Money should not be wasted on the New Belmond train

[stevetay3]

Moderator note: split from

New Belmond train in England & Wales

New Sleeper service from 2025, run by the same folks that do the Royal Scotsman: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-14072053/Sleeper-train-england-wales-belmond.html Link refers to the an article referring to the "First-ever luxury sleeper train in England and Wales to launch in 2025...

www.railforums.co.uk

Why is so much money being wasted on this sort of thing, whilst.the whole rail system will be falling apart around them

 

[fgwrich]

Why is so much money being wasted on this sort of thing, whilst.the whole rail system will be falling apart around them

Because Belmond obviously sees an opportunity for it. Take a look at the owners of Belmond (LVMH - Moët Hennessy Louis Vuitton) and you’ll see they very much clearly have their own market. Besides, it’s certainly not public money being used so I can’t see what the problem is. Belmond have successfully ran the British Pullman and Royal Scotsman for years, so I wouldn’t say they are a waste either.

 

[DarloRich]

Why is so much money being wasted on this sort of thing, whilst.the whole rail system will be falling apart around them

because a private company have seen a way to make more money - this, obviously, isnt some public service thing. There is no public money invoivled.

 

[stevetay3]

because a private company have seen a way to make more money - this, obviously, isnt some public service thing. There is no public money invoivled.

And the private money is not there to help the regular passenger that should be being funded. Surely funding public services is just as profitable as this Belmont nonsense, seeing the amounts being milked of by private foreign operators to then improve the own systems. Whole thing stinks

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Doesn’t have to be, don’t forgot the Royal Scotsman is a Belmond product and traction for that is GB. I’d also be surprised if DB went for it with their 67s as Belmond only has to take a look at TfW to see how unreliable the 67s have become in daily use (and how unhelpful they can be if they speak to them!).

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Because Belmond obviously sees an opportunity for it. Take a look at the owners of Belmond (LVMH) and you’ll see they very much clearly have their own market. Besides, it’s certainly not public money being used so I can’t see what the problem is. Belmond have successfully ran the British Pullman and Royal Scotsman for years, so I wouldn’t say they are a waste either.

The problem is the rail network is falling apart, Belmont soon won’t have rails to run on

 

[DarloRich]

And the private money is not there to help the regular passenger that should be being funded. Surely funding public services is just as profitable as this Belmont nonsense, seeing the amounts being milked of by private foreign operators to then improve the own systems. Whole thing stinks

I don't really understand what you are on about. Sorry.

 

[fgwrich]

And the private money is not there to help the regular passenger that should be being funded. Surely funding public services is just as profitable as this Belmont nonsense, seeing the amounts being milked of by private foreign operators to then improve the own systems. Whole thing stinks

Well, if you want to go and ask Louis Vuitton… Please let us know what they say. Some people want Nationalisation but without the strings attached. Some want to operate their own private services on the railway. Clearly you would also like Railtours & the likes of LSL to subsidise the normal paying passenger to, or simply be done with Railtours / Private tours et all too?

What you need to remember is that this won’t all be operated for free. Belmond will still be paying track access charges, and will still be paying their way like any other privately operated service. So, at the end of the day, the taxpayer / rail user still gains through that.

 

[stevetay3]

Well, if you want to go and ask Louis Vuitton… Please let us know what they say. Some people want Nationalisation but without the strings attached. Some want to operate their own private services on the railway. Clearly you would also like Railtours & the likes of LSL to subsidise the normal paying passenger to, or simply be done with Railtours / Private tours et all too?

Some one needs to subsidise it or is the system just there for rich Joy riders now. Louis Who

 

[Sun Chariot]

Think of it this way, @cygnus44 -

"Britannic Explorer" prices start £5,800 per cabin. That puts the selling proposition in line with the sea cruise market.
The train's paying travellers - and, importantly, their disposable cash - remain within the UK, however.
"During-day" excursions to places of interest = travellers part with their money into local businesses such as tourist sights, shops, food establishments, taxis.
Jobs within the train's operation and also in local commerce.

