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RMT order members not to load railcard discounts?

Jan Mayen

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There appears to be a story in The Telegraph which says that The RMT have ordered members not to load Railcard discounts onto Oyster Cards. It's behind a pay wall, so I can't read all of it. Does anyone have any more information?

This is all I can copy and paste. I shall try and provide a link as well. Apologies if I don't do all if this totally in accordance with forum rules, but I only have a smartphone to do it on.

Edit:
"https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...lose-out-on-oyster-railcard-discounts-unions/

TfL passengers lose out on Oyster railcard discounts after union order​

Commuters forced to pay higher off-peak fares unless they travel to stations not on the London Overground"
 
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signed

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A trade union has ordered frontline staff not to load railcard discounts onto London Overground passengers’ Oyster cards.

The RMT union said the move was because “errors” by members had led to “disciplinary action”.

The move by the RMT – seen as one of the more militant unions – will see passengers forced to pay higher off-peak fares unless they travel to stations not on the London Overground.

It comes after warnings that the UK faces a “summer of discontent” from unions following the long-running bin strike in Birmingham that has left rubbish piled high on the city’s streets.

Labour offered billions of pounds worth of pay rises to unionised public sector workers last year, forcing Rachel Reeves, the Chancellor, to raise taxes in the Autumn Budget.

A copy of the RMT London Overground branch members’ magazine, called Orange Is The New Black, revealed how the ban on loading discounts came about.

“We are aware that some members, including agency colleagues, have been performing this task in isolation. Unfortunately, some have faced disciplinary action for errors made while carrying out a duty strongly advised against by the union,” it said. “Our stance remains clear: this is not part of the roles we do.”

It went on to claim that Arriva Rail London, the Overground operator, had told staff to “apologise and inform [passengers] that you are unable to do that activity” if asked to add discounts to Oyster cards.

This, the newsletter said, only came about following pressure from RMT shop stewards who said it was not part of unionised staff’s jobs to help passengers obtain discounts, although a company spokesman denied that such an instruction had been given.

Rail union militancy has soared​

Adding Railcard discounts to an Oyster card is only possible if a staff member does it for you, according to the Transport for London (TfL) website. Railcards, such as Two Together or the Network Railcard, typically offer a one-third discount that applies to off-peak train travel.

They can be loaded onto an Oyster card so the discount is applied to pay-as-you-go daily fare caps as well as Oyster Travelcard fares.

A spokesman for Arriva Rail London said: “London Overground employees have not been instructed to avoid applying discounts to Oyster cards. It has been acknowledged that this is not part of their job description, therefore we do not expect or request that colleagues undertake this task.

“We know that several colleagues are willing to perform this task for the benefit of our customers. We are therefore making training available for colleagues who wish to undertake this task at certain locations.”

Rail union militancy has soared in the past few years, with the Government handing train workers 15 per cent pay rises last summer in an effort to quell ongoing strikes.

That move backfired after train drivers, typically the highest paid staff in the industry, banked the backdated pay increases and stopped accepting overtime shifts, triggering cancellations over the winter.

Hull Trains has been beset by strikes organised by Aslef, the drivers’ union, after one of its members was sacked for falling asleep while driving 125mph long distance services. Internal letters seen by The Telegraph revealed that the individual had a history of doing so, and had been supported by bosses previously.

Although a 56-day strike was called by Aslef over the sacking, the effect has been confined to minor disruption to the company’s timetables.

The RMT did not respond to a request for comment.
Full article above

The RMT says loading Oyster is not part of Overground staff role because some have made mistakes and have been disciplined (now, what kind of mistakes can someone do when presented with a railcard and oyster)
 

TFN

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The article has quite a few errors. The Two Together and Network Railcards are 2 of the 4 railcards that can’t go on an Oyster card in the first place.

If staff are doing putting those discounts when they’re not supposed to then getting in trouble after the fact, I see why the union advises its members not to apply anything.
 

CyrusWuff

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Full article above

The RMT says loading Oyster is not part of Overground staff role because some have made mistakes and have been disciplined (now, what kind of mistakes can someone do when presented with a railcard and oyster)
The main mistake would be choosing the wrong discount from the list when adding it, such as selecting one of the three Priv options instead of the Railcard one.

