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DB might cancel its second ICE-L order?

Jan

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Some rumours regarding the Talgos that have very recently been mentioned on a German forum:
  • too high axle loads, especially for the Netherlands, where the maximum permissible axle load for full speed running is only 20 t instead of 22,5 t
  • too high hotel loads, possibly to the point that they're running into the power limits of the train line, although people have noted that the power draw of the coaches would have to be really unusually high for that to happen, so it's not clear what the actual underlying issue here might be or how much truth there is to that rumour
  • too high air consumption (maybe due to the pneumatic suspension), to the point that the air compressor on the locomotive has trouble keeping up, especially with the replacement Vectron locos, which are supposed to be used as an interim solution until Talgo's own locos are ready for service
  • very noisy pneumatic suspension requiring installation of air flow dampers or additional sound insulation or something (supposedly the previous generation of Talgos used by DB as night train coaching stock suffered from a similar problem)
  • insufficient brake force
 
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Amalie

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I was always worried about the Talgos for the Netherlands due to its axle weight. The other points sound even worse.

The Vectrons that haul the IC Berlin (from Amsterdam,) are also at a 22,5 t axle load. If I remember right, they do run under full speed, but under an exception (while Prorail, our infrastructure manager, keeps a close eye on the track itself). Other passenger trains using vectrons have to run at a measly 100km/h max. (E.g various night trains and a few special excursions). The reason for these axle load restrictions is the soft soil foundation.

Of course, with those existing IC Berlin consists, it’s just the locomotive that’s a tad overweight with the carriages fitting in just fine.

With the Talgos, it will be the entire train set that’s overweight and which are supposed to run every 2 hours in the day.

That being said, if the Talgos really turn out to be much less than expected, my condolences really go to the Danish, who have ordered a few sets of them, which are now already delayed, in a attempt to finally put a end to their own Italian train nightmare.
 

Halish Railway

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I’ve said this before but why haven’t they procured a small sub fleet of dual-voltage ICE4s? Surely being a sub-300KPH route means that they’re the perfect rolling stock for this route with their brisk acceleration (and an average of 17.11 t per axel).
 

Amalie

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I’m not sure whether either side knew about the axle load. If anyone does know, I am curious.

I do remember that the Dutch and Germans didn’t seem to communicate with each other as much as they probably should have. My memory is a tad big dodgy, but the timeline was kind of like this:

- The Germans have some public document stating that they were seeking new trains for the Amsterdam - Berlin line and presumably have a tender. The Dutch seemingly didn’t know, were not told, or were oblivious about this.
- The Dutch, in parallel, plans to lease some Vectrons to speed up that line to remove that lengthy locomotive switch in Bad Bentheim. Since it’s a lease, locomotives would come in quickly.
- The Germans announces the Talgo “ICE,” together with the Talgo locomotives. If it was delivered on time with the Talgo locomotives, this would have made that whole Vectron lease completely unnecessary.
- But, the Talgo locomotives and then the sets are delayed so the Vectrons come in handy anyway.
- Some Vectrons come into use for Nightjets as well.

I do hope everything works out, but I’m a bit cynical to be honest.
 

Austriantrain

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I’ve said this before but why haven’t they procured a small sub fleet of dual-voltage ICE4s?

The price. ICE L at apparently 24 Million EURO per set for 550+ seats (according to Wikipedia, not sure if with or without loco) is exceptionally cheap. That is, if it actually works.

BTW, this month‘s Today‘s Railways Europe also mentions the cancellation rumors, however citing DB that nothing has been canceled.
 
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andersj

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The DSB coaches have their weight printed on the coaches and none of the intermediate coaches come even close to 22,5 t.

My suspicion is on the weight distribution on the new long end-cars with a traditional bogie - because Talgo should know how to build the intermediate coaches, that's more or less the only type they have build since the beginning. The end-cars for DSB are 37 t, but how much are carried by the bogie (and how heavy is the bogie in itself?) and how much are transferred to the axle from the next coach? The intermediate coaches are probably also heavier in the end with the door, wheels, AC-unit and technical equipment.