There will still be track access charges, I'd imagine.

That surely is a good thing?

 

[stevetay3]

Think of it this way, @cygnus44 -

"Brutannic Explorer" prices start £5,800 per cabin. That puts the selling proposition in line with the sea cruise market.
The train's paying travellers - and, importantly, their disposable cash - remain within the UK, however.
"During-day" excursions to places of interest = travellers part with their money into local businesses such as tourist sights, shops, food establishments, taxis.
Jobs within the train's operation and also in local commerce.

There will still be track access charges, I'd imagine.

That surely is a good thing?

The tax payers do not fund building the cruise ships do they, we fund the railways for all.not just for people with more money than sence to joyride on a crumbling railway at 14K a go, Belmond must see them coming

 

[renegademaster]

Surely funding public services is just as profitable

They aren't, that's the whole reason why the government pays people to do them because they wouldn't make a profit otherwise

The tax payers do not fund building the cruise ships do they, we fund the railways for all.not just for people with more money than sence to joyride on a crumbling railway at 14K a go, Belmond must see them coming

Charters get put at the bottom of the stack for priority in timetabling, this "joyride" isn't going to harm anyone else and bring HMRC lots of money

 

[stevetay3]

Everyone is obsessed with money and profit now, no public service, no social interaction with each other all over. the country.
Friend of mine the other day got told to F off for stroking some ones dog, this is where we are, the last few days we have been praising our wonderful exc servicemen now most are back living on the streets again on benefits if they can get them, those that laid all the wreaths are the ones that should help but bury there heads in the sand all the time or are plotting how to stuff the sick and elderly even more. That’s enough for now let them squander there profits on swanky trains if they want nothing will change.

 

[fgwrich]

Everyone is obsessed with money and profit now, no public service, no social interaction with each other all over. the country.
Friend of mine the other day got told to F off for stroking some ones dog, this is where we are, the last few days we have been praising our wonderful exc servicemen now most are back living on the streets again on benefits if they can get them, those that laid all the wreaths are the ones that should help but bury there heads in the sand all the time or are plotting how to stuff the sick and elderly even more. That’s enough for now let them squander there profits on swanky trains if they want nothing will change.

And I’m sure LVMH are going to be really concerned about your concerns. None of which really have any impact on their services, or frankly, this thread. But as I and others have tried to explain, the points (and benefits) and way that the money is spent seem to be lost on you.

Moving back to the original point of the thread, it seems the livery for this will be a light blue. I believe Assenta Rail have already refurbished a number of the vehicles at its Hamilton base.

 

[stevetay3]

And I’m sure LVMH are going to be really concerned about your concerns. None of which really have any impact on their services, or frankly, this thread. But as I and others have tried to explain, the points (and benefits) and way that the money is spent seem to be lost on you.

Moving back to the original point of the thread, it seems the livery for this will be a light blue. I believe Assenta Rail have already refurbished a number of the vehicles at its Hamilton base.

I’ll just live in the real world. LVMH please someone translation please

 

[Neo9320]

I’ll just live in the real world. LVMH please someone translation please

Louis Vuitton Moët Hennessy?

 

[signed]

LVMH please someone translation please

Louis Vuitton (Brand of luxury goods) Moët (Champagne brand) Hennessy (French brandy (cognac)). Owns a **** ton of luxury things more as well.

Lead by Bernard Arnault, no. 1 or 2 on the Forbes' wealthiest people list

 

[stevetay3]

Louis Vuitton (Brand of luxury goods) Moët (Champagne brand) Hennessy (French brandy (cognac)). Owns a **** ton of luxury things more as well.

Lead by Bernard Arnault, no. 1 or 2 on the Forbes' wealthiest people list

Right I’ll switch to them instead of Sainsbury’s

 

[Sun Chariot]

Right I’ll switch to them instead of Sainsbury’s

More like a few rungs up the wealth ladder from shopping at Harvey Nic... £1000+ for a pair of trainers. I kid you not.

