Elon Musk - the world's "greatest" spiv?

[Peter Mugridge]

It seems that the origin of this group is really not clear, beyond having a pro-Palestine agenda.

Ah... has someone now claimed responsibility?

That wasn't on the news when I looked earlier.

 

[jon0844]

...and a huge DDoS attack on Twitter earlier today.

I guess we can at least rule out that one being down to the Russians for a change...

Unless Russia offered to help stage it so Elon could blame Ukraine, and then Trump can use this to further undermine Ukraine and Zelensky.

Personally, I wonder if the whole thing wasn't just made up. Would anyone notice anything untoward if X wasn't working properly? It's been doing stupid things for ages.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Unless Russia offered to help stage it so Elon could blame Ukraine, and then Trump can use this to further undermine Ukraine and Zelensky.

Personally, I wonder if the whole thing wasn't just made up. Would anyone notice anything untoward if X wasn't working properly? It's been doing stupid things for ages.

Given Musk's reputation for the truth I don't believe the hacking story at all and suspect it's some other problem he's trying to cover up. Given the deep cuts to Twitter staff and infrastructure I'm surprised there's not been more problems like this with the platform.

 

[SteveP29]

'workers would "shortly receive an email requesting to understand what they got done last week".'

This is a quote from the link provided by @brad465
For clarity, quoting his post only quoted the text he had posted and the link, not the content within the link.

Is that not the job of line managers?
Are they not there to ensure the required work gets done
Are they not there to identify manpower gaps (and indeed employing too many people)
Are they not the ones to feed that upwards to their line manager to feed it upwards to Directors/ Board Members?

What does every little thing done by the lowest rank need justification for? surely the manager that identified the manpower gap employed them, so it's up to them to justify them if need be?

We underwent a restructure 6 years ago, our COO sat with every one of us in the Head Office and watched as we worked and she chatted with us about our tasks for about an hour.
We had a shy and retiring (not leaving work) receptionist, we believe she just told the COO that she answered telephones, forwarded emails when required and greeted people when they came into our office.
COO decided we were paying too much for so little output and she was made redundant.
At appeal, she listed one task that she did per line on two sides of lined A4 paper, which was rejected.

Those tasks ended up not being done, and when it was realised that the majority of them were vital for the running of our office, they ended up being divvied out to mugs like me, I'm a Finance Assistant, I ended up having to be the Health & Safety rep too (fabulous!!!)

The same thing will happen to the American Government, when they get rid of who they think are extraneous and worthless to them, they'll end up having a mountain of jobs that require doing, that will have a rather further reaching effect on the USA than it did on the charity I work for.

 

[cb a1]

Well, we are descended from the Golgafrinchams and look what happened to those we left behind on our original planet ...

 

[SuspectUsual]

workers would "shortly receive an email requesting to understand what they got done last week".'

Approx 3 million employees of US federal agencies

Less than 100 DOGE staff

I’m sure all those emails got a huge amount of attention

 

[jon0844]

Approx 3 million employees of US federal agencies

Less than 100 DOGE staff

I’m sure all those emails got a huge amount of attention

Wasn't Elon going on about using AI to analyse the content? Bet that goes well.

At the end of it, it will likely suggest sacking everyone.

Almost as good as removing all image files and documents containing the word Gay.

If businesses and agencies are pushing for AI to replace jobs, just look at how DOGE has demonstrated how useless AI is.

 

[swt_passenger]

BBC are reporting that TESLA are complaining about the effect of tariffs...

Elon Musk's electric carmaker Tesla has warned it and other US exporters could be harmed by countries retaliating to Donald Trump's trade tariffs.

Mr Musk is a close ally of the US president and is leading efforts to reduce the size of the federal government.

But in an unsigned letter addressed to the US trade representative, Tesla said while it "supports" fair trade it was concerned US exporters were "exposed to disproportionate impacts" if other countries retaliated to tariffs.

