Why is it not a requirement to enter expiry date of railcard for ticket purchases?

[Alex C.]

I suspect these issues would be a lot less of a problem if railcards were actually checked more frequently. My current network railcard runs out in April and it has been checked once, when my ticket didn’t work the gate line. My two together railcard hasn’t been checked in 10 months. This is across multiple TOCs, intercity and regional.

This is how we end up with people not realising their railcard expired 6 months ago. There is definitely some people trying it on but I know I was much more aware of the expiry dates when I had to actually show them on most journeys.

I am certain that pre the e-ticket era, railcards were checked fairly consistently, definitely significantly more than they are now.

 

[kkong]

We will refuse a sale at the Travel Shop at Haymarket unless you have your RailCard with you to prove entitlement. However, online there is nothing to stop you applying a discount and then chancing it. We regularly get people with the Scottish Youth RailCard (SRY) (via Young Scot) who have discounts applied when the RailCard portion of their Young Scot (SRY) expired three years ago. They "think" it is valid until the date shown on the National Entitlement Card (NEC) that contains the various products, including free bus travel here in Scotland until the age of 22. The SRY expires at the age of 19, although you can still get a 50% Rate Season Ticket for up to four months into the age of 19. Yet to meet someone who has actually read the T&Cs but considering they are at the bottom of that section of the ScotRail WebSite that links to National Rail, I’m not surprised. The Scottish Government website is pretty poor too, in presenting key information.

Yesterday, I was seated closed to a group of men in their early 20s who were heading to a football match.

Some of them had applied the Young Scot discount to their tickets.

They had just seen one of their friends charged £26 for a new single ticket for the same claimed discount, which wasn't valid.

The conductor had to leave to work the doors at a station stop, during which time the two men decided they would say they were full-time carers and therefore entitled to the discount.

Naturally, no evidence of their claimed status was available (because it didn't exist).

Passenger: "It doesn't say anything about that on the ScotRail website"
Conductor: "But it does on the Young Scot website - read the terms and conditions"

The conductor eventually relented and moved on, making some notes on their device. I doubt they will be of much use, because the tickets were CCST, so not scannable.

The conductor had no issue with any them drinking beer at 10:00.

 

[MrJeeves]

We will refuse a sale at the Travel Shop at Haymarket unless you have your RailCard with you to prove entitlement.

This sort of policy is extremely frustrating for customers.

I've almost been refused sale of tickets at Birmingham New Street which I was purchasing for a journey a friend and I were doing early the next morning simply because they were not with me yet and couldn't present their Railcard as a result!

I can guarantee that, if the ticket could be purchased online or with a TVM, I would definitely be using that in the future.

I never understand the reasoning to make purchasing tickets at a ticket office even more off-putting and frustrating when people are already trying to get rid of them all!

 

[Ziggiesden]

This sort of policy is extremely frustrating for customers.

I've almost been refused sale of tickets at Birmingham New Street which I was purchasing for a journey a friend and I were doing early the next morning simply because they were not with me yet and couldn't present their Railcard as a result!

I can guarantee that, if the ticket could be purchased online or with a TVM, I would definitely be using that in the future.

I never understand the reasoning to make purchasing tickets at a ticket office even more off-putting and frustrating when people are already trying to get rid of them all!

We do have that from time to time - we ask the person to obtain a screenshot to prove entitlement when doing a booking, if applying someone elses discount. The National Rail manual states, as an example from Family & Friends:

Issuing discounted tickets​

Ensure the Railcard is produced.

Check the Railcard has been filled in properly and is endorsed with the station or office stamp and signed by the holder(s).

Check that there is at least one child in the group.

When you are satisfied, issue the tickets at the appropriate discount (applying minimum fares where necessary).

Tell customers about restrictions relevant to the journey.

In the T&Cs which are agreed when you sign the RailCard it does say you "may" be asked to show the RailCard. It should say "will" in my opinion.

 

[Ziggiesden]

Then you'll lose sales where it's not possible to have a railcard at the time of purchase. For that to work you would need it to be ok to renew a railcard before the earliest date that cheap advances go on sale. Similarly you'd need to be able to apply for a senior railcard to cover the same situation before the age of 60.

Yes, we know it is another ploy to direct sales online so that the closing of Booking Offices can be justified.

 

[Hadders]

we ask the person to obtain a screenshot to prove entitlement when doing a booking

That sounds like you're making up your own rules.

 

[MrJeeves]

Yes, we know it is another ploy to direct sales online so that the closing of Booking Offices can be justified.

