Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

[CapitalStar378]

TfW are now saying that the "new trains" on the Coryton/Caerphilly - Penarth services will be introduced "later this summer", "as they are not quite ready yet".

They will also be running Penarth - Caerphilly trains fast/non-stop between Queen St - Caerphilly from 24 March

Better not send anymore 150s or 153s to SIMS just yet........

Coryton and Penarth line services

Our services on the Coryton and Penarth lines haven’t been good enough.

news.tfw.wales

Unfortunately this is just not good enough, TfW keep kicking the can down the road on new train introduction and finding excuses for their poor performance. This press release has only been put out because they've been shamed into it by 3 of the Coryton line stations being in the top ten of most cancelled services in the UK.

I don't have faith in their management of the network and think that a better replacement for James Price should be found. It all looks very amateurish to a lay person.

 

[Cardiff123]

Bearing in mind the "new trains" (eg. the 756s) have been sat in sidings in Barry for 18 months, what more needs to be done and how much longer do they need to "get these trains ready"?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Bearing in mind the "new trains" (eg. the 756s) have been sat in sidings in Barry for 18 months, what more needs to be done and how much longer do they need to "get these trains ready"?

I have got the impression it is the wiring up the valleys (from Cardiff) that is holding things up.

Meaning 231s are deputising on routes with little electrification complete.

Also meaning 756s are only just now getting on to routes (TAM lines) with enough electrification for them to be able operate. But not yet enough electrification for the 398s meant for them to be of use. I am not saying the 398s are ready for service though !.

 

[John R]

That link already doesn't work, but returns a 404 error!

 

[Peter Sarf]

That link already doesn't work, but returns a 404 error!

What link ?.
What have I inadvertently linked .

 

[John R]

What link ?.
What have I inadvertently linked .

I was referring to post #2400, which I note has now been edited and the link works.

 

[Caaardiff]

A commitment to you:

• In the short term we will be introducing a new plan from 24 March that will see these services run fast between Caerphilly and Cardiff Queen Street. This will create more recovery time in the schedules and creates a fast service into Cardiff for Caerphilly customers. While we will be taking out stops at Lisvane, Llanishen and Heath High Level as these are connected to the Coryton line, these stations still have four trains per hour in each direction. This will be on a trial basis.

Since when have Lisvane, Llanishen and Heath High level been connected to the Coryton line? Am I missing something here?

 

[John R]

The comment about tight turnaround at Penarth is interesting, given the one intervention which would improve the situation (the “arrival” platform) appears to have been descoped.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Since when have Lisvane, Llanishen and Heath High level been connected to the Coryton line? Am I missing something here?

My interpretation of that (rather confusingly worded) quote from TfW was that Penarth-Caerphilly services interwork with Penarth-Coryton and are therefore 'connected' in that delays to one would also impact the other.

 

[WAB]

Since when have Lisvane, Llanishen and Heath High level been connected to the Coryton line? Am I missing something here?

The diagrams are Penarth - Coryton - Penarth - Caerphilly - Penarth, are they not?

 

[MikePJ]

The delay to the introduction to these units is because of the electrification - it should have gone live in November, and then was kicked back to February, and then we got very close to it and for some reason it was delayed again. It's likely to be to do with safety assessments for the interface between the wires and the surrounding buildings and structures, but we haven't had any formal confirmation of this yet. The Coryton service runs Coryton-Penarth-Caerphilly and return which is why Lisvane, Llanishen and Heath are mentioned in the press release.

 

[Caaardiff]

Thanks all. Wasn't aware of that. Slightly misleading wording as it sounds like they are saying those stations are on the Coryton line. A passenger wouldn't necessarily know about the diagram workings.

 

[Cardiff123]

The delay to the introduction to these units is because of the electrification - it should have gone live in November, and then was kicked back to February, and then we got very close to it and for some reason it was delayed again. It's likely to be to do with safety assessments for the interface between the wires and the surrounding buildings and structures, but we haven't had any formal confirmation of this yet. The Coryton service runs Coryton-Penarth-Caerphilly and return which is why Lisvane, Llanishen and Heath are mentioned in the press release.