Or adding a discount when it's not valid (16-17 Saver, Family & Friends, Network or Two Together off the top of my head.)

That said, TfL have never officially said that London Overground staff can set Railcard discounts on Oyster since they stopped being able to do so at Ticket Offices about five years ago.
 

Mawkie

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The usual non-story from the right wing press.

The actual headline should read: staff not doing what company isn't asking them to do anyway.

A spokesman for Arriva Rail London said: “London Overground employees have not been instructed to avoid applying discounts to Oyster cards. It has been acknowledged that this is not part of their job description, therefore we do not expect or request that colleagues undertake this task.
 

Falcon1200

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It is a story if some staff have been doing this, leading passengers to expect the same in future! However the RMT are right in what they have said. What should happen now is that staff are fully trained and supported in dealing with such requests so that a consistent and passenger-friendly service is provided in future.
 

Mawkie

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It is a story if some staff have been doing this, leading passengers to expect the same in future!
CSAs on London Underground used to be able to resolve failed touch ins/outs on the station ticket machine (POMS) - until they couldn't anymore.

"Sorry, LU don't permit us to do that anymore."

It doesn't take long to change customer behaviour.
 

MotCO

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So where can you get discounts added to Oysters if you are nowhere near an Underground station, e.g. south of the Thames? Do BR stations do it? If BR stations can do it, why can't Overground stations, which not so long ago were BR stations? (I know BR does not exist, but you know what I mean.)
 

Lewisham2221

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So where can you get discounts added to Oysters if you are nowhere near an Underground station, e.g. south of the Thames? Do BR stations do it? If BR stations can do it, why can't Overground stations, which not so long ago were BR stations? (I know BR does not exist, but you know what I mean.)

Add your discount to your Oyster card
Register your Oyster card online if you're adding a discount to it and want to apply for refunds or replacements.

Then, get the Railcard discount added to your Oyster card by a staff member at:

Tube, some London Overground and some Elizabeth line stations
Oyster Ticket Stops
You'll need to show your National Railcard.
 

CyrusWuff

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So where can you get discounts added to Oysters if you are nowhere near an Underground station, e.g. south of the Thames? Do BR stations do it? If BR stations can do it, why can't Overground stations, which not so long ago were BR stations? (I know BR does not exist, but you know what I mean.)
Since Cubic stopped offering a National Rail Ticket Office system, it's only officially been London Underground stations and TfL Visitor Centres. Some Elizabeth Line stations (those with Cubic TVMs) can also do it.

London Overground stations with a Cubic TVM also have the facility, but that's the source of the problem mentioned in the OP.
 

Haywain

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Do BR stations do it?
I don't believe any non-TfL National Rail stations (ie not London Overground or Elizabeth line) can do any Oyster transactions other that require manual input by staff.
 

CyrusWuff

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What ticket offices? You can load a discount at Travel Centres
London Overground and Chiltern used Cubic FasTIS until late 2019/early 2020 when they switched to Worldline @station.

Machines at stations in the Travelcard Area (Marylebone and Northolt Park for Chiltern) had full Oyster functionality.

I'm not sure if other NR Ticket Offices that sold Oyster, but didn't use FasTIS as their primary system, could also set discounts though.
 

MotCO

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So basically, if you live at Kingston, Orpington, Caterham, Sutton etc, you cannot easily get discounts loaded onto your ticket. North of the Thames, there are more Underground stations who can oblige.
 

Sonic1234

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So basically, if you live at Kingston, Orpington, Caterham, Sutton etc, you cannot easily get discounts loaded onto your ticket. North of the Thames, there are more Underground stations who can oblige.
Exactly. In theory, Oyster Ticket Stops (the small shops that will top up Oyster cards) can do it. In practice, I'd be surprised if many could do it, or would be willing to attempt (or know what a railcard is!).
 

TUC

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So in terms of meeting customer needs, which is the primary concern of any business, how these to be met in Overground stations?
 

winks

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Why have Two Together and Network Railcards been excluded from being loaded onto Oyster cards ?
 

