are red and pretty soon all Manchester buses will be yellow... Departure boards are there for a reason or people can ask platform staff, so the all look the same argument doesn't really hold up... Folk should simply pay attention.

Read above

 

[Class15]

Yeah but people are able to ignore them if they're rushing about thus getting the wrong train is my point.

I’m not understanding this exactly. At Taunton, GWR operates services, leaving from the same direction, which diverge pretty quickly and go to completely different destinations (Cardiff vs London).

 

[12LDA28C]

All London buses are red and pretty soon all Manchester buses will be yellow... Departure boards are there for a reason or people can ask platform staff, so the all look the same argument doesn't really hold up... Folk should simply pay attention.

Departure boards are not infallible. Even at the height of BR corporate blue blandness, IC trains were branded 'Inter City' to differentiate them from an all-stations commuter train. I'm pretty sure that making all trains look identical when GBR comes in would lead to some confusion amongst passengers who have been used to variety in TOC branding for the last almost 30 years.

 

[Meerkat]

For the travelling public it is far better to have a single identity

Why? That adds confusion and loses brand loyalty. GBR will inevitably get a bad reputation, whether it deserves it or not, so negate that by having local brands.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Departure boards are not infallible. Even at the height of BR corporate blue blandness, IC trains were branded 'Inter City' to differentiate them from an all-stations commuter train. I'm pretty sure that making all trains look identical when GBR comes in would lead to some confusion amongst passengers who have been used to variety in TOC branding for the last almost 30 years.

When I lived in Bicester 1991-1993, it was virtually a weekly occurrence to find the NSE liveried Oxford to Bicester Town DMU included a few confused folk who'd boarded it instead of their Regional Railways liveried Worcester DMU service. One platform, two trains...

I have a 1988 photo of IC liveried 47515 bringing a rake of Mk2s into Paddington. The coaches all alternated IC / NSE / IC / NSE / IC / NSE / etc. Goodness knows who did that in the sidings!
Presumably the train's occupants were the correct ones...

 

[Sorcerer]

Personally if we're not going to have a single livery for all units (which realistically is quite difficult, I understand that) then I think South West Trains kind of had it right where there is a common colour scheme that changes depending on the service type. Red for commuter, blue for semi-fast/regional, and white for express trains.

Have a look round Europe for a minute and let me know which of the nationalised railways has all the trains in an identical livery? Not that many of them do, and where they do (e.g. Nederlandse Spoorwegen) they're all just "trains" anyway.

Ceske Drahy might be the only one where there are different train categories in a meaningful sense but they're all exactly the same colour?

Are SBB trains not all the same colour with different service categories? Or is the difference between services like InterRegio and InterCity hardly distinguishable enough to be meaningful?

 

[saismee]

people look to see where the train goes by the boards and destination screens not the train colour...

Hilariously, the current problem with people getting the wrong train is because they ignore the branding and livery. Operator-exclusive tickets won't be a thing with GBR, so a consistent livery would be even better.
Saying people are too stupid to get on the correct train because they "all look the same" is not a very smart sentence. Many stations are primarily served by one operator and people have no issues with that. I highly doubt most people are struggling at London Liverpool Street because all the trains are red and white!

Something I would like to point out about the article I posted above:

The trains themselves are unlikely to be repainted due to cost constraints, sources said. Instead, the current branding will be removed and replaced with a livery that could include the white, red and blue of the Union Jack.

As I said in my edited post, I'm unsure how a train can be given a new livery without being repainted. Covering up branding isn't exactly a new livery, is it?

I do believe a sectorised livery would be ideal, primarily to help customers differentiate stoppers and express services. This would only work if the stock was allocated correctly, of course.

 

[12LDA28C]

Hilariously, the current problem with people getting the wrong train is because they ignore the branding and livery. Operator-exclusive tickets won't be a thing with GBR, so a consistent livery would be even better.
Saying people are too stupid to get on the correct train because they "all look the same" is not a very smart sentence. Many stations are primarily served by one operator and people have no issues with that. I highly doubt most people are struggling at London Liverpool Street because all the trains are red and white!

And many stations are served by multiple operators where the colour of the train gives an easily identifiable indication of whose train it is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2025 ==

As I said in my edited post, I'm unsure how a train can be given a new livery without being repainted. Covering up branding isn't exactly a new livery, is it?

Clearly you've never heard of vinyl being applied, which is rather cheaper on railway vehicles than a full repaint.

 

[43096]

Clearly you've never heard of vinyl being applied, which is rather cheaper on railway vehicles than a full repaint.

Cheaper, but not cheap. And vinyl gives its own problems, particularly with water getting trapped behind the vinyl sheets causing bodywork damage.

 

[ollyexe2808]

And many stations are served by multiple operators where the colour of the train gives an easily identifiable indication of whose train it is.

True...but let me take Exeter St Davids as my local station, it is served by Crosscountry, GWR and SWR. I know a lot of people at work who don't often get the train and regularly just get one for a one-off. In all instances I have witnessed personally, the key question people ask is "does this train go to [insert station here]" or "Is this the 10:33 train to....". The average person is neither looking at the colour nor company, just if it is their train arriving at the right time and in the right location. PIS and other identifying signs on the train/platforms are often more likely to be significant.