• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Victoria Line diagramming

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
16,276
Location
Epsom
I am wondering... do the diagrams on the Victoria Line have the workings alternate so that everything in use off peak does both the full length runs to Walthamstow and the shorter runs that turn back at Seven Sisters in turn or do both destinations work on a "shuttle" diagrams basis all day?

If the former, is that a way of keeping the mileages evened out?

If the latter - do they even the mileages by switching the units from one to the other from one day to another?

...or is it totally random on both counts?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Dstock7080

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2010
Messages
3,119
Location
West London
After peak passenger trains that terminate at Seven Sisters run empty into depot and then shuttle empty between depot and Seven Sisters 4 as staff trains.
During peak and off-peak there are no scheduled Seven Sisters terminating trains.

 
Last edited:

notverydeep

Member
Joined
9 Feb 2014
Messages
1,069
I am wondering... do the diagrams on the Victoria Line have the workings alternate so that everything in use off peak does both the full length runs to Walthamstow and the shorter runs that turn back at Seven Sisters in turn or do both destinations work on a "shuttle" diagrams basis all day?

If the former, is that a way of keeping the mileages evened out?

If the latter - do they even the mileages by switching the units from one to the other from one day to another?

...or is it totally random on both counts?

Since Working Timetable 39 (May 2016) the vast majority of Victoria line workings have been end to end, with trains starting from or terminating at Seven Sisters only when starting at the beginning of the traffic day or the beginning of the evening peak and stabling at the end of the morning and evening peaks or the end of the traffic day, so all workings visit Walthamstow at some point during their operation, even the short peak workings.

During off peak times there are trains that do a trip from Northumberland Park Depot to Seven Sisters, then a return trip to Northumberland Park Depot Staff Platform (these are 'staff trains' conveying staff between the two locations) before returning to stable at Northumberland Park Depot. Following this another train will start from a different part of Northumberland Park Depot and do the same set of non-passenger trips and so on. This covers the staff trains and also provides an opportunity for multiple sets to be washed during the traffic day, the train wash being located on the approach to the staff platform at Northumberland Park Depot (60 road).

Aside from out stablers at Brixton, Walthamstow and Victoria (which are 'changed over') during the day, all workings start and end at Northumberland Park Depot, so by changing the workings each unit does, accumulated train kilometres can be evened out...
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
16,276
Location
Epsom
After peak passenger trains that terminate at Seven Sisters run empty into depot and then shuttle empty between depot and Seven Sisters 4 as staff trains.
During peak and off-peak there are no scheduled Seven Sisters terminating trains.
That's interesting, because yesterday at around 14.00 I saw at least three northbound services on Intertube within the space of about 20 minutes that were showing as terminating at Seven Sisters. That's what set me wondering... Would these have just been stock changeovers, then?
 

notverydeep

Member
Joined
9 Feb 2014
Messages
1,069
That's interesting, because yesterday at around 14.00 I saw at least three northbound services on Intertube within the space of about 20 minutes that were showing as terminating at Seven Sisters. That's what set me wondering... Would these have just been stock changeovers, then?
They do still use the option of Seven Sisters reversal during post incident service recovery, so it could have been that. Having looked at the replay, these three trains stabled at Northumberland Park Depot over about a 40 minute period (there were some staff / wash workings in between). Presumably these were part of an unscheduled change over of units to facilitate maintenance, likely following service reformation at some point earlier in the day, where trains due maintenance got off of their planned workings...
 
Last edited:

notverydeep

Member
Joined
9 Feb 2014
Messages
1,069
That's a possibility - was there any disruption around lunchtime yesterday?
I can't see any particular disruption then or earlier (there was some lateness in the PM peak). It is possible that these sets got off of their planned workings (reformed from one diagram to another), but were required back for planned maintenance, or simply that they needed to be changed over and were replaced at some point with a different set taking over their workings. Certainly another train had the number 241 later after the original 241 was one of those stabled.
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
16,276
Location
Epsom
Certainly another train had the number 241 later after the original 241 was one of those stabled.
Ah! That's interesting, because I did see, from the beautifully named Carbuncle Passage footbridge, the one that was 241 as it emerged from the tunnel to enter Northumberland Park.

I think we can definitely deduce stock changeovers, then.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
5,455
They do still use the option of Seven Sisters reversal during post incident service recovery, so it could have been that.
I've often wondered how service recovery is possible on very frequent services like this. Everything cannot terminate at Seven Sisters. If some do but others don't, the trains will be in the wrong order which could get very messy in the peaks when drivers step back.

I have done a few trips on the Piccadilly with a copy of the WTT to hand. On one trip, everything was running around 15 minutes late. I've had occasions where eastbound trains have been in a queue from Acton Town back to Northfields. It must be difficult to recover from that.
 

Mawkie

Member
Joined
17 Feb 2016
Messages
715
I've had occasions where eastbound trains have been in a queue from Acton Town back to Northfields. It must be difficult to recover from that.
If there's nobody trundling along in front then it is absolutely possible to make up 7 or 8 minutes en route and would therefore be possible to make an on-time departure from Arnos as there is usually 7/8 minutes to turn around.