So if there is an "axle load problem" it might come down to the axles connecting the end and cab-cars to the intermediate cars. The first intermediate coach is a 2. class coach with two WC's coming in at 17 t. So 37 t + 17 t divided on 3,5 axles with uneven distribution might cause some trouble. The ICE L coaches have more seating rows, so they are a bit heavier.

Skærmbillede 2025-03-15 kl. 01.56.39.png
 

nwales58

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Maybe not related, but Talgo do have ‘form’ on overweight.

After the Santiago derailment it transpired that the generator car axles in the S-730 sets (similar arrangement: unpowered traction bogie at one end, shared Talgo axle at the other) were up to 150kg over the apparent limit. A dispensation had been issued. See diagram in:

 

duesselmartin

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I dont understand why DB ordered such a large fleet of not tried and tested trains. It falls on their feet now.
RailJet style Siemens might have been the better option.
 

Fragezeichnen

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I’ve said this before but why haven’t they procured a small sub fleet of dual-voltage ICE4s? Surely being a sub-300KPH route means that they’re the perfect rolling stock for this route with their brisk acceleration (and an average of 17.11 t per axel).
The ICE4 was a special custom design for Deutsche Bahn with the goal from the beginning of being single voltage and only ETCS + German safety systems.
If they went to Siemens and asked them to please stop building Velaros, redesign the the ICE4 as a dual-voltage unit with Dutch train protection, build it, and then get it certified for the Netherlands, they would probably roll their eyes and quote a price higher than a Velaro.

Also, the real problem behind this fiasco is that they need a tiny sub-fleet of trains that can be hauled with a diesel locomotive to places like Westerland and Bertschesgarten, and they were probably trying to keep the average cost down by making a larger order covering other routes. Another electric ICE doesn't help with that.

My prediction is the ICE3neo will stay on Amsterdam - Berlin permanently and DB will eventually use the Talgos only domestically.

The price. ICE L at apparently 24 Million EURO per set for 550+ seats (according to Wikipedia, not sure if with or without loco) is exceptionally cheap. That is, if it actually works.
That probably explains why FlixTrain is strongly rumoured to be chomping at the bit to join the club of people waiting for Talgo to deliver something that works.
 
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duesselmartin

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The last stretch to Obersdorf and Freilassing to Berchtesgaden has poor patronage and is prone to cancellation. It would hardly be missed. Replacing it with an RE would not be a problem.
The Westerland route would be the only real challenge.
 

rvdborgt

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My prediction is the ICE3neo will stay on Amsterdam - Berlin permanently and DB will eventually use the Talgos only domestically.
Maybe, but then they will need to do something about the capacity. ICE3 has considerably fewer seats, especially in 2nd class. Already the current capacity is not enough to cope with demand in summer and around other holidays and demand goes up every year.
 

DanielB

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137 second class seats less will be quite a thing indeed. Interestingly an ICE3neo has more 1st class seats than ICE L, but the current IC1 consists still offer more 1st class (though only 9 seats more when I've counted correctly).
I do expect mandatory reservations because of that, which results in another challenge: the Amsterdam - Berlin IC is using the path of a domestic IC between Amsterdam, Amersfoort and Deventer. And in the new franchise as of this year there are volume restrictions, meaning NS is not allowed to run more than two IC-services per hour between Amsterdam and Amersfoort, so they cannot add a domestic relief train to the timetable.
That would mean a one hour gap in the timetable every two hours. Something you just don't simply get used to: I have already been surprised once in a weekend with the IC to Berlin being diverted. Arrived in Amsterdam just prior to 18.00 hrs to find there was no direct train towards Amersfoort as the diverted IC hadn't been replaced domestically.
 

