Livery under Great British Railways

[Helvellyn]

NSE initially didn't want its new colours on any unrefurbished trains or non-corridor units (though some did sneak through) opting just for the symbol and brand name with Blue/Grey, which explains why it took 10 years to banish BR Blue and Blue/Grey trains from its nenetwork.

InterCity was the same with non-air conditioned Mark 2s. A handful of BFKs slipped through (Motorail, Charter and CrossCountry) but nothing else. So in the late 1980s you had all the named 'Scot' CrossCountry services operating with Mark 2D/2E coaches (plus Mk 1 RBRs and BGs) in InterCity but the sets used on the Glasgow/Edinburgh to Paignton service all blue/grey with Mark 2C TSOs and BFKs.

 

[generalnerd]

I did like the local livery variants for Regional Railways, but I don't think we really need to go much further than that.

I wasn’t aware that regional railways had local variants (other than merseyrail) but it turns out they have quite a few. I was talking about the sector as a whole feeling more personal even if it was just main BR without the freight, London commuter routes and intercity routes, but having some localised liveries is a plus in my book

 

[Meerkat]

Because it's a network, and if run as such it allows journeys to be made much more effectively that aren't simple direct ones, and while direct services to London are the biggest market these are still important.

Intercity isnt a network, its a set of different routes and markets.

Because Merseyrail and London Overground are largely self-contained networks with little connection to the national network

Certainly not true for London Overground! SouthEastern is probably more self contained!

 

[mangad]

Because Merseyrail and London Overground are largely self-contained networks with little connection to the national network, and also because they are already under control by the local authorities, so from a practical standpoint the juice wouldn't be worth the squeeze to bring them into DfT control compared to GBR which spans different regions and networks.

Merseyrail and Transport for London services are both staying outside Great British Railways. And, of course, Transport for Wales, Scotrail and the Caledonian Sleeper are all devolved, so are also out of scope.

I do personally think you are overestimating how much passengers will care about localised branding, but if that's your genuine preference then that's okay. I just don't think passengers will care about having a local brand for their local railway services compared to just wanting a reliable efficient operator with no ambiguity on who runs what.

Suspect politicians care a bit more about it, but Andy Burnham's very keen on getting Bee Network branding on trains because he sees the value in presenting a joined up system with buses and trams. West Midlands are already on that route. In major urban areas it's not about trains, buses, trams any more. It's about everything working as an integrated cohesive system. Great British Railways will be an operator but their brand is inevitably going to take a back seat.

 

[Transilien]

Because Merseyrail and London Overground are largely self-contained networks with little connection to the national network, and also because they are already under control by the local authorities, so from a practical standpoint the juice wouldn't be worth the squeeze to bring them into DfT control compared to GBR which spans different regions and networks.

London Overground is not self-contained at all with trains shearing many stations and sections of track with other train operators. Merseyrail however is practically self contained with a few small exceptions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Intercity isnt a network, its a set of different routes and markets.

Which make up a network.

 

[Mikey C]

Suspect politicians care a bit more about it, but Andy Burnham's very keen on getting Bee Network branding on trains because he sees the value in presenting a joined up system with buses and trams. West Midlands are already on that route. In major urban areas it's not about trains, buses, trams any more. It's about everything working as an integrated cohesive system. Great British Railways will be an operator but their brand is inevitably going to take a back seat.

While having common (or at least related) liveries can be beneficial, integrated ticketing and coordination is ultimately more important than the livery.

While in London there are price differences between individual tickets on TfL services (including Overground and Elizabeth Line) and "National Rail" services, they both come under the same travelcard, contactless and capping systems, so that for a passenger it's seamless, even if the trains are a completely different colour.

 

[mangad]

While having common (or at least related) liveries can be beneficial, integrated ticketing and coordination is ultimately more important than the livery.

While in London there are price differences between individual tickets on TfL services (including Overground and Elizabeth Line) and "National Rail" services, they both come under the same travelcard, contactless and capping systems, so that for a passenger it's seamless, even if the trains are a completely different colour.

I agree to some extent. But ultimately London is a long standing system that people know and understand. We're talking decades of ingrained knowledge there.