 

[Richard Scott]

Why is so much money being wasted on this sort of thing, whilst.the whole rail system will be falling apart around them

It's private money I expect, probably paying for privilege of running so helping to put money into the system.
Bit of an exaggeration about whole system falling apart, not anywhere I've been recently; unless, of course, they're expanding into Germany?!!!

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Everyone is obsessed with money and profit now,

They always have been, it's nothing new.
If companies don't make a profit then people don't have jobs, there's no investment etc. This is what happens in the real world. Some countries did try communism, not sure it turned out too well!

 

[AlterEgo]

Everyone is obsessed with money and profit now, no public service, no social interaction with each other all over. the country.
Friend of mine the other day got told to F off for stroking some ones dog, this is where we are, the last few days we have been praising our wonderful exc servicemen now most are back living on the streets again on benefits if they can get them, those that laid all the wreaths are the ones that should help but bury there heads in the sand all the time or are plotting how to stuff the sick and elderly even more. That’s enough for now let them squander there profits on swanky trains if they want nothing will change.

Insane post, one of the best I've seen on this forum.

Why is so much money being wasted on this sort of thing, whilst.the whole rail system will be falling apart around them

To answer your question, Belmond will pay track access charges to utilise spare paths on the network. This is not cheap, and is partly reflected in the ticket price, so you should rather be welcoming the fact that private money is going to pay charges to subsidise and maintain the public infrastructure in lieu of more taxpayer subsidy.

 

[stevetay3]

Insane post, one of the best I've seen on this forum.


To answer your question, Belmond will pay track access charges to utilise spare paths on the network. This is not cheap, and is partly reflected in the ticket price, so you should rather be welcoming the fact that private money is going to pay charges to subsidise and maintain the public infrastructure in lieu of more taxpayer subsidy.

I see what is happening on the railway on the news nearly every day. Aventra 5 years late. Constant cancellatios ,massive overcrowd because services levels are still reduced due to covid, staff making up there own rules regarding ticket irregularitie. massive inflation busting pay rises whilst others get cuts, Dangerous Euston Crowding I could go on and on. You think a post about people living on the street is insane, you need to go out and open your eyes.

 

[AlterEgo]

I see what is happening on the railway on the news nearly every day. Aventra 5 years late. Constant cancellatios ,massive overcrowd because services levels are still reduced due to covid, staff making up there own rules regarding ticket irregularitie. massive inflation busting pay rises whilst others get cuts, Dangerous Euston Crowding I could go on and on. You think a post about people living on the street is insane, you need to go out and open your eyes.

Yes it's an insane thing to get cross about when the context for doing so is: "Private train company pays passive track access charges to maintain the infrastructure, taking some of the burden off the taxpayer"

 

[stevetay3]

Yes it's an insane thing to get cross about when the context for doing so is: "Private train company pays passive track access charges to maintain the infrastructure, taking some of the burden off the taxpayer"

I don’t really care what Belmond do with there money, it’s the attitude towards my posts that concerns me implying insanity surely a personal thing which I believe is not allowed on here

 

[AlterEgo]

I don’t really care what Belmond do with there money

It's going to pay for the maintenance of public infrastructure, something you should welcome if you have the myriad of concerns you say you have.

 

[stevetay3]

It's going to pay for the maintenance of public infrastructure, something you should welcome if you have the myriad of concerns you say you have.

Not a problem for me after being enthusiast of 50 years, I now have health issues and regard the railway to be unsafe for people with health problems so it’s the car for me now on, two much risk of being left stranded by rail

 

[12LDA28C]

I see what is happening on the railway on the news nearly every day. Aventra 5 years late. Constant cancellatios ,massive overcrowd because services levels are still reduced due to covid, staff making up there own rules regarding ticket irregularitie. massive inflation busting pay rises whilst others get cuts, Dangerous Euston Crowding I could go on and on. You think a post about people living on the street is insane, you need to go out and open your eyes.

