EPB farewell - 30 year anniversary

[JonathanH]

I'm pretty sure the Networker orders had already been placed prior to that, so they were on the way out before the accident happened?

The 465/1s weren't given government approval until 19 June 1991 (according to Hansard). The order placed on 10 April 1992.

The approval for the 465/0s and 465/2s was in August 1989, and 466s on 13 May 1991.

Clearly they were on the way out at the time of the Cannon Street incident, but withdrawal was not fully committed.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Wasn't it also the first electric passenger train on the route ?

A very memorable day.



An act immortalised by Hanif Kureshi in "The Buddha of Suburbia". The TV adaptation from the 90's contains lots of lovely EPB footage.

He was brought up in Bromley - so maybe normal behaviour for those days. (an excellent writer I think)

 

[Sun Chariot]

He was brought up in Bromley - so maybe normal behaviour for those days.

For a moment, I thought you meant @yorksrob

 

[contrex]

And who remembers the compartments? And light bulbs missing/thrown out of the windows....

Some of the young 'gentlemen' I was with at Alleyn's School with used to chuck the cushions out as well.

 

[yorksrob]

He was brought up in Bromley - so maybe normal behaviour for those days. (an excellent writer I think)

For a moment, I thought you meant @yorksrob

No, but my local train to Victoria did stop there !

Some of the young 'gentlemen' I was with at Alleyn's School with used to chuck the cushions out as well.

Yes, used to spot them strewn along the embankments and cuttings on the way into London.

 

[contrex]

He was brought up in Bromley - so maybe normal behaviour for those days. (an excellent writer I think)

So was HG Wells, one of my lifelong heroes.

 

[4SubAsociation]

How 5176 looks today (photos by Graeme Gleaves). Three carriages are still around. The two motors are owned by the Suburban Electric Railway Association and trailer owned by the Heritage Electric Trains Trust, the 4th trailer was recently scrapped at Swanage. More can be found out in the below thread. They also have 2-EPB 6307.

One of the motors is at Llanelli, the other two vehicles are at a private site.

Suburban Electric Railway Association updates. Tyneside EPB, 2-EPB 6307, Class 457, Spondon and Ruston 165DE Mazda

Tyneside EPB is in store pending start of restoration work at Shackerstone (Battlefield Railway) benefited from a jet wash back in November 2022. The unit lives in a siding in a tree lined cutting and this means it attracts green algae as it is not moved for long periods of time. More recently...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[yorksrob]

The motor coach looks magnificent.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Fixed that

Whoever edited Wikipedia's page, needs to learn how EPBs were constructed...
"8 January 1991, a packed commuter train failed to stop and collided with the buffers at Cannon Street station in London, United Kingdom, killing two and injuring 542. The cause was driver error, compounded by ageing wooden carriages"

Cannon Street rail crash - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Maybe not so much if they'd been around to use the Gatwick HAL's on that line back in the day !

HALs had a lavatory (that's what the L stands for) - you had to be in the right carriage to use it though as they were non-gangwayed.

 

[WesternLancer]

Fixed that



HALs had a lavatory (that's what the L stands for) - you had to be in the right carriage to use it though as they were non-gangwayed.

Were the ageing carriages a contribution to the cause of the incident? That’s how it reads. Or a contributing factor to the death and injury? Which I suspect is what it means. Or both.

 

[norbitonflyer]

That was a working I always vowed to photograph but failed to. Quire a few photos of 10-car EPB rakes at London Bridge, the peak hour turns when the compartment stock was in use (with a red cantrail stripe, denoting no internal access to other areas in the carriage)

That was a very late development, when the EPBs were being phased out. The compartment vehicles were as far as possible formed into as few units as possible (ie both trailers of a unit) and only used at peak hours. This action was taken after a murder on an off-peak (early afternoon) train in 1988. The victim was only discovered when the train arrived at Victoria. Despite DNA evidence, the culprit has not been traced.

Were the ageing carriages a contribution to the cause of the incident? That’s how it reads. Or a contributing factor to the death and injury? Which I suspect is what it means. Or both.

The cause was driver error. Injuries, two of them fatal, may have been greater because of the telescoping of the vehicles as one underframe penetrated the bodyof the adjacent carriage.

 

[yorksrob]

Fixed that



HALs had a lavatory (that's what the L stands for) - you had to be in the right carriage to use it though as they were non-gangwayed.

