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Aylesbury electrification - how would this happen?

cle

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If the Met was segregated and removed (Watford / Junction only) - then the Aylesbury line could be wired. But you'd have to have 2tph Chesham and 2tph A/AVP, or so.

I'd prefer Met and Euston/DC LO services at Watford (no Bakerloo) - better for platform heights and the 4tph service is doing well. Bakerloo will one day maybe have to go down to Hayes - quite a slog, and would need more units, where these are not catered for. It's the best service (and stock) the line has ever had, that I can recall.
 
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A S Leib

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But you'd have to have 2tph Chesham and 2tph A/AVP, or so.
Why wouldn't 4 tph to Aylesbury be managable? I thought the Four Lines Modernisation was meant (pre-Covid) to lead to 6 tph to Watford, 2 tph to Chesham and 4 tph to Amersham.
 

HSTEd

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My own personal view on this is that the best option for society would be for the DfT to contract with TfL to provide two fastish S-stock operated services from Bakers Street to Aylesbury in the Chiltern paths. I expect you would also extend the two current Amersham terminators to Aylesbury, but the details would obviously be subject to negotiation.

The line would then be turned over to London Underground from Aylesbury station southwards. This would eliminate the ORR's opposition to third rail as London Underground is exempt from that determination, allowing a fourth rail extension. This would require the construction of a handful of footbridges, however.

Service to Aylesbury itself and Aylesbury Vale Parkway would be maintained via Princess Risborough. This would, in theory, allow the depot to be retained if that was desired.

I don't think Marylebone has much to offer as a terminus that isn't offered by Baker Street, and it would allow the tripcocks on the existing LU alignment to go, plus track simplifications in London.
 
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Bletchleyite

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AVP might presently be a bit of a backwater, but there is a LOT more housing development to come around there so could feasibly end up being busier than Aylesbury station itself. Thus I would be reluctant to suggest that it would be a good idea to withdraw its service via Amersham. If LU are taking over, they should also run on that section.
 

cle

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Why wouldn't 4 tph to Aylesbury be managable? I thought the Four Lines Modernisation was meant (pre-Covid) to lead to 6 tph to Watford, 2 tph to Chesham and 4 tph to Amersham.
It would - I was thinking about Chiltern's paths out of Marylebone. 2tph to Amersham total would be too few. So maybe it's 4tph to Marylebone and 2tph to Watford Junction....

Also - One day if OOC is sending out 4tph toward High Wycombe, Marylebone could be more freed up for frequency via Amersham. As well as longer distance services (~2-3tph Oxford, ~3tph Banbury/beyond) - leaves 4-6tph for via Amersham which seems about right. In theory it could be more because it peels off at Neasden - less conflict. All slows go to OOC.
 

HSTEd

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AVP might presently be a bit of a backwater, but there is a LOT more housing development to come around there so could feasibly end up being busier than Aylesbury station itself. Thus I would be reluctant to suggest that it would be a good idea to withdraw its service via Amersham. If LU are taking over, they should also run on that section.
Whilst going north of Aylesbury might be a good idea, it would require future units using the line via Princess RIsborough (freight or passenger trains to E-W rail) to use battery or dual voltage units, since I don't think there is enough space for more than two tracks north of the station, and the section to AVP is probably too long to be operated single track. Unless only two trains per hour went up there analogously to Chesham.
 

Zomboid

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There's plenty of space north of Aylesbury station for an extra track once we've electrified and don't need the heavy maintenance depot there.
 

MatthewHutton

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The other big challenge with removing Marylebone service to Aylesbury is what happens when the northern extension to Milton Keynes is done?
 

Zomboid

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I don't think the big idea was that it would be MK to Marylebone anyhow.
If TfL take over the regular service to AVP then the obvious service would be MK to Princes Risborough, or just turn it round in Aylesbury.
 

Dr Hoo

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(Snip)

The line would then be turned over to London Underground from Aylesbury station southwards. This would eliminate the ORR's opposition to third rail as London Underground is exempt from that determination, allowing a fourth rail extension. This would require the construction of a handful of footbridges. (Snip)

Can you provide a source for the claimed (and implicitly ‘blanket’) London Underground ‘exemption’?

The ORR policy statement goes into some detail about how the LUL extensions have been effectively ‘inaccessible’ (by virtue of the fact that extensions such as Battersea Power Station and Heathrow Terminal 5 are in underground tunnels). I am far from clear that such a view would be taken about a line in open country simply because it happened to be operated by LUL.

I am not expecting semantic distinctions about ‘fourth rail’ not being the same as third rail being advanced.
 

