Avanti London to Glasgow Record Attempt 07/05/2025

[miami]

Am I reading it right - 79m23 just to get to Stafford, and 76m scheduled?

The normal Glasgow trains today are scheduled for 75m, and even with losses en-route can make it faster than that, like the 0730 last Friday.

Realtime Trains | 1S42 0730 London Euston to Glasgow Central | 02/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 1S42 0730 departure from London Euston to Glasgow Central on 02/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[3RDGEN]

Am I reading it right - 79m23 just to get to Stafford, and 76m scheduled?

The normal Glasgow trains today are scheduled for 75m, and even with losses en-route can make it faster than that, like the 0730 last Friday.

Realtime Trains | 1S42 0730 London Euston to Glasgow Central | 02/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 1S42 0730 departure from London Euston to Glasgow Central on 02/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

In 1984 the WCML was a 100/110 railway max, which the APT was permitted to exceed in some areas, there's two 20 and two 50mph TSR's on the run too. In 1984 a Crewe - London non stop service would have been 2 hours maybe a bit less so the 90 min schedule is a big difference, today that's normal for a 390 service.

 

[Railperf]

Didnt it get dispensation to ignore some speed limits?

There was no TASS or EPS limits at the time, so APT test and passenger runs would have been running to specific speed limits agreed with the trakc engineers. It sems that at least north of Preston, higher speeds were attained than are allowed today. for example Preston to Carlisle in 2021 was almost four minutes slower than APT, and astonishingly Carlisle to Glasgow was almost a full 7 minutes faster aboard APT. If I am not mistaken, APT tilted more and seems to have been alowed higher speeds. Of course in BR days, much higher speeds than service speeds were allowed and the sets were shortened to improve acceleration and braking. The Tees-Tyne Pullman utilised a 2+5 HST set and was allowed to exceed 125mph and up to 140mph for large swathes of the journey. But in those days there was no TASS, TPWS systems to have to worry about. What makes the June 2021 Avanti attempt notable was that it was run at normal service speeds utilising a standard trainset with no modifications and no special dispnesation to run at higher speeds. COVID wrecked that attempt, because the driver had to use speed hold device that automatically seems to hold the speed at around 1mph less than the slected speed. So 125mph sections were run at closer to 124mph. There were many instances of lower speed sections run at speeds slightly less than the actual speed limit. It is known that the run could have been faster had the driver been allowed to control the speed manually, but it was clearly deemed to be too risky to exect a single driver on his own in the cab to maintain that level of concentration for 4 hours solid.

Several average speeds of 126mph so I imagine the limits were exceeded a bit… fascinating document!

Yes, the biggest disappointment of the West Coast upgrade is that the performance at the northern end of the line never reached the levels that APT promised. But the Southern End of the route delivered a performance superior to APT. It's no secret the money was spent on the southern section which supported the high frequency services to Birmingham Manchester and Liverpool - and that cutbacks were made on the Northern section which was only going to support an hourly Glasgow and an infrequent service to Preston and Blackpool

Am I reading it right - 79m23 just to get to Stafford, and 76m scheduled?

The normal Glasgow trains today are scheduled for 75m, and even with losses en-route can make it faster than that, like the 0730 last Friday.

Realtime Trains | 1S42 0730 London Euston to Glasgow Central | 02/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 1S42 0730 departure from London Euston to Glasgow Central on 02/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

June 2021 effort took 70min to Stafford

 

[hexagon789]

There was no TASS or EPS limits at the time, so APT test and passenger runs would have been running to specific speed limits agreed with the trakc engineers. It sems that at least north of Preston, higher speeds were attained than are allowed today. for example Preston to Carlisle in 2021 was almost four minutes slower than APT, and astonishingly Carlisle to Glasgow was almost a full 7 minutes faster aboard APT. If I am not mistaken, APT tilted more and seems to have been alowed higher speeds. Of course in BR days, much higher speeds than service speeds were allowed and the sets were shortened to improve acceleration and braking. The Tees-Tyne Pullman utilised a 2+5 HST set and was allowed to exceed 125mph and up to 140mph for large swathes of the journey. But in those days there was no TASS, TPWS systems to have to worry about. What makes the June 2021 Avanti attempt notable was that it was run at normal service speeds utilising a standard trainset with no modifications and no special dispnesation to run at higher speeds. COVID wrecked that attempt, because the driver had to use speed hold device that automatically seems to hold the speed at around 1mph less than the slected speed. So 125mph sections were run at closer to 124mph. There were many instances of lower speed sections run at speeds slightly less than the actual speed limit. It is known that the run could have been faster had the driver been allowed to control the speed manually, but it was clearly deemed to be too risky to exect a single driver on his own in the cab to maintain that level of concentration for 4 hours solid.

There were APT differentials though, posted lineside from about 1979.

Carstairs for instance had a differential limit of APT 115.