Indeed, but the furnishings and bodywork would have been familiar.

 

[DustyBin]

The cause was driver error. Injuries, two of them fatal, may have been greater because of the telescoping of the vehicles as one underframe penetrated the bodyof the adjacent carriage.

When talking about the Cannon Street accident, a detail often is overlooked that the train consisted of a SR design 4-EPB sandwiched between a BR design 4-EPB and 2-EPB, and that the telescoping occurred only within the SR design unit.

Whilst the crash worthiness of the EPB stock was scrutinised following the accident and was found to be of concern, it’s worth noting that there were significant differences in construction between SR and BR design units, and in the case of the latter similarly constructed stock would continue to run until 2005.

(I know you know but others may not!).

 

[Robin Edwards]

HALs had a lavatory (that's what the L stands for) - you had to be in the right carriage to use it though as they were non-gangwayed.

I always thought it funny that HAL stood for half-lavatory

 

[WesternLancer]

The cause was driver error. Injuries, two of them fatal, may have been greater because of the telescoping of the vehicles as one underframe penetrated the bodyof the adjacent carriage.

Exactly. You’d hope Wikipedia would be clearer.

I recall that murder as it was high profile in news at the time. Must be very distressing to those involved that no perpetrator has been found.

When talking about the Cannon Street accident, a detail often is overlooked that the train consisted of a SR design 4-EPB sandwiched between a BR design 4-EPB and 2-EPB, and that the telescoping occurred only within the SR design unit.

Whilst the crash worthiness of the EPB stock was scrutinised following the accident and was found to be of concern, it’s worth noting that there were significant differences in construction between SR and BR design units, and in the case of the latter similarly constructed stock would continue to run until 2005.

(I know you know but others may not!).

I didn’t know that subtlety

 

[Peter Mugridge]

When talking about the Cannon Street accident, a detail often is overlooked that the train consisted of a SR design 4-EPB sandwiched between a BR design 4-EPB and 2-EPB, and that the telescoping occurred only within the SR design unit.

Whilst the crash worthiness of the EPB stock was scrutinised following the accident and was found to be of concern, it’s worth noting that there were significant differences in construction between SR and BR design units, and in the case of the latter similarly constructed stock would continue to run until 2005.

(I know you know but others may not!).

Interesting...

About 18 months before Cannon Street, there was a buffer stop collision at Victoria also involving EPB units, at a higher speed, but no telescoping occurred - does anyone know what the units involved in that were?

 

[Rescars]

I always thought it funny that HAL stood for half-lavatory

....whilst the NOLs had no lavatories!

 

[4SubAsociation]

The motor coach looks magnificent.

Thank you. That was not long after repaint. The trailer was painted on the side that had not been painted recently. The other side still shows the old Electric Railway Musuem. The Motor coach the interior has been taken out and is being used as the SERA workshop. More details below

The Suburban Electric Railway Association - SR EPB Unit Restoration Project

 

[Bikeman78]

Interesting...

About 18 months before Cannon Street, there was a buffer stop collision at Victoria also involving EPB units, at a higher speed, but no telescoping occurred - does anyone know what the units involved in that were?

Do you have a date? If it was a Central Division train then it would definitely have been SR units.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Do you have a date? If it was a Central Division train then it would definitely have been SR units.

Sorry, I don't remember the date at all or even which side of the station it was...

 

[DustyBin]

Sorry, I don't remember the date at all or even which side of the station it was...

I believe the date was the 6th of July 1989, but as no report was published (that I can find) I don’t have any further details unfortunately.

 

[norbitonflyer]

When talking about the Cannon Street accident, a detail often is overlooked that the train consisted of a SR design 4-EPB sandwiched between a BR design 4-EPB and 2-EPB, and that the telescoping occurred only within the SR design unit.

Whilst the crash worthiness of the EPB stock was scrutinised following the accident and was found to be of concern, it’s worth noting that there were significant differences in construction between SR and BR design units, and in the case of the latter similarly constructed stock would continue to run until 2005.

(I know you know but others may not!).

Like many SR EPB cars, both trailers had former lives in 4SUB units - 15031 was originally "augmentation trailer" 10192 built new in 1948 for converting pre-war stock from 3car to 4 car, 15308 was built in 1955 on a 1928 underframe previously used in pre war car 9215 (under a wooden body converted from hauled stock) initially in a trailer unit until they were disbanded in 1943 and used to convert 3SUBs to 4SUBs.