Zomboid

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There's probably an argument about LUL not having a credible alternative, especially for extending deep lines above the surface (where would a pantograph go?), which might be a harder argument to make for the sub surface lines, you could conceivably fit a pan to trains that size (and remember, it doesn't have to be 25kV, the Tyne & Wear Metro uses 1500V DC).

Also, to use semantics about 4th rail, the voltages are lower, the highest voltage to earth is only 440V on most of the underground.

Batteries look more of a viable option now than they have historically, but that might raise questions about the safety of large capacity storage of chemical energy in the tunnelled sections (the same might be said on Merseyrail though, and they're using battery trains there, so that may well be solvable).
 

HSTEd

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Can you provide a source for the claimed (and implicitly ‘blanket’) London Underground ‘exemption’?
It is discussed at some length in the RSSB Report 'DECARB: 21st Century DC electrification infill (T1214)'.
It appears that London Underground were able to make the case that their system of work and operational characteristics, such as lack of level crossings, lack of working near live rails etc satisified the "So Far As Is Reasonably Practicable" criterion.

The ORR policy statement goes into some detail about how the LUL extensions have been effectively ‘inaccessible’ (by virtue of the fact that extensions such as Battersea Power Station and Heathrow Terminal 5 are in underground tunnels). I am far from clear that such a view would be taken about a line in open country simply because it happened to be operated by LUL.
Given the safety profile of third rail systems, LU's working practices already exclude a large part of the fatalities and injuries seen on the Network Rail system.
Fewer staff shocks and greatly restricted access to the track for members of the public, even in open country.

EDIT: Fixed link.
 
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Dr Hoo

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It is discussed at some length in the RSSB Report 'DECARB: 21st Century DC electrification infill (T1214)'.
It appears that London Underground were able to make the case that their system of work and operational characteristics, such as lack of level crossings, lack of working near live rails etc satisified the "So Far As Is Reasonably Practicable" criterion.
Seems to be a 'dead link'. Possibly only available to RSSB 'members'?
 

HSTEd

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Seems to be a 'dead link'. Possibly only available to RSSB 'members'?
Apologies, I made a mistake when making up the link. It should be working now.
The full text of the report is only available to RSSB members accounts, but those accounts seem to be relatively freely granted if requested.
 
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It doesn't make much sense to me for Aylesbury to be served on a London Underground line. LUL should be trying it's best to be a metro and it'd be some what awkward for LUL to run a whole bunch of metro lines and then one outer-suburban bordering on regional service. Extending their maintenance and incident response coverage deep into the countryside sounds kind of inefficient as does maintaining a micro-fleet with very different characteristics to the rest of their trains. What's more I don't think it's at all guaranteed that DC conductor rail electrification of the Aylesbury line would be sanctioned just because it's TfL. I doubt that line will match the levels of segregation that most LUL infrastructure has. In any case, I am opposed in principle to extending 3rd rail electrification to places where it doesn't already exist - this, to me, doesn't seem like an obvious extension of pre-existing infrastructure like is the case with the Uckfield line or Guildford to Redhill. In part because of the possibility of a connection with EWR, and national rail services that would still be interacting with Aylesbury from Princes Risborough.

Having the line become part of another crossrail scheme is probably the most sensible solution with Met services cut back to Watford and Uxbridge only - that way you can strengthen service on the sub-surface main circle.
I'd say running the Aylesbury line as part of the Met is an idea probably more strange then just wiring the whole line including to Chesham and cutting the Met to Watford. I'll concede that issues facing that would be capacity on between Marylebone and Harrow probably requiring a grade separation of the junction at Neasden and the high number of overbridges between Harrow and Aylesbury which would slow the programme down.
 

sad1e

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It doesn't make much sense to me for Aylesbury to be served on a London Underground line. LUL should be trying it's best to be a metro and it'd be some what awkward for LUL to run a whole bunch of metro lines and then one outer-suburban bordering on regional service. Extending their maintenance and incident response coverage deep into the countryside sounds kind of inefficient as does maintaining a micro-fleet with very different characteristics to the rest of their trains. What's more I don't think it's at all guaranteed that DC conductor rail electrification of the Aylesbury line would be sanctioned just because it's TfL. I doubt that line will match the levels of segregation that most LUL infrastructure has. In any case, I am opposed in principle to extending 3rd rail electrification to places where it doesn't already exist - this, to me, doesn't seem like an obvious extension of pre-existing infrastructure like is the case with the Uckfield line or Guildford to Redhill. In part because of the possibility of a connection with EWR, and national rail services that would still be interacting with Aylesbury from Princes Risborough.