Trainbike46

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And in the new franchise as of this year there are volume restrictions, meaning NS is not allowed to run more than two IC-services per hour between Amsterdam and Amersfoort, so they cannot add a domestic relief train to the timetable.
I still don't understand why anyone thought that was a good idea, especially in this case as NS ran domestic relief trains most summers before COVID
 

DanielB

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The relief trains between Amsterdam and Amersfoort block a cargo path, that's one of the reasons. (Especially with Emmerich out of use this summer; cargo from Bad Bentheim to the Rotterdam harbour goes via Amersfoort - Diemen Zuid - Breukelen - Gouda AFAIK; to avoid reversing; so they'll probably need those paths).

And it's also meant so that NS cannot block open access operators from applying for paths. Especially Amsterdam - Amersfoort is a very busy line with only two tracks (and IC paths overtaking Sprinter paths in Weesp). There are only a few relief trains in the peak, but off peak there is no real alternative.
 

superalbs

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Confirmed yesterday that DB is seeking to reduce its order of Talgo sets by 19x.

Original:
La compañía española Talgo ha abierto conversaciones con uno de sus clientes, la operadora ferroviaria alemana Deutsche Bahn (DB), para reducir el volumen del que hasta ahora era su mayor contrato de suministro de trenes. Según ha podido saber este periódico, ambas compañías conversan sobre reducir de 79 a 60 las composiciones del modelo Talgo 230 encargadas inicialmente a la empresa española, como consecuencia de las dificultades de ésta para entregar las unidades y los retrasos acumulados en la producción, que superan el año y afectan tanto a la entrega de los coches de pasajeros como a las locomotoras que deben traccionarlos.

Talgo reconoció en sus resultados del primer trimestre del año que mantenía negociaciones con DB para redefinir "el alcance y los calendarios" de este proyecto. Se enfrenta ahora a la materialización de un ajuste que impactará de lleno en sus previsiones industriales y financieras. La compañía ferroviaria alemana, por su parte, ha preferido mantener silencio tras ser consultada por este periódico.

El CEO de Talgo, Gonzalo Urquijo, reconoció la apertura de negociaciones con la compañía alemana a preguntas de un analista en la presentación de sus resultados trimestrales: "podría implicar una reducción en el alcance del pedido, lo que tendría un impacto en los márgenes. Y también están otras cuestiones, como los años de mantenimiento, cuándo vamos a entregar los trenes o las condiciones de aceptación del calendario. Todo está sobre la mesa", explicó.

El pedido original, anunciado en 2019, contemplaba la fabricación de 23 trenes completos del modelo Talgo 230, con opción a una ampliación que DB hizo efectiva en mayo de 2023 al añadir 56 unidades adicionales, lo que elevaba el encargo a 79 trenes por un importe total aproximado de 1.400 millones de euros. Ahora, según apuntan fuentes del sector a este medio, el ajuste reducirá el volumen del contrato a 60 unidades, lo que supone recortar cerca del 25% del pedido original.
Retrasos en la fabricación y homologación

El retraso acumulado en el suministro de estos trenes ha sido un factor determinante en la decisión de DB. Talgo había fijado inicialmente diciembre de 2024 como fecha para la puesta en servicio de las primeras composiciones en la ruta Berlín-Ámsterdam. Sin embargo, los problemas registrados en el proceso de homologación, así como los retrasos en la fabricación, pospusieron la entrega al verano de 2025, y solo para operaciones dentro de Alemania, dejando en suspenso la conexión internacional prevista con los Países Bajos. En los últimos días, el fabricante ha establecido el segundo semestre de 2025 como plazo para entregar al cliente las primeras unidades.

La construcción de los coches de pasajeros del Talgo 230, que se lleva a cabo en las instalaciones de Las Matas (Madrid) y Rivabellosa (Álava), ha sufrido demoras importantes, y buena parte de las unidades están a la espera de recibir las autorizaciones pertinentes para circular por los países de destino: Alemania, Dinamarca, Países Bajos, Austria y Suiza. A ello se suma el retraso aún más acusado en la fabricación de las locomotoras de la serie 105, especialmente diseñadas para traccionar estas composiciones, y que no se esperan para antes de 2026.