I think it's hard to describe the restrictions you (or your TOC?) are putting on your own ticket sales can be described as a "ploy" to get rid of your role... If such archaic and passenger-unfriendly rules weren't in place, this wouldn't even be a concern.

I would see no issue with asking for the Railcard before sale, but the passenger shouldn't be denied the sale of the ticket based on your own rules if they are not buying for immediate travel and do not have the Railcard.

 

[Haywain]

That sounds like you're making up your own rules.

The industry rules set out for the sale and issue of railcard discounted tickets are being followed, to the letter. However, that shows a complete lack of the pragmatism that is widely observed across the industry in selling tickets, without seeing a railcard, to those travelling in the future. The real problem here is that the industry has completely failed to update instructions to staff to allow even handed management of these situations when compared to the ability to purchase through any other channel without first owning a railcard. It was ridiculous ten to fifteen years ago and is even more ridiculous now but any office enforcing this absurd rule deserves to be criticised.

 

[Stewart2887]

Railcards are an anachronism, they should not exist. The only loss to the railway is the £30 cost of a new card. No other business could maintain a 35% attack on their set prices, unless the prices were inflated.

I agree. I've just got a senior railcard after having been ineligible for a single-person railcard for 35 years. Thats discrimination in my opinion

 

[styles]

I agree. I've just got a senior railcard after having been ineligible for a single-person railcard for 35 years. Thats discrimination in my opinion

And it mainly benefits those already 'in the know'.

I've had a over a dozen Railcards held simultaneously before now - a disabled persons Railcard (for someone I am companion for), a 26-30 Railcard, a Family & Friends Railcard, and a number of Two Together Railcards when I was doing walking trips from London and the Two Together Railcards paid for themselves.

A lot of the people I travel with wouldn't even have thought they may be eligible for a joint railcard.

Add in to that split ticketing and Avanti Superfares and GroupSave and rovers and everything else.

Customers might have more confidence in buying the right ticket if all of this was simplified and fares simply reduced slightly across the board.

Not to mention that it costs money to administer all these schemes, so those £30 Railcard fees (or less with Clubcard points or cashback offers or Monzo Plus etc) possibly doesn't even cover costs anyway. I'm not aware of a breakdown of this anywhere though.

I have to say I'd be a bit miffed if I went to a ticket office to buy a ticket and got turned away because I hadn't bought my Railcard yet as I wanted a later validity, but I'm not sure how many people are buying Advance fares from a ticket office and intentionally planning to hold off buying a Railcard, so expect it's a very small problem, just one which would leave me grumbling as I walk away to buy it online instead.

 

[AM9]

And it mainly benefits those already 'in the know'.

Railcards are adverised widely (TV, posters at stations/on trains, newspapers, Tic-toc, Facebook, etc.) so to be 'in the know' all anybody needs to do is take note of what is being advertised. Full information including validity, rules and availability is available online and via leaflets published by the rail industry and the travel trade. Those that ignore the information sources aren't 'in the know' through their own actionns.

For your information:​

Equality Act 2010: If the discrimination is a "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim", it is not unlawful (see s13(2)) of Equality Act).​

Age restricted railcards existed long before the Equality Act.'Railcards, including the Senior Railcard, are a specific example of age-based discounts that are permitted under the Equality Act.'

 

[Ziggiesden]

I think it's hard to describe the restrictions you (or your TOC?) are putting on your own ticket sales can be described as a "ploy" to get rid of your role... If such archaic and passenger-unfriendly rules weren't in place, this wouldn't even be a concern.

I would see no issue with asking for the Railcard before sale, but the passenger shouldn't be denied the sale of the ticket based on your own rules if they are not buying for immediate travel and do not have the Railcard.

I agree, it is actually a National Rail Instruction from Rail Delivery Group, but since "Bridge of Spies" has hit the nail on the head:

Rudolf Abel:

Well, the boss isn't always right. But, he's always the boss.


Recently I had a run in with a "boss" an OS2.2 (Operations Supervisor) called Duty Managers on their badge so that people think they are speaking to a Manager to deflect complaints from being recorded. They recently automated the refunds process (it actually takes twice as long now – up to 15 minutes if the tickets don't scan). You still get a paper copy, in duplicate. One of the things you had to do was write in words as well as figures the amount being refunded in the old system. When the new system came along, they removed the need to write the amount in words in the Refund Instructions. However, they never updated the form. The OS 2.2 Supervisor insisted that we still do that until I pointed out the instruction had changed. All other staff do it, except me, as they will not challenge authority in case it damages their career.

The Railway, in general is archaic with lots of duplication everywhere. When you fight to get it changed it really is an uphill struggle.

