Grand Central apply for Newcastle - Brighton direct

[Starmill]

AIUI, the cross country paths are largely coming back in the timetable changes that are being worked on now. Arriva will know this.

I must say I find this one very odd, IMHO.

Some very interesting reading about how a small slice of this has been going in this document:

https://accessdisputesrail.org/accessDisputesCommitteeIndex/TTPDeterminations/SubmissionsFromTheParties/TTP2570%20-%20XC%20SRD%20Appendices.pdf

For anyone wanting to see the full context it's available here, scroll down to item TTP2570 on the left. https://accessdisputesrail.org/accessDisputesCommitteeIndex/TTPDeterminations/#gsc.tab=0

All in the public domain so not sharing anything confidential...

 

[The Ham]

Some very interesting reading about how a small slice of this has been going in this document:

https://accessdisputesrail.org/accessDisputesCommitteeIndex/TTPDeterminations/SubmissionsFromTheParties/TTP2570%20-%20XC%20SRD%20Appendices.pdf

For anyone wanting to see the full context it's available here, scroll down to item TTP2570 on the left. https://accessdisputesrail.org/accessDisputesCommitteeIndex/TTPDeterminations/#gsc.tab=0

All in the public domain so not sharing anything confidential...

The potential of a 8 (4+4) coach train coupling with a 5 coach unit would mean quite a long train with seating for about 660 people.

(Although it's worth noting that's not actually much more capacity than a pair of 80x's with 5 coaches each, which does highlight that XC using 22x units does cause then issues - even if that's fairly limited)

 

[XCTurbostar]

It wont be a passenger service, this will be 5D69 which will return to Central Rivers TMD as empty stock. This currently exists albeit using less stock.

Im also not sure if this has been shared but the timings are:
HERE

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It isn’t typically cheaper these days. XC turned that on its head years ago. Avoiding London is one of those unsubstantiated railway myths in my opinion.

Not compared with XC nowadays, granted. But a "Route: not London" ticket from say Taunton to somewhere in SWR commuter land can presumably still make a big savings just as it did 20 years ago. Changing at Reading and Clapham Junction on a Taunton to Kingston run was always a good £20 cheaper, and pretty competitive time-wise too compared with going all the way into Paddington and using the Bakerloo to Waterloo.

 

[NCT]

It wont be a passenger service, this will be 5D69 which will return to Central Rivers TMD as empty stock. This currently exists albeit using less stock.

Im also not sure if this has been shared but the timings are:
HERE

Pretty much exactly the vacant Cross Country paths.

Thanks for posting the info.

 

[Driver068]

I'm not sure if it's mentioned anywhere in a document or in a thread, however on looking at the timings it can NOT be Sunderland work so would have to be a new depot more than likely Birmingham. Saying this though there would be lodges in Brighton and Newcaslte but I can't see how a Sunderland driver could cover the work.

 

[8ace]

It wont be a passenger service, this will be 5D69 which will return to Central Rivers TMD as empty stock. This currently exists albeit using less stock.

Im also not sure if this has been shared but the timings are:
HERE

The first and last trains would work out nicely for BHAFC away at NUFC if it was a 3pm k.o

 

[Bald Rick]

The first and last trains would work out nicely for BHAFC away at NUFC if it was a 3pm k.o

Useful about once every three years then!

 

[Snex]

I'm not sure if it's mentioned anywhere in a document or in a thread, however on looking at the timings it can NOT be Sunderland work so would have to be a new depot more than likely Birmingham. Saying this though there would be lodges in Brighton and Newcaslte but I can't see how a Sunderland driver could cover the work.

I could be wrong but it seems to me like it's geared for the work to be split at Sunderland / Newcastle and somewhere midway - probably Burton I'd guess.

To me, it seems like it's going to be this.

Birmingham: 1Z01 -> 1Z06 -> 1Z11: Birmingham
Birmingham: 1Z02 -> 1Z07 -> 1Z12: Birmingham
Newcastle: 1Z03 -> 1Z08: Newcastle
Newcastle: 1Z05 -> 1Z10: Newcastle
Newcastle: 1Z09 -> Overnight at Brighton -> 1Z04: Newcastle (this could be the opposite way aswell but not sure why they'd randomly have a 5 hour gap)

 

[XCTurbostar]

Im struggling to understand how this could be approved. It appears to be abstractive to multiple operators so I highly doubt it will pass an (NPA) test.

Its secondary but I'm fairly sure WTT services are not permitted to run as 1Zxx. 1Vxx and 1Exx would be more realistic.

 

[JonathanH]

1Vxx and 1Exx would be more realistic.

1Oxx not 1Vxx if they are going to the Southern Region, and 1Mxx for the last one off Brighton only going as far as Birmingham.

 

[tfw756rider]

Newcastle, Durham, Darlington, Northallerton, York, Doncaster, Sheffield, Derby, Burton-on-Trent, Birmingham New Street, Warwick Parkway, Banbury, Oxford, Reading, Wokingham, Guildford, Redhill, London Gatwick, Haywards Heath, Brighton

Grand Central calling at "Grand Central"?

 

[The Planner]

Im struggling to understand how this could be approved. It appears to be abstractive to multiple operators so I highly doubt it will pass an (NPA) test.

Its secondary but I'm fairly sure WTT services are not permitted to run as 1Zxx. 1Vxx and 1Exx would be more realistic.

They are 1Z for the purposes of the exercise, they wouldn't be in reality.

 

[8ace]

Useful about once every three years then!

more of a concern would be how the voyager toilet would cope with the amount of cans I would consume.