DB, que ejecutó de forma paralela un pedido de 90 trenes ICE 3neo a Siemens, se ha visto obligada a recurrir a estos últimos para cubrir la falta de disponibilidad de las unidades españolas. De hecho, 24 unidades del tren germano ya están en servicio desde 2024 y otras 15 se incorporarán este año para reforzar la ruta entre las capitales alemana y neerlandesa, mientras Talgo trata de finalizar los requisitos de homologación.

En previsión de que los retrasos de Talgo persistieran, DB ordenó el año pasado equipar los coches de viajeros del nuevo modelo Talgo 230 con locomotoras de otros fabricantes que permitan su tracción, como las Vectron de Siemens. Esta fórmula ha sido probada con éxito en los Países Bajos el pasado febrero, lo que permitiría, al menos, operar los coches de pasajeros antes de que las locomotoras de Talgo estén listas.
Impacto en las cuentas

Los retrasos acumulados también están impactando de lleno en las cuentas de Talgo. En sus resultados del primer trimestre de 2025, la compañía reconoció un "grado de avance inferior al planificado en fabricación", lo que ha provocado un incremento de los costes industriales indirectos. Además, admitió que mantiene "en curso un plan de recuperación" para tratar de reconducir la situación. La empresa retiró incluso las previsiones financieras para el conjunto del año 2025, al considerar que las circunstancias imprevistas, tanto por los problemas de fabricación como por cuestiones relacionadas con su estructura de capital, impiden establecer un escenario fiable a medio plazo.

El modelo Talgo 230, conocido en Alemania como ICE L, fue diseñado específicamente para Deutsche Bahn y, más tarde, adaptado para DSB en Dinamarca, que también ha encargado otras 16 composiciones aún pendientes de entrega. Se trata de un tren de alta velocidad con un suelo bajo completamente accesible, capacidad para 562 pasajeros, y velocidades de hasta 230 km/h. Sin embargo, el desarrollo técnico ha requerido modificaciones a petición del cliente, lo que ha contribuido a la acumulación de retrasos.
Flix compra los mismos trenes

A pesar de estos contratiempos, el Talgo 230 continúa siendo un producto de confianza para el mercado ferroviario internacional. Prueba de ello es la reciente adjudicación a Talgo de un pedido de FlixTrain, filial ferroviaria del grupo alemán Flix (Flixbus), por valor máximo de 2.400 millones de euros. Este acuerdo contempla el suministro y mantenimiento de hasta 65 composiciones Talgo 230, con un pedido inicial de 30 trenes valorado en cerca de 1.100 millones de euros. FlixTrain ha decidido apostar por el Talgo 230 para impulsar su expansión en Europa, cubriendo rutas en Alemania, Austria, Países Bajos, Dinamarca y Suecia.

La renegociación del pedido también se produce en un contexto en el que Talgo afronta otras incertidumbres, como la entrada del consorcio vasco compuesto por Sidenor, BBK, el Gobierno Vasco y la Fundación Vital en su accionariado, que debía haberse completado el pasado 15 de mayo, pero que sigue sin cerrarse a la espera de que el Gobierno de España dé luz verde a la entrada de la SEPI. La combinación de retrasos industriales, revisión a la baja del mayor contrato de fabricación y una opa pendiente está reconfigurando el horizonte estratégico de Talgo, que ahora deberá redefinir sus prioridades para los próximos años.

Translation:
The Spanish company Talgo has opened talks with one of its clients, the German railway operator Deutsche Bahn (DB), to reduce the volume of what was until now its largest train supply contract. According to this newspaper, both companies are discussing reducing the number of Talgo 230 model trains initially ordered from the Spanish company from 79 to 60, as a result of the latter's difficulties in delivering the units and the accumulated production delays, which exceed a year and affect both the delivery of the passenger cars and the locomotives that pull them.

Talgo acknowledged in its first-quarter results that it was in negotiations with DB to redefine "the scope and schedules" of this project. It now faces an adjustment that will have a significant impact on its industrial and financial forecasts. The German railway company, for its part, has chosen to remain silent after being contacted by this newspaper.