Trump tariffs: Elon Musk's Tesla raises concern over retaliation risk

The electric carmaker’s warning about tariffs comes despite its boss's key position in the Trump administration.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[jon0844]

This is where Trump will start his mafia style shakedown and start to do deals to exempt certain companies from tariffs.

 

[brad465]

Oh dear oh dear oh dear:

Elon Musk's Tesla makes largest ever Cybertruck recall

It is the eighth recall involving the pickup since early 2024, shortly after the truck hit the roads.

www.bbc.co.uk

Thousands of Tesla Cybertrucks have been recalled in the US due to concerns about part of the electric car's trim falling off in the model's eighth and largest ever recall.
The issue affects more than 46,000 trucks made starting in November 2023, which analysts say amounts to nearly all Cybertrucks.
It comes as Tesla, which did not respond to a request for comment, grapples with falling sales amid a backlash against the firm and its boss Elon Musk.
On Thursday, US Attorney General Pam Bondi said three unnamed people would face charges for setting fire to Tesla cars and charging stations, accusing them of "domestic terrorism".
Tesla does not break out sales of the Cybertruck, but car tech firm Cox Automotive has estimated roughly 39,000 were sold in the US last year.
Prior Cybertruck recalls involved failing windshield wipers, trapped accelerator pedals, possible loss of drive power to the wheels, and other issues.
Tesla started investigating the latest issue, involving a piece formally known as the cant rail, in January, according to filings with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), external.
"The cant rail, a stainless-steel exterior trim panel, can delaminate and detach from the vehicle," the notice said.
"A detached panel can become a road hazard, increasing the risk of a crash."
Tesla told NHTSA it had received about 150 claims from drivers about the issue but was not aware of any accidents caused by the problem.
It estimated that the issue affected about 1% of vehicles involved in the recall.
The issue is covered under a warranty for new owners, and the company will replace the piece free-of-charge.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I'm surprised that they sold as many as 39,000 given how utterly crap they are.

 

[jon0844]

Me too, and it's some way off the two million Elon claimed to have 'sold', going by the number of people who put down deposits.

It was suggested at the time that many people did that just to screen shot the deposit being paid so they could pretend they were buying one and impress their social media following. It's also popular to spec up Apple products to the max and pretend you just ordered because, well, social media clout.

 

[Giugiaro]

I'm surprised that they sold as many as 39,000 given how utterly crap they are.

The question is: How many have already been severely damaged or scrapped

 

[yoyothehobo]

saves energy turning the car into a cube when its most of the way there already

 

[jon0844]

The Cybertruck must be one of the biggest disasters in modern times for a new car. I think we likely need to look back at what the UK was churning out in the 1980s, but even we'd have sold more.

He literally boasted about 'selling' two million. The actual number sold is a tiny fraction and so many have been written off too.

If it wasn't a load of wealthy content creators that saw the benefits of buying one to do crazy tests, they'd have sold even less. These content creators did, temporarily, make them look cool and appealing. The fact some of them would have been supplied by Tesla, with the 'reviewer' not wishing to say anything negative as a result, also helped - but it could only last so long.

I wonder if anyone will be questioning Elon's latest 'please don't sell your shares' promise of having a million people on Mars in 20 years, based on the fact that if he can't build a Cybertruck that doesn't fall apart, how is anyone to trust his abilities to build cities on Mars and get people transported there.

It's so crazy and yet, as usual, there are people who absolutely believe he'll achieve this.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

how is anyone to trust his abilities to build cities on Mars and get people transported there.

It's so crazy and yet, as usual, there are people who absolutely believe he'll achieve this.

...and Mars has no magnetosphere so there is nothing to deflect the constant bombardment of solar and cosmic radiation.

 

[jon0844]

Elon will no doubt be bringing forward a lot of his ridiculous estimated dates to prove his robots are nearly finished, full self driving is good to go live without supervision, that his AI really does work and no doubt start promising a new car on the horizon (I think he forgot about the new Roadster that he took loads of deposits on also).

Will he be able to convince investors to stick with Tesla? I realise these people know Tesla is screwed, and have good reason to go along with the lies to keep the stock high, but all must be working out exit strategies where they might not have before.