Of course, if you've got the oh-so-often-found slow coach drivers in front of you, then there's always Wood Green sidings (if it's the same driver taking the train back west from Arnos). ;)
 

bluegoblin7

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2011
Messages
1,716
Location
JB/JP/JW
I've often wondered how service recovery is possible on very frequent services like this. Everything cannot terminate at Seven Sisters. If some do but others don't, the trains will be in the wrong order which could get very messy in the peaks when drivers step back.
Every line deals with service recovery differently, as suits the nature of the line, scheduled train frequency and availability of drivers. Things like the time of day will also influence the decisions that are made by service control.

On lines like the Victoria, recovery will generally happen via reformation - the physical trains will still run end to end, possibly with a few additional Sisters, Cross or Victoria reversers, but at crew relief locations will have a fresh driver put on to make the train on time - e.g train 1 may become train 5, etc. This obviously isn’t always possible, but is a good example of why the working timetable is ultimately irrelevant to the general public, provided that headways are being managed.

The Vic is also far more likely to abandon the WTT and move to a ‘special’ timetable, signified by 00x/0xx running numbers, than other lines. Again this has the benefit of best utilising trains and drivers, and makes it easier to manage driving parameters and later reformation to ensure stock balance, last trains and other things again most will never notice but are priorities for service control!

The Picc conversely is a lot harder to get back on time - it’s a long line with only limited bolt holes and reversal points, and drivers are typically based at each end. Disruption never happens when most convenient either, so you can guarantee that most of your drivers will be at the ‘wrong’ end of the line and limit your options. Other long lines like the District, Central and Met tend to have a bit more flexibility in this respect, although it will never be totally infallible.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
5,455
The Picc conversely is a lot harder to get back on time - it’s a long line with only limited bolt holes and reversal points, and drivers are typically based at each end. Disruption never happens when most convenient either, so you can guarantee that most of your drivers will be at the ‘wrong’ end of the line and limit your options. Other long lines like the District, Central and Met tend to have a bit more flexibility in this respect, although it will never be totally infallible.
I have seen the District line having a meltdown though it was over 10 years ago. Signal problems at the east end so nothing was running from Upminster for an hour or so. The Tower Hill to Wimbledon trains were diverted alternately to Richmond and Ealing Broadway. When the late runners from Upminster made it though, the first few reversed at Parsons Green or Kensington Olympia. Quite interesting to watch.
 

MaidaVale

Member
Joined
18 Jun 2021
Messages
161
Location
SW London / Berkshire
The Picc conversely is a lot harder to get back on time

As @Mawkie mentioned above, The one upside to the Picc in terms of late running is that it has the tendency to sort itself out after one trip. T5 and Cockfosters have pretty generous turn-around times as they come and as long as T/Ops aren't dragging their heels through town, most trains may only end up coming back west 2 or 3 late after being 10-15 down on the eastbound. Late running is generally pretty common on the Picc though, considerably more so than other lines I've worked on, tending to just appear out of nowhere through the pipe.

Although as mentioned, it's a complete nightmare to recover from when you're actively trying for the reasons you've outlined, especially when it's 15+.
 

LU_timetabler

Member
Joined
5 Feb 2017
Messages
173
I've often wondered how service recovery is possible on very frequent services like this. Everything cannot terminate at Seven Sisters. If some do but others don't, the trains will be in the wrong order which could get very messy in the peaks when drivers step back.

I have done a few trips on the Piccadilly with a copy of the WTT to hand. On one trip, everything was running around 15 minutes late. I've had occasions where eastbound trains have been in a queue from Acton Town back to Northfields. It must be difficult to recover from that.
But drivers step-back virtually all day at both ends of the Victoria line. Running a good service on the Victoria is more about keeping the drivers on their schedule rather than the units themselves. Re-forms (I.e. changing the train number) during service are commonplace. As is the instruction to take the next train on this platform and give it the number on your duty card.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Also on weekend days we have to changover the night-tube trains, this causes occasional, sporadic Seven Sisters terminators. The change over is needed to obey the no more than 24 hours in service without going into a depot rule.
 
Last edited:

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
16,276
Location
Epsom
Quick question - if I'm doing photos at the Carbuncle Passage footbridge... what time would I need to be there to get the most extra units going into service for the evening peak - if that still happens like that, given the generally high all day frequency these days...?
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
16,276
Location
Epsom
Look on the TfL website for the Victoria Line timetable.
Is it a safe bet that any extras starting will leave the depot roughly 10 - 15 minutes prior?


Also... it's a bit difficult to identify the Seven Sisters starters from the timetable on the website...

1744040246742.png
 

bluegoblin7

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2011
Messages
1,716
Location
JB/JP/JW
The Working Timetable is better: https://content.tfl.gov.uk/vic-wtt-42.pdf

Page 7 shows Rolling Stock working by depot for Mondays to Thursdays, and shows 10 peak push outs between 1422 and 1637. Following pages show the same information go Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays.