 

[Starmill]

The potential of a 8 (4+4) coach train coupling with a 5 coach unit would mean quite a long train with seating for about 660 people.

(Although it's worth noting that's not actually much more capacity than a pair of 80x's with 5 coaches each, which does highlight that XC using 22x units does cause then issues - even if that's fairly limited)

Indeed although in this particular case CrossCountry are only attaching the trio to run empty to the depot.

 

[Ted633]

So Gatwick - Reading would take longer on this service than the existing stopping GWR. Quite impressive!

(Apologies if I've misread the timetable!)

 

[The Ham]

So Gatwick - Reading would take longer on this service than the existing stopping GWR. Quite impressive!

(Apologies if I've misread the timetable!)

To a certain extent, as long as the journey time is less than the time taken plus the time gap between the services then it's still a useable service.

For example the current timetable between two places takes 60 minutes with a 30 minute gap between services, as long as any new service leaves place A 10 minutes after one service and arrives place B 10 minutes before the next service arrives (journey time of 70 minutes), people will still use that new service even though it's longer.

That's even more the case if the existing services are fairly busy, so it's the choice of potentially standing for part of your journey or arriving 10 minutes earlier (having left 20 minutes earlier) or arriving 20 minutes later (having left 10 minutes later) and being sure of a seat.

The bottom line is how attractive are those slower services. For example LNER doesn't have to only run the very fast London to Edinburgh service to have a full day of busy trains.

 

[Thebaz]

I realise this is all conjecture at the moment but why stop it at Wokingham and not Dorking Deepdene (okay, leaving aside the fact that Deepdene station is a 3-car shack) or Reigate? It's not as if it would actually slow the service down!

 

[Zomboid]

Maybe those would harm the (unlikely to be passed anyway) abstraction test.

 

[The Ham]

Maybe those would harm the (unlikely to be passed anyway) abstraction test.

Or somewhere which would otherwise would only see an hourly service (such as Farnborough North) which would by having a direct service to places beyond the North Downs Line could make it an attractive place to catch a train from.

Whilst Farnborough North is a fairly small station, it is within a fairly large urban area (the local taxi drivers would be fairly pleased if it did stop there).

 

[Zomboid]

Farnborough North would be a good one if the voyagers have SDO. If not then it'll need platform extensions, which would kill the business case. That whole conurbation is pretty sprawling, yet they're not going to stop anywhere in it. North Camp has some nice long platforms that could accommodate the kind of train that's likely to run this service.

Spoiler: Other OAO

Though I see the SWML Orcats raiders are proposing to open whole new a station at Marchwood (not going to happen), so who knows.

Waterside Line - Grand Union Trains Ltd

Under the 'Alliance' banner, we are also planning to introduce a new service between Marchwood and Southampton and London Waterloo during 2026. Marchwood is currently a closed station and has not seen regular passenger trains since 1966. This service would build on a recent comprehensive study...

www.granduniontrains.co.uk

Is there a thread about that proposal anywhere? Opening a new station is quite ambitious for an OAO.

 

[djox]

Good to see journalists supporting this new service. https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/open-access-train-passenger-fare-b2741704.html

 

[Meerkat]

Who is really going to risk buying an operator specific ticket for an infrequent service to catch a flight?
Reading-Gatwick really just needs them to pull their fingers out and get some BEMUs in that can pull away from the frequent stops and storm the steep hills instead of just converting fuel into noise!

 

[VItraveller]

How long Would the journey from Birmingham New Street to Gatwick be on this service, I suspect the journey time to Oxford would still be the same as the York Reading?

 

[ainsworth74]

How long Would the journey from Birmingham New Street to Gatwick be on this service, I suspect the journey time to Oxford would still be the same as the York Reading?

You can find the draft timetable from the consultation documents attached to this post:

It wont be a passenger service, this will be 5D69 which will return to Central Rivers TMD as empty stock. This currently exists albeit using less stock.

Im also not sure if this has been shared but the timings are:
HERE

 

[JonathanH]

How long Would the journey from Birmingham New Street to Gatwick be on this service, I suspect the journey time to Oxford would still be the same as the York Reading?

Just over three hours from Birmingham to Gatwick - see post 243 above https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...le-brighton-direct.285293/page-9#post-7266016

 

[Iskra]

Who is really going to risk buying an operator specific ticket for an infrequent service to catch a flight?
Reading-Gatwick really just needs them to pull their fingers out and get some BEMUs in that can pull away from the frequent stops and storm the steep hills instead of just converting fuel into noise!

Someone travelling down the night before, and staying in a hotel. Or, someone with an evening/night flight who is happy to leave enough slack in their schedule to make it feasible.

 

[Zomboid]

Someone travelling down the night before, and staying in a hotel. Or, someone with an evening/night flight who is happy to leave enough slack in their schedule to make it feasible.

Arrival at the airport for a departure is easy enough to manage, it's the return journey where you need flexibility for how long the carousel might take or the queue at immigration.

 

[PedroHav]

I think this sort of service would very useful for those living on the Portsmouth main line stations (Havant, Petersfield and Haselmere) and even Chichester, going north of Reading and avoiding crossing London. At present you change at both Guildford and Reading.

 

[Snex]

Someone travelling down the night before, and staying in a hotel. Or, someone with an evening/night flight who is happy to leave enough slack in their schedule to make it feasible.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to do that when you could do the same flight from a nearby airport with a connection. I could understand if you were driving as it could be cheaper but unless this service is £15 or so, there's absolutely no reason why you'd do it. It'll never be competitive, especially throwing a hotel room on top.