Talgo CEO Gonzalo Urquijo acknowledged the opening of negotiations with the German company in response to questions from an analyst during the presentation of its quarterly results: "It could imply a reduction in the scope of the order, which would have an impact on margins. And there are also other issues, such as the years of maintenance, when we will deliver the trains, or the conditions for accepting the schedule. Everything is on the table," he explained.

The original order, announced in 2019, contemplated the manufacture of 23 complete Talgo 230 trains, with an option for an expansion that DB made effective in May 2023 by adding an additional 56 units, bringing the order to 79 trains for a total value of approximately €1.4 billion. Now, according to industry sources telling this newspaper, the adjustment will reduce the contract volume to 60 units, which represents a reduction of approximately 25% of the original order. Manufacturing and Approval Delays

The accumulated delay in the supply of these trains was a determining factor in DB's decision. Talgo had initially set December 2024 as the date for the first trains to enter service on the Berlin-Amsterdam route. However, problems encountered in the approval process, as well as manufacturing delays, postponed delivery to the summer of 2025, and only for operations within Germany, leaving the planned international connection with the Netherlands on hold. In recent days, the manufacturer has set the second half of 2025 as the deadline for delivering the first units to the customer.

The construction of the Talgo 230 passenger cars, which is being carried out at the facilities in Las Matas (Madrid) and Rivabellosa (Álava), has suffered significant delays, and a large portion of the units are awaiting the relevant authorizations to operate in the destination countries: Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands, Austria, and Switzerland. Added to this is the even more significant delay in the manufacture of the 105 series locomotives, specifically designed to pull these trains, which are not expected before 2026.

DB, which simultaneously placed an order for 90 ICE 3neo trains with Siemens, has been forced to turn to the latter to cover the lack of availability of Spanish units. In fact, 24 units of the German train have already been in service since 2024, and another 15 will be added this year to reinforce the route between the German and Dutch capitals, while Talgo attempts to finalize the approval requirements.

Anticipating that Talgo's delays would persist, DB ordered last year to equip the passenger cars of the new Talgo 230 model with locomotives from other manufacturers that can handle them, such as Siemens' Vectron locomotives. This formula was successfully tested in the Netherlands last February, which would allow, at least, the operation of the passenger cars before the Talgo locomotives are ready.
Impact on Accounts

The accumulated delays are also having a direct impact on Talgo's accounts. In its first-quarter 2025 results, the company acknowledged a "lower-than-planned level of manufacturing progress," which has led to an increase in indirect industrial costs. It also admitted that it has "a recovery plan underway" to try to rectify the situation. The company even withdrew its financial forecasts for the full year 2025, considering that unforeseen circumstances, due to both manufacturing problems and issues related to its capital structure, prevent it from establishing a reliable medium-term scenario.

The Talgo 230 model, known in Germany as the ICE L, was specifically designed for Deutsche Bahn and later adapted for DSB in Denmark, which has also ordered 16 more trains pending delivery. This is a high-speed train with a fully accessible low floor, capacity for 562 passengers, and speeds of up to 230 km/h. However, technical development has required modifications at the customer's request, which has contributed to the accumulation of delays. Flix buys the same trains Despite these setbacks, the Talgo 230 continues to be a trusted product in the international rail market. Proof of this is Talgo's recent award of an order from FlixTrain, a railway subsidiary of the German group Flix (Flixbus), for a maximum value of €2.4 billion. This agreement includes the supply and maintenance of up to 65 Talgo 230 trains, with an initial order for 30 trains valued at approximately €1.1 billion. FlixTrain has decided to invest in the Talgo 230 to boost its expansion in Europe, covering routes in Germany, Austria, the Netherlands, Denmark, and Sweden. The renegotiation of the order also occurs at a time when Talgo is facing other uncertainties, such as the entry of the Basque consortium composed of Sidenor, BBK, the Basque Government, and Fundación Vital into its shareholding. This transaction was supposed to have been completed on May 15th, but remains pending pending the Spanish Government's green light for SEPI's entry. The combination of industrial delays, a downward revision of the largest manufacturing contract, and a pending takeover bid is reshaping Talgo's strategic horizon, which must now redefine its priorities for the coming years.
 

duesselmartin

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Less Talgo and no ICE5 in sight.
As the ICE2 is life expired and ICE1 is not getting any better, one wonders what the strategy is? A general reduction in the timetable?
 