Having the line become part of another crossrail scheme is probably the most sensible solution with Met services cut back to Watford and Uxbridge only - that way you can strengthen service on the sub-surface main circle.
I'd say running the Aylesbury line as part of the Met is an idea probably more strange then just wiring the whole line including to Chesham and cutting the Met to Watford. I'll concede that issues facing that would be capacity on between Marylebone and Harrow probably requiring a grade separation of the junction at Neasden and the high number of overbridges between Harrow and Aylesbury which would slow the programme down.
If met line services were to be cut back to Watford i would have the Croxley link built alongside the cutbacks to get more use out of the Watford met branch. Everything required for the line is there and all it needs is some vegetation clearance and new track being laid.

Its only a matter of funding if TfL funding is as scarce as it is now you wouldn't even have to build intermediate stations , just leave passive provision for them and build them at a later date if demand calls for it.

With Amersham and Chesham no longer on the met you could see a much higher Level of service along the Croxley link then is currently seen on the Watford Branch
 

Zomboid

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Everything required for the line is there and all it needs is some vegetation clearance and new track being laid
Plus a bridge, electrification, stations, formation widening, signals...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Moving the northern met service to Chiltern at current levels will put 4 extra trains per hour into MYB. Where's the capacity for that coming from? You might create a bit by diverting the Wycombe stoppers to OOC when that's open, but that won't completely solve it.
 

A S Leib

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With Amersham and Chesham no longer on the met you could see a much higher Level of service along the Croxley link then is currently seen on the Watford Branch
I'm not convinced more than 6 tph off-peak would be needed (but not undesirable). Currently, journey times between Watford (Met) and Euston Square, and Watford High Street and Euston (without doubling back via Watford Junction, which I suspect is more common than going all the way by Overground*) are more or less identical. As important as I think Watford – and Amersham and Chesham – keeping City services** is, I think that means a lot of passengers for central London would just get the first service which turns up. I don't think there's really need for a massively higher frequency through Northwood and Pinner either.

* Euston was only the fourth-most common station pair with Watford High Street in 2023-4, behind Carpenders Park, Hatch End and Harrow & Wealdstone.

**I know that Watford doesn't have off-peak Aldgate services anyway.



It might have been mentioned in this thread already, but – whilst I definitely don't think it should be a factor in deciding whether electrification should go ahead – I suspect the part of the country which got more tunnels planned for HS2 than was necessary would be quite vocal about signs which are too visible of electrification.
 
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HSTEd

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Extending their maintenance and incident response coverage deep into the countryside sounds kind of inefficient as does maintaining a micro-fleet with very different characteristics to the rest of their trains.
Would there be a micro-fleet?
Alstom still market the 'Movia' product, so I would assume that the service to Aylesbury would simply be run by another batch of S-stock. Assuming the fall in peak traffic since coronavirus is not sufficient to cover the extra diagrams by stretching the fleet.

Chiltern currently maintain a microfleet of units fitted with tripcocks to operate over this route, so transfer to LU would likely lead to greater, not lesser, standardisation.
What's more I don't think it's at all guaranteed that DC conductor rail electrification of the Aylesbury line would be sanctioned just because it's TfL. I doubt that line will match the levels of segregation that most LUL infrastructure has. In any case, I am opposed in principle to extending 3rd rail electrification to places where it doesn't already exist - this, to me, doesn't seem like an obvious extension of pre-existing infrastructure like is the case with the Uckfield line or Guildford to Redhill. In part because of the possibility of a connection with EWR, and national rail services that would still be interacting with Aylesbury from Princes Risborough.
Aylesbury is well enough provided with platforms that services could be kept seperate if it was desired.
I also can't see any real purpose to running trains from EWR onto the northern Metropolitan line, it's not a fast route at the best of times.

As to extension, once a handful of footbridges are built, I can't see how its fundamentally different to any other section of London Underground surface running.
That ORR specifically did not extend its presumption against approval to LU installations is very telling, in my view.

This line has been an awkward add on to the British Rail/Network Rail system since the Great Central Main Line was axed.
I think a major lesson of the last several decades is that people don't care that much who runs the service, they care that the service is run.

Sure, it extends a substantial distance beyond London, but the railway must cleave first to railway geography, not political geography.
LU operating this stub and allowing Network Rail to wash its hands of it seems the most elegant option available. Just as transferring the Waterloo and City line to London Underground made sense at privatisation.