But that integration is not the case anywhere else. Outside of London everyone is having to demonstrate things are changing. That everything is coming together. And branding is going to be a huge part of that. Your train now painted with the same logo as your bus, says something to the public. And that message is important. Hey, there's people in Manchester who don't even know you can get joined tram and train tickets. Or that a ticket with MANCHESTER CTRL ZONE on it gets you on the tram's city zone. Stand at Piccadilly and you can watch people who have just got off a local train go off and buy a tram ticket. This is the stuff that's existed for decades! The messaging is definitely important. And unified branding will definitely help with that.

 

[Rick1984]

What were the local varieties of Regional Railways?

 

[sprinterguy]

What were the local varieties of Regional Railways?

Greater Manchester
West Yorkshire 'Metro'
West Midlands 'Centro'
Tyne and Wear
Merseyrail

North West 'green stripe' as well in the broader sense, on the 156s that were refurbed (and a handful of 309s) for that Train Operating Unit towards the end.

 

[RailWonderer]

As this thread is speculative I thought I would get creative and apply the different colours we have at the moment and translate them to GBR station and on-train logos, with some renamings of franchises. I didn't use RA2 because I'm not a fan of it, but on request I can redo these in RA2. Intercity I have applied only for operations that only operate IC services. I have included XC as Intercity but the Brum - Leicester - Stansted should be transferred to East Midlands branding to neaten things out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I definitely prefer the modern look of that font (whatever it is) over clumsy, ugly RA2.

 

[RailWonderer]

I definitely prefer the modern look of that font (whatever it is) over clumsy, ugly RA2.

Classic Frutiger, which is used the world over, and by the NHS.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Merseyrail and Transport for London services are both staying outside Great British Railways. And, of course, Transport for Wales, Scotrail and the Caledonian Sleeper are all devolved, so are also out of scope.

I don't think that is quite true.
The GBR umbrella will contain TfW and Scotrail, though continuing with local management and funding.
Merseyrail and TfL (notably LO and EL) have a GBR content, even if management and funding is devolved.
They all run over NR infrastructure, at least in part, and issue GB-wide tickets.
The GBR legislation will tell us what its limit of control is going to be in devolved areas.

I suspect the May branding will only apply to the GBR change process (currently GBRTT), with maybe a few token operational examples.
I think it will only apply to DFTO operations (the current 4 TOCs and any new ones transferring in).
Where Network Rail fits into this is a key issue - GBR is not just the passenger TOCs.

 

[mangad]

I don't think that is quite true.
The GBR umbrella will contain TfW and Scotrail, though continuing with local management and funding.

GBR will obviously operate in Wales and Scotland. But it is not necessarily the operator of the services the public. The Public Ownership Act means the operator has to be either owned by the appropriate devolved government, or one jointly owned with Westminster. There's more information in this speech from the Transport Secretary from February.

Merseyrail and TfL (notably LO and EL) have a GBR content, even if management and funding is devolved.

This is why I said "services" when referring to Merseyrail and TfL. By which I mean the trains people get on. Operation of services remains with the relevant Mayor. Both London and Merseyside have infrastructure they maintain that's not part of GBR, and that remains with them. Again, all mentioned in the speech above.

GBR is going to have to work very closely with the devolved operators, but I seriously doubt you'll be seeing Merseyrail and TfL trains being painted in a GBR livery any time soon.

 

[generalnerd]

A theory I’ve been thinking of is that GBR could take a lot of design inspiration from LNER, especially considering that LNER has received a lot of branding investment. I wouldn’t be surprised if the LNER marketing/branding/mascots get transferred to GBR when it officially launches.

 

[Flinn Reed]

If GBR were to keep regional brands across different parts of the country, this doesn't necessarily have to be categorised as the current TOCs are now.

In many cases a route is part of a particular franchise for operational reasons rather than geography. For example the Reading-Gatwick line would fit better under SWR, but it makes sense to share diesel trains and maintenance with the Thames Valley lines, as most SWR routes nearby are electrified.