 

[Egg Centric]

Well, after a bit of hesitation I just bought a second hand Model Y Performance online, unseen, (but from a reputable dealer) as our "family" car and first EV (our other cars are just not suitable as baby centric gets bigger). Some stonkingly cheap prices around atm - depreciation is astounding partly due to Musk being a knobjockey, partly due to dubious build quality, partly just a general EV thing.

We took quite a few different test drives of all sorts of SUV type things (non negotiable with Mrs Centric sadly - I wanted an M5 touring) and the Teslas were miles out in front. I enjoyed driving them (in as much as you can enjoy driving a 2 tonne SUV) particularly given you essentially just drive them one pedal, and being a nerd loved all the stuff you can do on the app (like boombox and fart mode). They ones I drove weren't as quick as I wanted but the performance version does 0-60mph in 3.5s and 155mph which will be enough for me without intimidating my wife. The panoramic glass roof is lovely. I'm not surprised it was the UK's best selling car tbh (although just as much due to tax breaks I expect).

If this clear superiority remains the case then I suspect tales of Tesla's demise are being overdone. Of course this doesn't mean that Musk isn't a prick and nor does it mean anything in particular about Tesla's share price. But in the UK I think we're going to keep on buying them, you know?

 

[brad465]

Well, after a bit of hesitation I just bought a second hand Model Y Performance online, unseen, (but from a reputable dealer) as our "family" car and first EV (our other cars are just not suitable as baby centric gets bigger). Some stonkingly cheap prices around atm - depreciation is astounding partly due to Musk being a knobjockey, partly due to dubious build quality, partly just a general EV thing.

We took quite a few different test drives of all sorts of SUV type things (non negotiable with Mrs Centric sadly - I wanted an M5 touring) and the Teslas were miles out in front. I enjoyed driving them (in as much as you can enjoy driving a 2 tonne SUV) particularly given you essentially just drive them one pedal, and being a nerd loved all the stuff you can do on the app (like boombox and fart mode). They ones I drove weren't as quick as I wanted but the performance version does 0-60mph in 3.5s and 155mph which will be enough for me without intimidating my wife. The panoramic glass roof is lovely. I'm not surprised it was the UK's best selling car tbh (although just as much due to tax breaks I expect).

If this clear superiority remains the case then I suspect tales of Tesla's demise are being overdone. Of course this doesn't mean that Musk isn't a prick and nor does it mean anything in particular about Tesla's share price. But in the UK I think we're going to keep on buying them, you know?

I recall seeing the UK has seen a much lesser decline than the rest of Europe. I don't know why, but it's possible that our culture puts product quality/ability above the owner's political antics much more. We also have much stricter standards for cars, so the Teslas sold in the UK would have to have a much higher standard than what's sold in the US, where most of the product faults are arising (and also why the Cybertruck is banned from sale in the UK and Europe).

However, the UK is a small player here, so if the decline in sales everywhere else is severe, a marginal decline in the UK by comparison won't save the business. What might save it though is the use of his pseudo-government position in the US to get favourable arrangements for all his business interests.

 

[Egg Centric]

I recall seeing the UK has seen a much lesser decline than the rest of Europe. I don't know why, but it's possible that our culture puts product quality/ability above the owner's political antics much more. We also have much stricter standards for cars, so the Teslas sold in the UK would have to have a much higher standard than what's sold in the US, where most of the product faults are arising (and also why the Cybertruck is banned from sale in the UK and Europe).

However, the UK is a small player here, so if the decline in sales everywhere else is severe, a marginal decline in the UK by comparison won't save the business. What might save it though is the use of his pseudo-government position in the US to get favourable arrangements for all his business interests.

TBF ours is second hand so presumably wouldn't show up in sales figures (I'm also not joking about depreceation - it's a rouhgly 60k car that I've paid 35k for at 9k miles and under 2.5 years old); plus the test drives were all at the tesla dealership and very easy to get, the first one actually was we turned up to the Car Supermarket site in North Shields to be met by someone I can only call a smarmy (words I cannot repeat on this forum) and then noticed a tesla dealership next to it - weren't even looking at them to begin with - but was straight on a model Y within minutes.