And maybe you shouldn't believe everything you read in the press. You've already been told that your so-called 'massive inflation busting pay rises' are a fallacy but still you're trotting out the same nonsense.

 

[stevetay3]

r

Not really. The vast majority of Statesman customers for example, are 'normals' who couldn't give a stuff about what's on the front of the train. They care much more about a comfortable first class seat, pleasant environment on board, good food and drink and quality service. Any cranks on board who care about the traction and liveries are very few and far between.

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As I understand it, Chinese tourists to the UK are rather on the wane. Bicester Village shopping outlet in Oxfordshire for example, the No.1 UK destination for visitors from China has seen numbers drop by 20% this year compared to 2023.

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And maybe you shouldn't believe everything you read in the press. You've already been told that your so-called 'massive inflation busting pay rises' are a fallacy but still you're trotting out the same nonsense.

Not really. The vast majority of Statesman customers for example, are 'normals' who couldn't give a stuff about what's on the front of the train. They care much more about a comfortable first class seat, pleasant environment on board, good food and drink and quality service. Any cranks on board who care about the traction and liveries are very few and far between.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2024 ==



As I understand it, Chinese tourists to the UK are rather on the wane. Bicester Village shopping outlet in Oxfordshire for example, the No.1 UK destination for visitors from China has seen numbers drop by 20% this year compared to 2023.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2024 ==



And maybe you shouldn't believe everything you read in the press. You've already been told that your so-called 'massive inflation busting pay rises' are a fallacy but still you're trotting out the same nonsense.

Nearly all the things I mentioned about the problems with the railways, I have read on this forum not the main stream media, so maybe I shouldn’t believe a lot of the posts on here.

 

[RT4038]

The tax payers do not fund building the cruise ships do they, we fund the railways for all.not just for people with more money than sence to joyride on a crumbling railway at 14K a go, Belmond must see them coming

Are taxpayers funding the refurbishment/construction of these Belmond carriages/locomotives then? No. I am really not sure what your point is?

And the private money is not there to help the regular passenger that should be being funded. Surely funding public services is just as profitable as this Belmont nonsense

I don't understand what point you are trying to make here? If 'funding public services' (as far as railways are concerned) were profitable, companies would be queing to doing such.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The tax payers do not fund building the cruise ships do they, we fund the railways for all.not just for people with more money than sence to joyride on a crumbling railway at 14K a go, Belmond must see them coming

I liken your statement "we fund the railways for all" to paying the UK Road Fund Licence tax.
I don't choose which roads get prioritised by the DfT or which roads are treated by National Highways Agency.
I accept I might see no material improvement on the roads I use, despite me paying taxes towards the roads.
I accept that some public roads have expensive hotels at the side. I don't bemoan well-off people using those public roads to get to and from the hotels.
I accept that any operator can use the UK roads to provide a transportation service and earn money from doing so.
Similarly, I accept that any TOC can apply to use the national railway network, pay its track access charges, cover its own operating costs and earn money from providing a service to people.

I think of Belmond's operating model being similar to that for an expensive hotel:
People who can afford it, they choose to stay there. They can also choose not to stay.
How the hotel meets its own running costs, is up to the hotel.
Our taxes don't go to a private business such as Belmond for its ongoing repair / improvement / operating costs.

 

[SeanG]

Surely this will actually contribute to the running of the railway from a monetary point of view - no public investment in this train but no doubt they will be paying track access charges etc as per any other railtour. Furthermore, there will be boosts to the economy wherever the train stops and has its excursions, I can't see that the guests will be short of a bob or two so will likely be happy to pay for tourist tat etc. There will also be the coach operators, food & beverage suppliers etc who will get a boost from this.

Whilst you may not like the captalist world and the sheer difference in wealth (and I completely get that, is it right that people happily spend 5 or 6 figures on a holiday whilst others cannot afford to keep their heating on and feed their kids?), it is the way of the world and I can't see how this is not a good thing.

 

[The exile]

The tax payers do not fund building the cruise ships do they

In many cases they do subsidise the port facilities, though.