 

[35B]

As suggested above, this would only be for apps/websites that cache your railcard for future use. This wouldn't affect TVM purchases or guest account purchases. Buying a railcard in the future is certainly a point, but I also don't entirely see why you would purchase a ticket before a railcard... what if it doesn't turn up in time? If you're waiting for the card to arrive, why not just add a railcard with an expiration date of 1 year in the future?

Because one’s child is 15 but a ticket needs purchasing in advance and a railcard will be in place for their birthday?

 

[AdamWW]

Sounds attractive. Tell you what, I'll not bother renewing my railcard when it expires and I'll take my chance until I'm caught and just pay the £60. I'd probably get away with it for ages on short distance services.

Given that by failing to renew you've only saved yourself (and lost the railway) £30 a year (or is it £35 now?) then you'd have to get away with it for a rather long time to come out on top.

An alternative view is we could all just take responsibility for making sure our railcards are in date before we board a train. Millions manage to do it successfully.

We could.

But when people make mistakes (which they do) we could also levy a penalty that isn't wildly disproportionate to the amount of money the railway has lost. (And one that isn't higher than the penalty for travelling without a ticket at all).

How much are train companies making from charging people £2000 when forgetting to renew a railcard when the real loss was £30 or so?

And of course in the case of railcards with an upper age limit, the actual loss for a few months without a valid railcard is often £0 because the person will still end up buying the same number of railcards anyway.

 

[talldave]

Because one’s child is 15 but a ticket needs purchasing in advance and a railcard will be in place for their birthday?

You can order the Railcard 14 days in advance of their birthday as well.

 

[saismee]

Because one’s child is 15 but a ticket needs purchasing in advance and a railcard will be in place for their birthday?

Situations like this sound too niche to completely disregard a feature that could help a lot of people. There's always the option to use a ticket office or TVM.

 

[Hadders]

Given that by failing to renew you've only saved yourself (and lost the railway) £30 a year (or is it £35 now?) then you'd have to get away with it for a rather long time to come out on top.

You’re forgetting that you’re not entitled to buy railcard discounted fares unless you possess the railcard.

But when people make mistakes (which they do) we could also levy a penalty that isn't wildly disproportionate to the amount of money the railway has lost. (And one that isn't higher than the penalty for travelling without a ticket at all).

The issue is identifying a genuine mistake from more premeditated behaviour. I’m all for making sure there’s a robust approach to fare evasion and appropriate penalties for fare evaders and I do have concerns about the behaviour of some train companies in this regard. But there does need to be a ‘penalty’ element to things like out of date railcards otherwise why bother to renew?

 

[AdamWW]

You’re forgetting that you’re not entitled to buy railcard discounted fares unless you possess the railcard.

No I'm not forgetting that.

By choosing not to renew a railcard all you can have saved yourself is the cost of the railcard. So if the penalty is twice the cost of a railcard, you only gain if you can manage not to get caught on any occasion for over two years.

But there does need to be a ‘penalty’ element to things like out of date railcards otherwise why bother to renew?

Yes so you've said and I agree.

But I cannot see why there needs to be a penalty that can be orders of magnitude more than the actual loss to the railway

 

[The exile]

Situations like this sound too niche to completely disregard a feature that could help a lot of people. There's always the option to use a ticket office or TVM.

Each might be a niche situation - but there are enough niches to build an entire house!
To remind people- all you need is an “insert expiry date” with a further option to tick saying something like “I am aware that this ticket is only valid for travel when shown with a valid railcard”

 

[TUC]

This sort of policy is extremely frustrating for customers.

I've almost been refused sale of tickets at Birmingham New Street which I was purchasing for a journey a friend and I were doing early the next morning simply because they were not with me yet and couldn't present their Railcard as a result!

I can guarantee that, if the ticket could be purchased online or with a TVM, I would definitely be using that in the future.

I never understand the reasoning to make purchasing tickets at a ticket office even more off-putting and frustrating when people are already trying to get rid of them all!

I can why a ticket counter would want to see a railcard, but why didn't you just buy online or at a TVM anyway and save the hassle?

 

[sheff1]

You’re forgetting that you’re not entitled to buy railcard discounted fares unless you possess the railcard.

You can purchase as many as you want (online, or at some TVMs, at least). You only need to possess the relevant railcard when using the ticket to travel, which could be months after the ticket was purchased.

 

[saismee]

Given that by failing to renew you've only saved yourself (and lost the railway) £30 a year (or is it £35 now?) then you'd have to get away with it for a rather long time to come out on top.