Having the line become part of another crossrail scheme is probably the most sensible solution with Met services cut back to Watford and Uxbridge only - that way you can strengthen service on the sub-surface main circle.
I'd say running the Aylesbury line as part of the Met is an idea probably more strange then just wiring the whole line including to Chesham and cutting the Met to Watford. I'll concede that issues facing that would be capacity on between Marylebone and Harrow probably requiring a grade separation of the junction at Neasden and the high number of overbridges between Harrow and Aylesbury which would slow the programme down.
That's all going to be extremely expensive.
There does not appear to be any money for this.

It's ~46 track kilometres above Amersham alone, which at current prices for 25kV will be something in the region of £90-180m. Let alone any work south of Amersham.
 
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sad1e

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Plus a bridge, electrification, stations, formation widening, signals...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Moving the northern met service to Chiltern at current levels will put 4 extra trains per hour into MYB. Where's the capacity for that coming from? You might create a bit by diverting the Wycombe stoppers to OOC when that's open, but that won't completely solve it.
I don't think formation widening would be necessary as long as the existing station platforms at Watford west and stadium were removed. most of the line seems wide enough for double tracks .
There is only one bridge i know of on the Croxley green line that is only wide enough for a single track and that's only a short span over the Colnbrook so wouldn't be super expensive to replace

With signalling that would have to be brand new considering that the Croxley green branch only ever had 2 signals along its whole length (although some of the wiring could be reused)

The 3rd rail is heavily damaged and removed in some parts. I heavily doubt any of the existing 3rd rail would be reused.

Even though this is just speculation i do hope TfL eventually get around to building the Croxley link one day.
 

SynthD

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When calculating how much of a route needs to be electrified for discontinuous electrification, does the power source matter? On this route, a battery train could be under the wires Marylebone to Neasden and Wendover to Aylesbury, and use LUL fourth rail from Harrow to Amersham. Are those two sources equally effective at charging the battery?
 

Zomboid

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When calculating how much of a route needs to be electrified for discontinuous electrification, does the power source matter? On this route, a battery train could be under the wires Marylebone to Neasden and Wendover to Aylesbury, and use LUL fourth rail from Harrow to Amersham. Are those two sources equally effective at charging the battery?
You can get a lot more power from a 25kV source than you can at 660-750V.
If you're doing a 25kV/ Battery train and putting wires up for MYB and most of the country end then there's probably no need to complicate things with 4th rail equipment. Though the length of the layovers at either end will be a factor in how much charging would be available.
 

MatthewHutton

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Plus a bridge, electrification, stations, formation widening, signals...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Moving the northern met service to Chiltern at current levels will put 4 extra trains per hour into MYB. Where's the capacity for that coming from? You might create a bit by diverting the Wycombe stoppers to OOC when that's open, but that won't completely solve it.
St Pancras does 6tph on 4 platforms, if Marylebone did the same it could handle 9tph which is more than it currently does off peak which is 7tph.

And frankly for commuter service you should be able to do a 30 minute turnaround which means it could handle 12tph.
 

CyrusWuff

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Would there be a micro-fleet?
Alstom still market the 'Movia' product, so I would assume that the service to Aylesbury would simply be run by another batch of S-stock. Assuming the fall in peak traffic since coronavirus is not sufficient to cover the extra diagrams by stretching the fleet.

Chiltern currently maintain a microfleet of units fitted with tripcocks to operate over this route, so transfer to LU would likely lead to greater, not lesser, standardisation.
On the contrary. Other than the loco-hauled sets and 196s, all of the Chiltern fleet is equipped with tripcocks so can run over the Met.
 
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You can get a lot more power from a 25kV source than you can at 660-750V.
If you're doing a 25kV/ Battery train and putting wires up for MYB and most of the country end then there's probably no need to complicate things with 4th rail equipment. Though the length of the layovers at either end will be a factor in how much charging would be available.
I'd also imagine you'd need to design the power system to provide significantly more current than you normally would if all trains are charging as well as accelerating. Maybe AT feeding would be required?
Would there be a micro-fleet?
Alstom still market the 'Movia' product, so I would assume that the service to Aylesbury would simply be run by another batch of S-stock. Assuming the fall in peak traffic since coronavirus is not sufficient to cover the extra diagrams by stretching the fleet.