43096

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Less Talgo and no ICE5 in sight.
As the ICE2 is life expired and ICE1 is not getting any better, one wonders what the strategy is? A general reduction in the timetable?
If I was DB I would cancel the entire loco order for these sets as they are nowhere near being service ready. Then take a leaf out of Flix’s book and order 230km/h locos from Siemens for them. In the meantime go to the leasing companies and lease 200km/h Vectrons.
 

Stephen Lee

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The ICE4 was a special custom design for Deutsche Bahn with the goal from the beginning of being single voltage and only ETCS + German safety systems.
If they went to Siemens and asked them to please stop building Velaros, redesign the the ICE4 as a dual-voltage unit with Dutch train protection, build it, and then get it certified for the Netherlands, they would probably roll their eyes and quote a price higher than a Velaro.

Also, the real problem behind this fiasco is that they need a tiny sub-fleet of trains that can be hauled with a diesel locomotive to places like Westerland and Bertschesgarten, and they were probably trying to keep the average cost down by making a larger order covering other routes. Another electric ICE doesn't help with that.

My prediction is the ICE3neo will stay on Amsterdam - Berlin permanently and DB will eventually use the Talgos only domestically.


That probably explains why FlixTrain is strongly rumoured to be chomping at the bit to join the club of people waiting for Talgo to deliver something that works.
Talgo is planning to move production of some Flixtrain Talgos to Magyar Vagon.
 

Gag Halfrunt

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Before Russia invaded Ukraine, FlixTrain were reportedly negotiating to buy 230 km/h cars from Russian manufacturer Transmashholding. At that time, the Dunakeszi factory was a joint venture between Transmashholding and Magyar Vagon. In July 2022 Transmashholding sold its stake and Magyar Vagon became the sole owner.

HUNGARY: Investment company Magyar Vagon has become sole owner of the Dunakeszi Járműjavító coach factory, by acquiring the 50% stake in the TMH Hungary Invest joint venture which was previously held by the TMH International subsidiary of Russian rolling stock group Transmashholding.

Magyar Vagon said it aims to make Dunakeszi Járműjavító a flagship for Hungarian railway manufacturing, and is aiming for further market expansion.

The acquisition includes responsibility for completing the contract to supply 676 Hungarian-built coaches to Egyptian National Railways; more than half of these have so far been completed.
 

Transilien

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If I was DB I would cancel the entire loco order for these sets as they are nowhere near being service ready. Then take a leaf out of Flix’s book and order 230km/h locos from Siemens for them. In the meantime go to the leasing companies and lease 200km/h Vectrons.
Couldn’t DB just use the Class 101 locomotive? They really aren’t that old and it’s a shame that they are already being replaced after only around 25 years, while the mechanically similar ICE 1 and 2 keep running with no replacement in sight.
 

Fragezeichnen

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Couldn’t DB just use the Class 101 locomotive? They really aren’t that old and it’s a shame that they are already being replaced after only around 25 years, while the mechanically similar ICE 1 and 2 keep running with no replacement in sight.

You may consider them not that old, but regardless they are showing their age and they have a number of technical issues which are not easy to solve. The ICE2 are fully replaced by 7-car ICE4 and are in the process of being withdrawn and scrapped, they'll all be gone by 2027. The ICE1 have had major work done on the power cars(new, redesigned traction motor controller) and now run in a shortened configuration, they are in effect replaced by ICE4-XXL and transferred to lower demand routes. The overhaul expenditure is justified by being able to continue using the trailer cars, but that doesn't apply to a locomotive.

There is no possibility of the the BR101 ever running in the Netherlands(Vectrons were introduced to avoid locomotive changes at the border), nor are they compatible with the ÖBB-WTB driving trailer control system(conversion would be possible but of course costs money).
 

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