Sounds like the switch on has been delayed indefinitely to me.
So "this spring" has become "later this Summer", what's the chance of summer becoming autumn and autumn becoming winter? Seems very likely. It's also the easiest route for TfW to bustitute if the 150s have gone in the bin and so they have no trains left to run any services on these routes.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It's also the easiest route for TfW to bustitute if the 150s have gone in the bin and so they have no trains left to run any services on these routes.

Isn't it also the side where things like 153s, 158s and 175s are/were cleared? If so, possibility of using 197s up there too if they have nothing but those and FLIRTs left? Of course, they would only do that if they have given up on the electrification altogether (but the 'delayed indefinitely' at the start of your post seemed to be implying that).

 

[Cardiff123]

Isn't it also the side where things like 153s, 158s and 175s are/were cleared? If so, possibility of using 197s up there too if they have nothing but those and FLIRTs left? Of course, they would only do that if they have given up on the electrification altogether (but the 'delayed indefinitely' at the start of your post seemed to be implying that).

I'm not saying TfW have given up on it, just that it's starting to have shades of the GWML electrification farce, just without the massive billion £ overspend - the Valley Lines electrification is now years late, deadlines for switch on come and go, life expired 150s are being sent for scrap, new trains are sitting in sidings for 18 months.........

 

[FrontSideBus]

Unfortunately this is just not good enough, TfW keep kicking the can down the road on new train introduction and finding excuses for their poor performance. This press release has only been put out because they've been shamed into it by 3 of the Coryton line stations being in the top ten of most cancelled services in the UK.

I don't have faith in their management of the network and think that a better replacement for James Price should be found. It all looks very amateurish to a lay person.

Well, as another fellow disgruntled passenger once said to me... TFW sands for Try F***ing Walking.

 

[Bob Price]

It is so obvious that many of the armchairs critics in these boards have no idea how major projects like this work. One small bit of electrification infrastructure not working can set the project back weeks. Remember you are trying to upgrade a working railway. There are only so many opportunities you can have to carry out engineering works and these need to be planned weeks in advance. It may look amateurish to the lay person but it will happen as fast as it can. The only way to speed it up is close it all down and just work on it 24/7.

 

[Caaardiff]

Isn't it also the side where things like 153s, 158s and 175s are/were cleared? If so, possibility of using 197s up there too if they have nothing but those and FLIRTs left? Of course, they would only do that if they have given up on the electrification altogether (but the 'delayed indefinitely' at the start of your post seemed to be implying that).

Are you suggesting that all Valleys train crew should be trained up on 197's just on the random off chance that the Coryton line is short of some units?

It's likely that Valleys train crew will eventually lose their competency on 231's once they transfer to mainline routes, so even 231's might not be able to step in in the future, with the possible exception of the VOG line if that remains operated by mainline train crew.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Are you suggesting that all Valleys train crew should be trained up on 197's just on the random off chance that the Coryton line is short of some units?

No. I was just suggesting that, if TfW had given up on electrification of the Coryton and Rhymney side of the Valleys they could replace the 150s with 197s - not as a 'random off chance' but as core traction. It's a moot point now anyway since Cardiff123 clarified that they did not intend to imply electrification had been abandoned.

 

[Cardiff123]

It is so obvious that many of the armchairs critics in these boards have no idea how major projects like this work. One small bit of electrification infrastructure not working can set the project back weeks. Remember you are trying to upgrade a working railway. There are only so many opportunities you can have to carry out engineering works and these need to be planned weeks in advance. It may look amateurish to the lay person but it will happen as fast as it can. The only way to speed it up is close it all down and just work on it 24/7.

That's fair enough, but if you can't be sure that a deadline can be met, then don't publicly announce a deadline. To the layman it just looks like TfW can't competently manage a project. TfW have been announcing deadlines for when X, Y and Z will happen for years, and inevitably those deadlines are not usually met.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I was referring to post #2400, which I note has now been edited and the link works.

Ah, OK, thanks for the reply.

It is so obvious that many of the armchairs critics in these boards have no idea how major projects like this work. One small bit of electrification infrastructure not working can set the project back weeks. Remember you are trying to upgrade a working railway. There are only so many opportunities you can have to carry out engineering works and these need to be planned weeks in advance. It may look amateurish to the lay person but it will happen as fast as it can. The only way to speed it up is close it all down and just work on it 24/7.