I don't know how this compares to normal but it would be a curious amount of spare capacity if it's always like that. So I'm guessing there is currently a bit of a lull. But if the cars remain this nice as you say our culture makes problems here due to Musk much less likely than the US. Some of our US friends were absolutely aghast at our decision because they perceive everything in terms of culture wars.

 

[Cloud Strife]

If this clear superiority remains the case then I suspect tales of Tesla's demise are being overdone

This is generally the problem Tesla have: their advantage was there, but it's being rapidly eroded. The new Model Y just isn't a gamechanger, and I think there are serious questions about whether Tesla actually has the ability to pour in the money needed to regain their significant advantage. They're still very good cars, but the strange design decisions are hurting them when compared to their more traditional rivals who aren't doing things like removing stalks from the steering wheel 'just because'.

We can't and shouldn't underestimate the influence that Tesla has had, but they're simply being outspent when it comes to R&D. Volkswagen, for instance, are outspending them 4:1 when it comes to R&D, and even companies like Stellantis are spending more than Tesla. Then there's the fact that Musk is still stubbornly trying to make FSD work with AI alone, whereas Mercedes are storming ahead with LiDAR-based automated driving systems that are simply better. For instance, Mercedes has Level 3 operating successfully at 95km/h in Germany, and they look likely to reach 130km/h in the near future. Meanwhile, Tesla is still nowhere near it and with no real prospect of reaching Level 3 anytime soon.

There's also the question of battery technology: Tesla simply no longer have the advantage that they had.

 

[Egg Centric]

This is generally the problem Tesla have: their advantage was there, but it's being rapidly eroded. The new Model Y just isn't a gamechanger, and I think there are serious questions about whether Tesla actually has the ability to pour in the money needed to regain their significant advantage. They're still very good cars, but the strange design decisions are hurting them when compared to their more traditional rivals

who aren't doing things like removing stalks from the steering wheel 'just because'.

My wife, who's never been brilliant at the whole left/right thing, absolutely hated this btw on another one of our test drives. Not relevant to what we actually bought but makes sense.

We can't and shouldn't underestimate the influence that Tesla has had, but they're simply being outspent when it comes to R&D. Volkswagen, for instance, are outspending them 4:1 when it comes to R&D, and even companies like Stellantis are spending more than Tesla. Then there's the fact that Musk is still stubbornly trying to make FSD work with AI alone, whereas Mercedes are storming ahead with LiDAR-based automated driving systems that are simply better. For instance, Mercedes has Level 3 operating successfully at 95km/h in Germany, and they look likely to reach 130km/h in the near future. Meanwhile, Tesla is still nowhere near it and with no real prospect of reaching Level 3 anytime soon.

There's also the question of battery technology: Tesla simply no longer have the advantage that they had.

My view is we just don't know what's coming up. I certainly don't own any Tesla stock (except through index funds) as I don't have time for that sort of thing but so long as they retain their USP of focussing on "nerdy" cars they will have an audience and I don't see it shrivelling up cause of Musk.

 

[Cowley]

This is generally the problem Tesla have: their advantage was there, but it's being rapidly eroded. The new Model Y just isn't a gamechanger, and I think there are serious questions about whether Tesla actually has the ability to pour in the money needed to regain their significant advantage. They're still very good cars, but the strange design decisions are hurting them when compared to their more traditional rivals who aren't doing things like removing stalks from the steering wheel 'just because'.

We can't and shouldn't underestimate the influence that Tesla has had, but they're simply being outspent when it comes to R&D. Volkswagen, for instance, are outspending them 4:1 when it comes to R&D, and even companies like Stellantis are spending more than Tesla. Then there's the fact that Musk is still stubbornly trying to make FSD work with AI alone, whereas Mercedes are storming ahead with LiDAR-based automated driving systems that are simply better. For instance, Mercedes has Level 3 operating successfully at 95km/h in Germany, and they look likely to reach 130km/h in the near future. Meanwhile, Tesla is still nowhere near it and with no real prospect of reaching Level 3 anytime soon.