But with the whole network under common GBR ownership, you could separate the brands from management/maintenance/etc, and have more than one brand at the same depots where it makes sense to do so.

I also think categorising routes by regional brand may work better than by service type, since many services cover different purposes on different sections. If an Intercity brand were to return, the main routes like Avanti and LNER are all entirely intercity. But for example GWR/XC long-distance routes basically become local services in the West Country.

 

[Meerkat]

Which make up a network.

Only in the way various airlines make up a network of air travel.
I am not seeing the marketing gain from losing the line brands for a bland national intercity one. But do see the damage that 'Intercity trains are rubbish' headlines will do to all lines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only in the way various airlines make up a network of air travel.

Not even remotely similar given that airlines tend to be duplicative and offer a far wider range of direct services than the railway does.

I am not seeing the marketing gain from losing the line brands for a bland national intercity one.

People are more likely to make connectional journeys if the network feels "as one". To me, aside from financial savings, this is the main benefit of GBR. I guess you therefore are opposed to GBR and would prefer to stick with franchising?

And as I said, "intercity trains are rubbish" means they need fixed. Though one thing that might make sense would be not to apply the GBR InterCity brand until it is fixed - for example don't apply it to the Midland Mainline until the new stock is all in service, as that's likely to be painful. Virgin did a bit of this - unrefurbished stock didn't get the Virgin branding. I think I'd start with LNER as while it isn't perfect (fare increase trial) it generally gives a good impression.

 

[irish_rail]

. If an Intercity brand were to return, the main routes like Avanti and LNER are all entirely intercity. But for example GWR/XC long-distance routes basically become local services in the West Country.

Got to take issue with this, the GWR and XC routes into Cornwall (the mainline at least) have great similarities with the Avanti route from Chester to Holyhead and the LNER routes to both Inverness and Aberdeen.

 

[vuzzeho]

I have a lot of confidence in the final designs. The designers are very skilled and have worked on some really great (dare I say iconic) liveries and brands before. I can't say much more than that for now, but I have a lot of faith in these designers.

 

[Meerkat]

People are more likely to make connectional journeys if the network feels "as one". To me, aside from financial savings, this is the main benefit of GBR. I guess you therefore are opposed to GBR and would prefer to stick with franchising?

That’s just ticketing rules, and can be done under franchising.
I am opposed to nationalisation - I think it wrecks pretty much every industry it touches, and giving more power to the people who broke the railway seems perverse. Therefore not even convinced that there will be savings overall (not ones that aren’t cuts anyway).
It will get hammered by the media and just end up as a damaged brand. Every disruption story will be ‘Intercity is knackered again’ and headlines travel even further and louder in a social media world.

And as I said, "intercity trains are rubbish" means they need fixed.

But that isn’t realistically going to happen - there will always be a bad line feeding bad publicity for GBR.

 

[Transilien]

I am opposed to nationalisation - I think it wrecks pretty much every industry it touches, and giving more power to the people who broke the railway seems perverse. Therefore not even convinced that there will be savings overall (not ones that aren’t cuts anyway).
It will get hammered by the media and just end up as a damaged brand. Every disruption story will be ‘Intercity is knackered again’ and headlines travel even further and louder in a social media world.

This isn't the 'wether GBR is good or bad' thread anyway, it's just the branding one. You could set up your own thread if you want to discuss if nationalisation is a good idea in the first place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This isn't the 'wether GBR is good or bad' thread anyway, it's just the branding one. You could set up your own thread if you want to discuss if nationalisation is a good idea in the first place.

I think it's fair to say that if GBR is a given (which as far as this thread goes it is) then having different line based branding and a fragmented network in terms of how it faces the customer is a bad idea. If they were genuinely different companies that's a different thing entirely and I'd agree isn't really for this thread.

 

[RailWonderer]

That’s just ticketing rules, and can be done under franchising.
I am opposed to nationalisation - I think it wrecks pretty much every industry it touches, and giving more power to the people who broke the railway seems perverse. Therefore not even convinced that there will be savings overall (not ones that aren’t cuts anyway).
It will get hammered by the media and just end up as a damaged brand. Every disruption story will be ‘Intercity is knackered again’ and headlines travel even further and louder in a social media world.