 

[Railperf]

There were APT differentials though, posted lineside from about 1979.

Carstairs for instance had a differential limit of APT 115.

IS there any more detailed information on specific APT limits? Didn't they implement C-APT, a cab based display that would display the speed based on a trackside balise?

 

[hexagon789]

IS there any more detailed information on specific APT limits? Didn't they implement C-APT, a cab based display that would display the speed based on a trackside balise?

Yes, a form of transponder based speed advisory system, which required driver acknowledgement of a speed reduction in a similar way to an AWS warning.

The APT-P site has a full list of the applicable APT differentials at the bottom of the C-APT page, should you wish to compare them with modern day TASS limits:

Control - Advanced Passenger Trains

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Driver Aid System (C-APT)​

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A continuous cab display of the maximum permitted APT speeds on sections of track is given by the control system based on transponders, measuring 19" × 36" × 2", mounted on the track at specific intervals.

• Transmitter • Transponder • Receiver • Processor • Speedometer Drive • C-APT Display

​

The men who drive the APT will also drive conventional trains over the same routes, yet APT is allowed to exceed existing speed limits by a substantial margin. To prevent confusion, the higher limits are displayed automatically in the APT cab. This advisory system (C-APT) leaves the driver firmly in control of the train, but gives him a digital advance warning on his desk of the higher APT speed limits.

 

[Railperf]

Yes, a form of transponder based speed advisory system, which required driver acknowledgement of a speed reduction in a similar way to an AWS warning.

The APT-P site has a full list of the applicable APT differentials at the bottom of the C-APT page, should you wish to compare them with modern day TASS limits:

​

The APT speed limits at the north end of the WCML are quite astonishing with 120mph allowed as far as Rutherglen!

 

[hexagon789]

The APT speed limits at the north end of the WCML are quite astonishing with 120mph allowed as far as Rutherglen!

Quite!

But then, wasn't EPS going to apply to Rutherglen originally as well, before being cut back to Carstairs (bar the one short bit through Shieldmuir on the Down line)? Might've seen similarly high speeds.

 

[peteb]

Post #33 above refers to a single driver in a cab for four hours. Doesn't the Pendolino provide the opportunity to change drivers en-route, or does the physical change over require a driver to sign out and another to sign in electronically to the controls? Obviously it might be a bit tricky not releasing the "dead man's handle" or whatever it's current replacement kit is. Forgive my ignorance in this matter!

 

[Railperf]

Several average speeds of 126mph so I imagine the limits were exceeded a bit… fascinating document!

Similarly, Virgin Trains record between Glasgow and Euston in September 2006 travelling in the the other direction featured maximums of 128mph! But a few temporary speed restrictions on the day and adverse signals meant a slower time of 3h 55 min 27 seconds.

Post #33 above refers to a single driver in a cab for four hours. Doesn't the Pendolino provide the opportunity to change drivers en-route, or does the physical change over require a driver to sign out and another to sign in electronically to the controls? Obviously it might be a bit tricky not releasing the "dead man's handle" or whatever it's current replacement kit is. Forgive my ignorance in this matter!

The Southbound record in 2006 used two drivers swapping en route. For reasons related to COVID, it was ruled ut in 2021.It probably would have been two drivers tomorrow if the attempt had gone ahead.

 

[irish_rail]

Similarly, Virgin Trains record between Glasgow and Euston in September 2006 travelling in the the other direction featured maximums of 128mph! But a few temporary speed restrictions on the day and adverse signals meant a slower time of 3h 55 min 27 seconds.


The Southbound record in 2006 used two drivers swapping en route. For reasons related to COVID, it was ruled ut in 2021.It probably would have been two drivers tomorrow if the attempt had gone ahead.

Actually I believe in 2006 it was just the one driver but with another in reserve should the booked driver require a toilet break! I think the one guy ended up driving it the whole time, and, with a run of under 4 hours that really isn't an issue, indeed on the Western we did until 800s came in used to have jobs where we did nearly 4 hours in the driving seat. Once you get over 4 hours it gets a bit trickier, but under 4 hours one driver (with a strong bladder) is all you require.

 

[Tilting007]

I think it is non stop, I am not sure though

Its non-stop

Post #33 above refers to a single driver in a cab for four hours. Doesn't the Pendolino provide the opportunity to change drivers en-route, or does the physical change over require a driver to sign out and another to sign in electronically to the controls? Obviously it might be a bit tricky not releasing the "dead man's handle" or whatever it's current replacement kit is. Forgive my ignorance in this matter!

One driver planned with another onboard but likely the same driver will go straight through.
They can changeover on the move if needed.

 

[Railperf]

Its non-stop

Well not planning to stop. The APT record did suffer a signal stop en-route.

 

[Efini92]

Didnt it get dispensation to ignore some speed limits?