There's also the question of battery technology: Tesla simply no longer have the advantage that they had.

I think that’s a good assessment.

Tesla have lost ground and everyone else has caught up and are now overtaking.

The people that would have been inclined to buy a new Tesla are now being put off because of Musk’s politics, and because of the latter issue, they’ve lost a lot of the loyalty they could have kept if he’d stayed politically neutral.

Personally, whenever I see a Tesla around now, I think they’ve started to look pretty dated very quickly.

 

[Egg Centric]

I think that’s a good assessment.

Tesla have lost ground and everyone else has caught up and are now overtaking.

The people that would have been inclined to buy a new Tesla are now being put off because of Musk’s politics, and because of the latter issue, they’ve lost a lot of the loyalty they could have kept if he’d stayed politically neutral.

Personally, whenever I see a Tesla around now, I think they’ve started to look pretty dated very quickly.

They all have styling "cues" dating back to the Model S* so they look a little bit dated but I don't think this is as big a thing as you think; it feels more of an enthusiast way of looking at it and (as an enthusiast myself) I think we are objectively a bit blinkered. I tried to write my post above objectively. With my enthusiast "cap" on I think cars peaked in the early 2000s and it's been downhill since then, much as I think trains peaked with, well, not literally the Peaks but certainly before BR was no longer a thing.

I honestly don't think the politics thing is as big a deal as people tend to make it out in the UK (although yes it would have been much better for him to stay neutral - like any businessman).


*ngl I was super tempted to buy the Plaid but I'm too northern and poor to justify blowing that amount of money but omg it was tempting

 

[Cowley]

They all have styling "cues" dating back to the Model S* so they look a little bit dated but I don't think this is as big a thing as you think; it feels more of an enthusiast way of looking at it and (as an enthusiast myself) I think we are objectively a bit blinkered. I tried to write my post above objectively. With my enthusiast "cap" on I think cars peaked in the early 2000s and it's been downhill since then, much as I think trains peaked with, well, not literally the Peaks but certainly before BR was no longer a thing.

I do get that you’re trying to be objective, and probably this is actually a really good time to pick up a bargain Tesla.

I’ve got a friend who’s got one and he was just getting to the point of selling it when all of this started happening. It’s just shedding value every day at the moment!

I honestly don't think the politics thing is as big a deal as people tend to make it out in the UK (although yes it would have been much better for him to stay neutral - like any businessman).

I guess what I’m saying is that the market and clout that the bigger manufacturers already had would have always caught up in the end.

Having a product that was different though could have helped the company ride some of that out, because they could have built up some brand loyalty in customers that wanted to be a little more individual and alternative.

Unfortunately he seems to have completely alienated those people with his choices and I honestly don’t see even a together version of his previous self pulling things back now.

I think he’s stuffed the company personally.

 

[Cloud Strife]

My view is we just don't know what's coming up. I certainly don't own any Tesla stock (except through index funds) as I don't have time for that sort of thing but so long as they retain their USP of focussing on "nerdy" cars they will have an audience and I don't see it shrivelling up cause of Musk.

I think their biggest problem is the Cybertruck, to be honest. It's a noose around their neck, and the pricing of it just isn't competitive. It will always attract a few buyers who want something oddball that turns heads, but they shouldn't have allowed themselves to get distracted by it.

Apart from that, I think a big part of the problem is that it's very difficult to innovate again. They did a great job with the Model 3, S, X and Y, but people are/were looking at Tesla to deliver a big jump forwards for a second time, and there's no real sign of it happening. They've failed in their mission to produce a very affordable, mass produced car too. They are spending more on R&D than they were, but there are some frighteningly good cars coming in the next 2-3 years and Tesla will need to massively up their game in response. There's the new Roadster, but this is in serious danger of becoming vapourware. Musk is claiming that it will do 0-60mph in less than a second, while it will supposedly come with an enormous battery pack providing 600-odd miles of range.