But that isn’t realistically going to happen - there will always be a bad line feeding bad publicity for GBR.

Going OT but totally agree. Franchises were at least accountable to the DfT and had to show they were providing a better service but the govt can sit on their backsides and blame anything they want and provide a worse service and hike fares for no reason other than 'we don't have the money'.

 

[Sorcerer]

I am opposed to nationalisation - I think it wrecks pretty much every industry it touches, and giving more power to the people who broke the railway seems perverse. Therefore not even convinced that there will be savings overall (not ones that aren’t cuts anyway).

Privatisation doesn't exactly have the Midas Touch for industries either, and the demonstrable reality now is that it hasn't worked for the railways in it's current form. If Thatcher was against privatising the railways, then I don't see how anyone can even humour the idea beyond ideological reasons. Japan Railways might seem like a shining example of it working out, but despite what many would have you believe they are far from perfect.

Nationalisation meanwhile does not have to be bad, and with proper management it can easily not be. Even BR managed reasonably well with what little it had, and InterCity even managed to turn a profit. Switzerland also proves that state-owned railways can be run efficiently, and for GBR I think they are a model to be followed.

It will get hammered by the media and just end up as a damaged brand. Every disruption story will be ‘Intercity is knackered again’ and headlines travel even further and louder in a social media world.

If the service is bad it will be hammered anyway, so your local branding idea isn't going to save the railway from the consequences of bad management. But seeing as you're against nationalisation in principle, I now have to ask whether you're even arguing in good faith at this point? If you think GBR is a bad idea then the degree of branding will be very much irrelevant to you because you're against GBR in principle, so by now we're all just going round in circles.

 

[Wivenswold]

To bring this back to the topic, I think a national brand/livery is on the way that will be applied universally, eventually. Lines will have individual identifiers (like we had in NSE days) areas like mine, East Anglia will probably have one identifier because we share a fleet with West Anglia so we'll probably get something like "GBR - Anglia".

Personally, I'd prefer either larger BR-style regions with different liveries or the sectorisation approach with Regional, London & South East and Intercity brands. But I'm convinced the DfT will want to cover everything in one livery of blue, white and/or red.

As someone who grew up in the BR Blue era, I should warn that things could get dull pretty soon.

 

[generalnerd]

Personally, I'd prefer either larger BR-style regions with different liveries or the sectorisation approach with Regional, London & South East and Intercity brands. But I'm convinced the DfT will want to cover everything in one livery of blue, white and/or red.

I could be wrong here but I think they’ll have an intercity brand so they can charge premiums, but that all other brands will be one big union.

I too fear it becoming repetitive, but it will look glorious having every train in the same livery (for about a year then people will get bored and the public start hating anything in whatever livery they end up wearing)

 

[irish_rail]

I could be wrong here but I think they’ll have an intercity brand so they can charge premiums, but that all other brands will be one big union.

I too fear it becoming repetitive, but it will look glorious having every train in the same livery (for about a year then people will get bored and the public start hating anything in whatever livery they end up wearing)

Yet in GWR land all the trains are just green anyway (OK except the Voyagers), and , unlike the rest of the country, the railway fleet looks relatively smart as a result. When I travel further afield it always strikes me how bad the mish mash of colour schemes look in the north. OK, for an enthusiast one colour scheme isn't great, but from a business or travellers perspective I think a single livery base would be a good thing, with, as others have said minor variations for differing areas and operations.

 

[generalnerd]

Yet in GWR land all the trains are just green anyway (OK except the Voyagers), and , unlike the rest of the country, the railway fleet looks relatively smart as a result. When I travel further afield it always strikes me how bad the mish mash of colour schemes look in the north. OK, for an enthusiast one colour scheme isn't great, but from a business or travellers perspective I think a single livery base would be a good thing, with, as others have said minor variations for differing areas and operations.

I do firmly agree with your point, I was more thinking from a customer and train enthusiast viewpoint. If I put my business and sensible person head on it makes perfect sense, although I do think we will see some livery differentiations for intercity/busy commuter/all other services