Of course doing the work 24/7 would be easier and result in a cost saving....
(runs for cover).

 

[Bikeman78]

Sounds like the switch on has been delayed indefinitely to me.
So "this spring" has become "later this Summer", what's the chance of summer becoming autumn and autumn becoming winter? Seems very likely. It's also the easiest route for TfW to bustitute if the 150s have gone in the bin and so they have no trains left to run any services on these routes.

Coryton is difficult to replace with a bus as there is no convenient parallel road. There is little danger of running out of class 150s. There are still 27 available for service. Assuming the class 756 take over the remaining diagrams to Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr in the next few weeks, that only leaves Ponty to Cardiff Bay (three diagrams), Coryton/Caerphilly to Penarth (five diagrams) and Bridgend to Rhymney (four diagrams). Even with pairs on the Rhymneys and maybe three covering for class 197s that is still only 19 units required.

 

[Cardiff123]

Coryton is difficult to replace with a bus as there is no convenient parallel road. There is little danger of running out of class 150s. There are still 27 available for service. Assuming the class 756 take over the remaining diagrams to Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr in the next few weeks, that only leaves Ponty to Cardiff Bay (three diagrams), Coryton/Caerphilly to Penarth (five diagrams) and Bridgend to Rhymney (four diagrams). Even with pairs on the Rhymneys and maybe three covering for class 197s that is still only 19 units required.

Thanks for this, I was thinking more it's easier for TfW to just say "ticket acceptance with Cardiff Bus" (just give up essentially) but that's the cynic in me.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Assuming the class 756 take over the remaining diagrams to Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr in the next few weeks

Is that actually the case? Looks like at least for Treherbert the majority of diagrams are still 150s atm.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Is that actually the case? Looks like at least for Treherbert the majority of diagrams are still 150s atm.

I think it is seven (or eight now) 756s in use daily so far on Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr according to the post I quote below. Furthermore I think almost all of the 756/1s have seen passenger service. But I think that will ramp up quite quickly.

101 103 105 107 108 109 & 113 started today but 103 was taken out of service quite early for some reason. 6 left.
103 due to be replaced with 117 so 7 then.

So Given the wiring on the TAM lines seems to be enough for 756s I reckon it is more down to how quickly TfW can train enough drivers on 756s to take over the TAM lines. Fingers crossed the 150s can then be saved for other routes.

 

[sd0733]

Is that actually the case? Looks like at least for Treherbert the majority of diagrams are still 150s atm.

The base diagrams for May appear to be 100% 756/1 diagrams to Treherbert.

There's only 10/11 150s planned out depending on day of the week mostly working Rhymney/Caerphilly with some weekend Ebbw Vales chucked in.

As always theres lots of opportunity for that to change and/or some short term diagrams at the start.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The base diagrams for May appear to be 100% 756/1 diagrams to Treherbert.

There's only 10/11 150s planned out depending on day of the week mostly working Rhymney/Caerphilly with some weekend Ebbw Vales chucked in.

As always theres lots of opportunity for that to change and/or some short term diagrams at the start.

Is there any use for the 756/0s ?.
I suppose it depends if there is enough partial electrification ready for them to run under.

 

[sd0733]

Is there any use for the 756/0s ?.
I suppose it depends if there is enough partial electrification ready for them to run under.

There's 5 diagrams on paper on the Caerphilly-Coryton-Penarth route.

There's no guarantees it'll all happen on day 1 of the timetable though, plenty of time for amendments to kick in.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There's 5 diagrams on paper on the Caerphilly-Coryton-Penarth route.

There's no guarantees it'll all happen on day 1 of the timetable though, plenty of time for amendments to kick in.

So maybe not yet enough wiring up the Rhymney valley for the Caerphilly Southwards part to be usable by 756s yet ?.
I think the Rhymney line is the one where 756s are supposed to actually be iirc ?.

 

[sd0733]

So maybe not yet enough wiring up the Rhymney valley for the Caerphilly Southwards part to be usable by 756s yet ?.
I think the Rhymney line is the one where 756s are supposed to actually be iirc ?.

Can't help on the infrastructure element I'm afraid.

Diagram wise the Rhymneys are all showing as 150/153/231 operated from the timetable change so that would tally that only diesels can get there but I'm not in a position to confirm that.