There was, of course, nothing wrong with the structural integrity of these underframes - on the contrary, one of them was strong enough to slice through the (steel) superstructure of the adjacent carriage.

 

[DustyBin]

Like many SR EPB cars, both trailers had former lives in 4SUB units - 15031 was originally "augmentation trailer" 10192 built new in 1948 for converting pre-war stock from 3car to 4 car, 15308 was built in 1955 on a 1928 underframe previously used in pre war car 9215 (under a wooden body converted from hauled stock) initially in a trailer unit until they were disbanded in 1943 and used to convert 3SUBs to 4SUBs.

There was, of course, nothing wrong with the structural integrity of these underframes - on the contrary, one of them was strong enough to slice through the (steel) superstructure of the adjacent carriage.

Yes, the age of the former SUB trailer and 15308’s underframe is noted in the report, but not in itself deemed a contributory factor (they were sturdy as you say!).

What I’m not clear about is whether there was a difference between the SR and BR design units which made the former more susceptible to overriding and telescoping? The units could obviously work together so presumably the outer couplings were the same, but were the inner coupling details different? Or was it simply a case of the BR design bodies being stronger?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Yes, the age of the former SUB trailer and 15308’s underframe is noted in the report, but not in itself deemed a contributory factor (they were sturdy as you say!).

What I’m not clear about is whether there was a difference between the SR and BR design units which made the former more susceptible to overriding and telescoping? The units could obviously work together so presumably the outer couplings were the same, but were the inner coupling details different? Or was it simply a case of the BR design bodies being stronger?

Probably just random which pair of cars telescoped - maybe the middle ones were subject to the most compressive force simply because they were in the middle. There was certainly little if any difference in the coupling arrrangments within each type of unit, as there were several hybrid units (BR motor coaches and SR trailers) From memory, units 5261, 5262, 5301, 5302.

 

[eastwestdivide]

There was certainly little if any difference in the coupling arrrangments within each type

Yes, they all had the single central buffer plus chain coupling (unlike the otherwise similar DEMU coaches which had a buckeye type).
Useful photos of the inner ends if you scroll down a bit at

https://www.bloodandcustard.com/sR-4epb.html

 

[Taunton]

The surprising thing (to the rolling stock engineers) was the extent of the overriding damage, way back at I think cars 6/7 in the formation, at such a colliding low speed, about 5mph. One seating bay was completely crushed. The speed was sufficiently low that a number of passengers, in typical Southern commuter fashion of the era, had actually alighted onto the platform before the train struck the buffers. There had obviously been EPB bufferstop collisions before over the years, but not causing this damage.

Irony was that the Southern, with the LNER, had both adopted the buckeye even before nationalisation, stating its overriding prevention advantage, but whereas they were on every coach in a hauled formation, in an emu they were only at the unit ends.

 

[contrex]

The surprising thing (to the rolling stock engineers) was the extent of the overriding damage, way back at I think cars 6/7 in the formation, at such a colliding low speed, about 5mph. One seating bay was completely crushed.

I don't know what speed SUBS 4661 and 4745 collided at on 3.9.73 at Dorking North, but I thought the Cannon Street buffer collision was supposed to be more like 10 to 15 mph.

 

[yorksrob]

I do wonder whether "cup and cone" would have prevented such damage for a low speed collision such as Cannon Street.

 

[contrex]

I do wonder whether "cup and cone" would have prevented such damage for a low speed collision such as Cannon Street.

Possibly, but they hadn't been invented in the late 1940s, and retrofitting was never going to happen.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Possibly, but they hadn't been invented in the late 1940s, and retrofitting was never going to happen.

It (cup and cone) was seriously proposed for the CEP/CIG types, which lasted in service a bit longer but were of similar construction.

I don't know what speed SUBS 4661 and 4745 collided at on 3.9.73 at Dorking North, but I thought the Cannon Street buffer collision was supposed to be more like 10 to 15 mph.

The fact that the train hit an immovable object (the station concourse) rather than another train was probably a factor.

The surprising thing (to the rolling stock engineers) was the extent of the overriding damage, way back at I think cars 6/7 in the formation,

Five and six according to the report (the first two coaches of the middle unit). It also reports that the fifth coach had been in a previous collision in 1958, although undamaged as it was at the rear of a train that ran into another one.