Page 6 also shows workings to and from the Northumberland Park Staff Platform - these are roughly half hourly in the off-peak period.
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
16,276
Location
Epsom
The Working Timetable is better: https://content.tfl.gov.uk/vic-wtt-42.pdf

Page 7 shows Rolling Stock working by depot for Mondays to Thursdays, and shows 10 peak push outs between 1422 and 1637. Following pages show the same information go Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays.

Page 6 also shows workings to and from the Northumberland Park Staff Platform - these are roughly half hourly in the off-peak period.
Thank you... so I should position myself at Carbuncle Passage* footbridge from 14.00 and expect to be there for 2½ hours... useful... :)


*...and how on Earth did it get such a funny name?!
 

Mawkie

Member
Joined
17 Feb 2016
Messages
715
*...and how on Earth did it get such a funny name?!

The Carbuncle Ditch (aka Garbell Ditch)​

runs from the junction with the River Moselle at Scotland Green, (just south of the Tottenham High Road) in a straight line through Tottenham Marshes into Pymmes Brook.
Created in the early 15th century to alleviate flooding upstream by the River Moselle and the Ditch is basically a continuation of the Moselle. Originally known as The Garbell and then the Carbuncle by the 19th century though I am unable to find any explanation for the origins of these names. One can only assume that as a carbuncle is caused by bacterial infection, this ditch was associated with disease especially as around this period the population of the area increased and the once pure Moselle became heavily polluted.
 

MaidaVale

Member
Joined
18 Jun 2021
Messages
161
Location
SW London / Berkshire
What's the difference between a bolt hole and reversal siding?

I imagine in that context, Bolt Holes refer to crossovers in which you can reverse trains. Whereas reversal sidings are what they say on the tin, sidings that you can reverse in such as at Victoria.

However, the term 'Bolt Hole' within LU is usually used to refer to small gaps or passageways between the two running tunnels rather than a crossover itself. They're almost entirely unmarked on diagrams and often completely undocumented, being left down to local knowledge. This is the reason that the controller has to caution/stop trains or switch off current in both directions during an incident such as a confirmed trespasser, as there is no way of knowing whether there is some sort of passage between the two tunnels.
 

Dstock7080

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2010
Messages
3,119
Location
West London
I imagine in that context, Bolt Holes refer to crossovers in which you can reverse trains. Whereas reversal sidings are what they say on the tin, sidings that you can reverse in such as at Victoria.
In the context of this thread, I would regard bolt holes as: Hyde Park Corner and King’s Cross, whereas Down Street and Wood Green have a reversing siding.

I do however agree that the term bolt hole is usually defined on LU as that given above by @MaidaVale
 

announcements

Member
Joined
31 Mar 2011
Messages
563
Ironically Hyde park corner has both types of bolt hole: the crossover itself, and within the crossover there is a bolt hole passage way (a long one by most standards) linking up to the DS siding!

The Victoria sidings have lit up bolt holes visible from the running tunnels. Most bolt holes, however, are not noticeable.
 

rebmcr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
3,933
Location
St Neots
In the context of this thread, I would regard bolt holes as: Hyde Park Corner and King’s Cross, whereas Down Street and Wood Green have a reversing siding.

I do however agree that the term bolt hole is usually defined on LU as that given above by @MaidaVale
What would be the term used to describe a location where a faulty unit (or a unit in excess of disrupted track capacity) can be 'parked' until quieter hours? For example Charing Cross Jubilee, or the Brixton overrun tunnels?
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
18,787
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
What would be the term used to describe a location where a faulty unit (or a unit in excess of disrupted track capacity) can be 'parked' until quieter hours? For example Charing Cross Jubilee, or the Brixton overrun tunnels?

There isn’t really a term. “Bolt hole” isn’t used as such on LU - as previously mentioned it has its own meaning, more to do with cross-passages in Tube tunnels.

Sidings on LU are just referred to as sidings, whilst crossovers are crossovers or sometimes referred to as emergency crossovers.

Anything can be used for service recovery or as part of a plan for getting a defective train out of the way, though of course some locations will be more suitable than others.
 

MaidaVale

Member
Joined
18 Jun 2021
Messages
161
Location
SW London / Berkshire
What would be the term used to describe a location where a faulty unit (or a unit in excess of disrupted track capacity) can be 'parked' until quieter hours? For example Charing Cross Jubilee, or the Brixton overrun tunnels?

As a generic term these would just be referred to as sidings, although each line has it's own unofficial phrases depending on the location. If there was something up the east end of the Picc that needed putting away ASAP for example, you'd just say "Stick it on Arnos". I've never been involved with the Jubilee or Vic but I'd imagine they probably have their own local ways of describing Charing Cross or Brixton overrun, and if not, they'd just say it how it is.
 

Central

Member
Joined
20 Oct 2017
Messages
77
Location
Irthlinborough
If the Victoria Line falls over they put trains away in Walthamstow & Brixton sdgs so they can get trains into platforms.
 

Top