Haywain

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Why have Two Together and Network Railcards been excluded from being loaded onto Oyster cards ?
Two Together because there is no way of establishing that people are travelling together (similarly with the Family & Friends Railcard), and Network Railcard because of the minimum fare on Monday to Friday.
 

Sonic1234

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Why have Two Together and Network Railcards been excluded from being loaded onto Oyster cards ?
Two Together - because you can't verify the other person is travelling with you. There's no such thing as a group Oyster card, each traveller has their own one.

I'm assuming for the Network railcard no one has worked out how to implement the minimum fare. Do you charge normal fares, and cap at £13 or the Railcard daily cap price if higher? Do you ignore the restrictions, like the same way you can use a 16-25 at 09:30 on Oyster? Or is it discounted on weekends only?
 

PeterC

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Why have Two Together and Network Railcards been excluded from being loaded onto Oyster cards ?
The Standard have picked up the story and quote those two as examples of cards that the "evil union" won't allow to be added.
 

baza585

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I have no problem with RMT telling members not to do anything that isn't in their job description.

I do have a problem with TfL making it very difficult for passengers to obtain the discounts they are entitled to and have paid for when purchasing their Railcard. Perhaps the useless Seb Dance, deputy mayor for Transport could intervene but I won't be holding my breath.......

Sadly no one seems bothered that passengers suffer.
 

RJ

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Exactly. In theory, Oyster Ticket Stops (the small shops that will top up Oyster cards) can do it. In practice, I'd be surprised if many could do it, or would be willing to attempt (or know what a railcard is!).

I wouldn’t stake my life on ticket stops doing it. Some of the ones who are even aware they can do it, simply won’t because they don’t get paid to do it.
 

Watershed

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I have no problem with RMT telling members not to do anything that isn't in their job description.
Legally, yes - but in any sensibly run company, with less adversarial and archaic industrial relations, job descriptions are considered indicative rather than exhaustive. It wouldn't be considered a massive deal to add a small duty like this to the list.

I do have a problem with TfL making it very difficult for passengers to obtain the discounts they are entitled to and have paid for when purchasing their Railcard. Perhaps the useless Seb Dance, deputy mayor for Transport could intervene but I won't be holding my breath.......

Sadly no one seems bothered that passengers suffer.
Absolutely. This is the core of the issue - paper tickets for most journeys within the London Zones were made prohibitively expensive when PAYG was rolled out. The justification for this was that you'd be able to pay roughly the same, or possibly less, by using PAYG. So far, so good. The problem is that this premise has been eroded over the years, as it has become increasingly harder to access PAYG discounts for those entitled to them.

It's something that is worthwhile taking up with your London Assembly Member if you're affected. A good AM should be willing to hold TfL accountable.

Unfortunately, those who live outside London are somewhat stuck. Their MPs are unlikely to be interested, or may just blithely refer you to a canned statement by TfL.
 

Egg Centric

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Legally, yes - but in any sensibly run company, with less adversarial and archaic industrial relations, job descriptions are considered indicative rather than exhaustive. It wouldn't be considered a massive deal to add a small duty like this to the list.

It also doesn't seem very forward thinking for roles that are potentially threatened by automation. Easier to make a position redundant if you can point to their job description and say "that's exhaustive, they can't do anything else - look they even said so themselves".
 

infobleep

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I wouldn’t stake my life on ticket stops doing it. Some of the ones who are even aware they can do it, simply won’t because they don’t get paid to do it.
Perhaps The Telegraph could write a story about them not doing it. I won't hold my breath. :lol:

More broadly though, it is a postcode lottery as to where one can get a discount loaded.
 

Krokodil

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It also doesn't seem very forward thinking for roles that are potentially threatened by automation. Easier to make a position redundant if you can point to their job description and say "that's exhaustive, they can't do anything else - look they even said so themselves".
I'm sure that if ARL approached RMT and said that they wanted to train staff to apply discounts there would be no objection.
 

Haywain

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I'm sure that if ARL approached RMT and said that they wanted to train staff to apply discounts there would be no objection.
That rather underestimates the relationship between unions and management in TfL.
 

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