Well in that case I'd imagine Hadders would be using the 16-17 railcard as the 50% discount (over the 33%) is worth the risk of spending 60 pounds! Wouldn't take long to come out on top in that case.

 

[AdamWW]

Well in that case I'd imagine Hadders would be using the 16-17 railcard as the 50% discount (over the 33%) is worth the risk of spending 60 pounds! Wouldn't take long to come out on top in that case.

I thought we were discussing someone failing to renew a railcard they're entitled to.

Sure if you claim an discount for a railcard you couldn't legitimately hold you can save much more than the cost of a railcard, and in that case the penalty ought indeed to be larger.

 

[saismee]

I thought we were discussing someone failing to renew a railcard they're entitled to.

Sure if you claim an discount for a railcard you couldn't legitimately hold you can save much more than the cost of a railcard, and in that case the penalty ought indeed to be larger.

So you're suggesting an edge-case where you get a 60 pound fine (instead of the price of every journey you've made) if you A: previously had a valid railcard, and B: are still eligible for the same railcard. It's too specific and convoluted to be added to our already specific and convoluted rules.

 

[AdamWW]

So you're suggesting an edge-case where you get a 60 pound fine (instead of the price of every journey you've made) if you A: previously had a valid railcard, and B: are still eligible for the same railcard. It's too specific and convoluted to be added to our already specific and convoluted rules.

Well I was agreeing with someone else's suggestion.

For the case where someone shows a railcard but it's expired and they're still entitled to it (not quite the same as you suggest above).

Hardly an edge case as looking through the "disputes and proscutions" thread will show.

You might like to explain why you believe that someone who lets their railcard expire should be penalised much more harshly than someone who has been avoiding buying tickets at all.

 

[saismee]

You might like to explain why you believe that someone who lets their railcard expire should be penalised much more harshly than someone who has been avoiding buying tickets at all.

We're definitely in a similar boat of misunderstanding eachother. I agree with asking for a railcard expiration to prevent people from buying tickets with an expired railcard. Better to fix the cause (using an expired card) than fix the symptom (being wildly overcharged and treated like a criminal for your mistake).

 

[35B]

You can order the Railcard 14 days in advance of their birthday as well.

And when booking further in advance. This isn’t niche, but real.

 

[talldave]

And when booking further in advance. This isn’t niche, but real.

Real but corner case.

The industry hasn't kept up to date and has lost control of Railcards. When they started, you showed your Railcard at the ticket office and got the discount. No ifs, no buts.

Now there are no checks at all on the main purchasing channels - it's ludicrous. It's harder to get a Nectar price on milk than it is to slash a third off rail travel costs.

I bet Trainline have more accounts actively purchasing 16-17 & 16-25 Railcard tickets than there are valid Railcards in existence.

The industry should offer an alternative monthly direct debit payment, say £4, with rolling validity until the age limit passes. Bounce the payment and lose that month's validity. All checked live at time of purchase. My bet is that uptake of valid 16-25 Railcards would increase overnight.

 

[BingMan]

Lots of businesses give discounts to customers who commit to holding a loyalty card.

Indeed. I just bought a £36 bottle of whisky at Tesco for £24 with my "loyalty" card. And that is not a unique experience

One reason is that you do not have to have a railcard to buy a ticket, only to use it.

But not all ticket office staff know that.

 

[Ziggiesden]

Notably that hasn't always been the case. You used to have to show the Railcard at the time of purchase, though when this was the case Advances were far less of a thing.

Still have to show a Railcard when asked:

"2.5. You may be asked to show your Railcard when purchasing discounted tickets."

Railcard Terms & Conditions - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

Interestingly, look for it in the 16-17 Saver - worded differently:

"2.5 You cannot buy discounted tickets unless you can produce your 16-17 Saver."

Railcard Terms and Conditions | Railcards - Railcard

Details of Railcards' Terms and Conditions. Including information about all Railcard products available.

www.railcard.co.uk

One reason is that you do not have to have a railcard to buy a ticket, only to use it.

You need to have it with you to buy at a ticket office or on-train from a person:

As an example, "2.5 You cannot buy discounted tickets unless you can produce your 16-17 Saver."

Technically, I would argue that you cannot buy a discounted ticket unless you already posess a RailCard as you are applying a discount you are legally not yet entitled to. Online, it is unenforceable for the moment, so you can get away with it. However, when the Retail Systems are linked to the RailCard databases that will suddenly change, methinks.

Railcard Terms and Conditions | Railcards - Railcard

Details of Railcards' Terms and Conditions. Including information about all Railcard products available.

www.railcard.co.uk