I also suppose that part of the problem is that Tesla simply don't have the advantage when it comes to battery technology now. They might still be fantastic at getting the maximum out of the batteries for performance, but consumers are worried about range, not about peak performance in most cases. Lucid are also doing a lot of things on the quiet, something that could really threaten Tesla in the next few years. Meanwhile, what set Tesla apart is no longer special, especially as the automotive manufacturers are realising their mistakes in terms of shoddy touchscreen UI/UX and so on. It's the same with manufacturing: we can't deny that Tesla have done incredibly well with their manufacturing facilities, but it's going to be very hard for them to jump ahead in a similar way again.

It's a big if, but Tesla really should just give up on FSD in its current form and integrate LiDAR. If they don't do it in the next 5 years or so, we're going to see LiDAR-based autonomous driving solutions become mainstream, and Tesla's FSD will be left far behind.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Musk is claiming that it will do 0-60mph in less than a second

Ye Gods!!! That's about 3g in acceleration isn't it?!

Even Formula One cars typically take just over 2 seconds to reach 60 mph...

 

[Cloud Strife]

Even Formula One cars typically take just over 2 seconds to reach 60 mph...

This is his claim: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60006649/tesla-roadster-coming-deposits-details/

Now, Musk is saying the Roadster will achieve a 60-mph time of less than one second, although he described that feat as "the least interesting part" of the car.

There's all sorts of interesting claims about the car, including that it will include small rocket thrusters to achieve this kind of performance. But it keeps being pushed back, and I don't think anyone believes that it will actually be launched this year in production volumes.

 

[takno]

TBF ours is second hand so presumably wouldn't show up in sales figures (I'm also not joking about depreceation - it's a rouhgly 60k car that I've paid 35k for at 9k miles and under 2.5 years old); plus the test drives were all at the tesla dealership and very easy to get, the first one actually was we turned up to the Car Supermarket site in North Shields to be met by someone I can only call a smarmy (words I cannot repeat on this forum) and then noticed a tesla dealership next to it - weren't even looking at them to begin with - but was straight on a model Y within minutes.

I don't know how this compares to normal but it would be a curious amount of spare capacity if it's always like that. So I'm guessing there is currently a bit of a lull. But if the cars remain this nice as you say our culture makes problems here due to Musk much less likely than the US. Some of our US friends were absolutely aghast at our decision because they perceive everything in terms of culture wars.

I don't think buying a second hand Tesla in the UK is a stupid decision, particularly since prices are likely to be rather depressed. Personally I don't think I'd be comfortable driving one, but that's because I think as new they've been an overpriced inferior car for a while. As a sensible second hand option for somebody who isn't too stressed about appearances I can see them making sense.

As new, the cars themselves have been selling mostly off the back of Elon's showmanship/lies for a while now. Whether it's the Nazi-angled hand gestures and deranged politics, or the increasingly pathetic fights over video games, I think it's becoming clearer that he is perhaps not the genius he's been made out to be. If people are choosing to re-evaluate their plans to spend a premium on something that's not at all state of the art then that's really their business too.

In terms of the share price, even with the recent falls, the shares are trading at around 5x the reasonable price for a great car company. Sooner or later, even if you believe they are great cars, the shares are inevitably going to fall. I don't especially care about this except that I think my Nest pension has probably hugely over-invested in them, so I potentially may be affected by the fall.

 

[Egg Centric]

There's all sorts of interesting claims about the car, including that it will include small rocket thrusters to achieve this kind of performance. But it keeps being pushed back, and I don't think anyone believes that it will actually be launched this year in production volumes.

Just imagine actually believing this (to be clear not that he's saying it, but what he's saying)

Without doing the calculations you actually do need something like rocket propulsion though don't you? At least unless the road "surface" is something specialist so that mere friction isn't enough. You're not going to get 3g acceleration from any sort of even vaguely legal road tyres