Chiltern currently maintain a microfleet of units fitted with tripcocks to operate over this route, so transfer to LU would likely lead to greater, not lesser, standardisation.
S stock's internal layout is not really appropriate for outer suburban work. I think you said they'd be express only anyway. That'd be a downgrade in comfort and provisions for those passengers. You'd want airline seating, toilets and a higher top speed - interventions that are a bit more involved than trip cocks.
I can't see how its fundamentally different to any other section of London Underground surface running.
That ORR specifically did not extend its presumption against approval to LU installations is very telling, in my view.
I just doubt the orr made that exception with this sort of thing in mind. The last bit of surface running underground must have been the jubilee line to strarford which is quite significantly walled/fenced off.
Sure, it extends a substantial distance beyond London, but the railway must cleave first to railway geography, not political geography.
That's not what I was saying. It's a different kind of the railway to the metro services that LUL should be focusing on. My view already is that the met line would be better without Amersham and Chesham branches.
That's all going to be extremely expensive.
There does not appear to be any money for this.

It's ~46 track kilometres above Amersham alone, which at current prices for 25kV will be something in the region of £90-180m. Let alone any work south of Amersham.
Nothing anyone is talking about is actually cheap. We don't even have a number for what dc electrification costs as that kind of work isn't done anymore - Kennington to battersea wouldn't be comparable anyway. There's more under the surface with dc electrification with the underground HV AC equipment.

I don't think AC electrification for the Aylesbury line is a particularly major priority. But if we instituted a rolling electrification programme like we should do anyway it would cost less.
 

Railwaysceptic

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It doesn't make much sense to me for Aylesbury to be served on a London Underground line. LUL should be trying it's best to be a metro and it'd be some what awkward for LUL to run a whole bunch of metro lines and then one outer-suburban bordering on regional service. Extending their maintenance and incident response coverage deep into the countryside sounds kind of inefficient as does maintaining a micro-fleet with very different characteristics to the rest of their trains. . . . . . . .
TfL agree with you. They're not going back to Aylesbury. Incidentally they're also not relinquishing the large revenue stream from stations south of Amersham.
 

mr_jrt

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I say this every time it comes up, so apologies for those reading it again.

Only option that makes logical sense to me is cutting the Met back to Watford and Uxbridge, and maybe Rickmansworth at an absolute push if you could justify rebuilding it and extending the four tracks from Watford south junction to it (which I think you would struggle with, IMHO), though you would need at least a single track to the stabling there unless you recreated new provision elsewhere, such as reinstating the sidings at Watford Junction, or something at Watford Met.

Chiltern then provides the Amersham service, and Chesham goes back to a shuttle.

Once segregated, OHLE is installed from Neasden Junction to Aylesbury via HotH and the fast lines. The tracks are then slowly upgraded to higher speeds (90/100) where possible. Finally, platforms are extended to support longer NR formations (i.e. 8x20m).
 

PeterC

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I say this every time it comes up, so apologies for those reading it again.

Only option that makes logical sense to me is cutting the Met back to Watford and Uxbridge, and maybe Rickmansworth at an absolute push if you could justify rebuilding it and extending the four tracks from Watford south junction to it (which I think you would struggle with, IMHO), though you would need at least a single track to the stabling there unless you recreated new provision elsewhere, such as reinstating the sidings at Watford Junction, or something at Watford Met.

Chiltern then provides the Amersham service, and Chesham goes back to a shuttle.

Once segregated, OHLE is installed from Neasden Junction to Aylesbury via HotH and the fast lines. The tracks are then slowly upgraded to higher speeds (90/100) where possible. Finally, platforms are extended to support longer NR formations (i.e. 8x20m).
My view as well although capacity issues at Marylebone would get in the way. That brings us back to the abandoned Crossrail option.
 

cle

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I don't think the big idea was that it would be MK to Marylebone anyhow.
If TfL take over the regular service to AVP then the obvious service would be MK to Princes Risborough, or just turn it round in Aylesbury.
My take here would be a north/west-facing bay at High Wycombe, would need to be no longer than 4 cars. Which could take up the route to Aylesbury, and on to MKC. Maybe you could get to 2tph one day. Another option would be to send it to OOC, per below.

Moving the northern met service to Chiltern at current levels will put 4 extra trains per hour into MYB. Where's the capacity for that coming from? You might create a bit by diverting the Wycombe stoppers to OOC when that's open, but that won't completely solve it.
It was mentioned that OOC might turn 4tph from Chiltern (HW, Banbury, Oxford, Aylesbury/MKC) - I'd think 2x 2tph better personally - but this would free up a decent amount of paths out of Marylebone.

And don't forget, they only have to get to Neasden. Tons of capacity between there and Harrow on the Hill. You could comfortably flight a fast and a slow (Chesham?) - but line speeds don't make it so worthwhile. Croxley/Watford Junction would be helpful here, re upping Chiltern/simplifying the Met.
 

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