I don’t think speed limits were enforced as much back then. I believe it did manage to get upto 160 at one point.

 

[Peter0124]

I think there's a 50mph temporary speed restriction at Motherwell currently

 

[dangie]

One driver planned with another onboard but likely the same driver will go straight through.
They can changeover on the move if needed.

Does one driver have route knowledge for the whole 400+ miles?
Do normal London-Glasgow services change drivers approx half way?

 

[dk1]

Does one driver have route knowledge for the whole 400+ miles?
Do normal London-Glasgow services change drivers approx half way?

Preston drivers sign the entire route. Special arrangements apply (ASLEF would never agree them otherwise) for occasions like this.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Does one driver have route knowledge for the whole 400+ miles?

Yes, Preston based staff sign the whole route.

Do normal London-Glasgow services change drivers approx half way?

Yes, the change usually happens at Preston (about 2h 10m for each set of crew).

 

[Railperf]

I think there's a 50mph temporary speed restriction at Motherwell currently

There was one last few weeks. I believe it was supposed to have been cleared for tomorrow, but maybe with the run caped, they didn't rush to clear it.

 

[dangie]

I think there's a 50mph temporary speed restriction at Motherwell currently

As I said earlier, should this record attempt be advertised as ‘Network Rail will attempt to break the record for the fastest rail journey between London Euston and Glasgow Central with the assistance of an Avanti Pendolino?’

As we know, the train is more than capable of breaking the record, it’s the infrastructure which determines whether it succeeds or not.

 

[Railperf]

Preston drivers sign the entire route. Special arrangements apply (ASLEF would never agree them otherwise) for occasions like this.

It was a Preston driver last time

 

[dk1]

It was a Preston driver last time

Normally the case. They are the custodians of the WCML.

 

[trebor79]

The APT record will always stand in the history books and one will never know how fast a time it could set on today's 'improved' infrastructure.

Theoretically speaking, if someone had enough money... Could the surviving vehicles return to the rails in the same way as a preserved Deltic, HST etc?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Theoretically speaking, if someone had enough money... Could the surviving vehicles return to the rails in the same way as a preserved Deltic, HST etc?

No - the Hertiage Centre has categorically ruled it out, even if someone offered to pay for it in full.

This is essentially a good marketing and publicity exercise, providing it goes right, or almost right.

Indeed - after all, people still talk about Mallard nearly a century on...

 

[RedKing]

As I said earlier, should this record attempt be advertised as ‘Network Rail will attempt to break the record for the fastest rail journey between London Euston and Glasgow Central with the assistance of an Avanti Pendolino?’

As we know, the train is more than capable of breaking the record, it’s the infrastructure which determines whether it succeeds or not.

Why can't it be both?
Yes, Network Rail own and manage the infrastructure but Avanti are doing the run. I'd like to see Northern give it a go - would be over the same infrastructure..

 

[Class15]

It's hardly a cheat if it completes it. If it beats the time it beats the time. The record is for fastest run from London to Glasgow, and if it makes it to Glasgow faster than the APT, one can't just deny that the APT's run was beaten because it was the new winner's second attempt, nor because the APT "deserves to be remembered."

In my opinion it seems fair that each train operating the WCML gets one shot at the record. If it fails, too bad. Onto the next successor to the Pendolino then (the HS2 trains probably). The Carstairs issue can hardly be used to say that the Pendolino needs a second go as the APT, as mentioned upthread, had a signal stop en route.

So yes, if the 390 beats the APT in September, I will maintain that the APT has the fastest record run from Euston to Glasgow.

While we're at it, I think you could say for the same for the Pendolinos. The first tilting EMU that was an actual success. But that's neither here nor there.

That’s a fair point, but we don’t know if the APT would have been a success. I always thought it strange that it wasn’t given much of a chance.

 

[Peter0124]

I notice a lot of Avantis around now are VAR'd to depart Euston earlier. Would this be to make room for the speed record train even though its been postponed?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

In my opinion it seems fair that each train operating the WCML gets one shot at the record. If it fails, too bad. Onto the next successor to the Pendolino then (the HS2 trains probably). The Carstairs issue can hardly be used to say that the Pendolino needs a second go as the APT, as mentioned upthread, had a signal stop en route.

Why not give a 2nd shot? We don't stop people from achieving new records just because they tried once, we let people keep trying, I don't see why we shouldn't see how fast it can be done.

If an APT were avaliable I'd have no problems with it taking a go at improving its record either.

 

[Railperf]

I notice a lot of Avantis around now are VAR'd to depart Euston earlier. Would this be to make room for the speed record train even though its been postponed?

Yes it would have been. This is a cross industry event with Alstom/ Avanti taking the lead, with the cooperation of network rail and the other train operators who need to adjust their schedules to allow the record run to fit in.

Why not give a 2nd shot? We don't stop people from achieving new records just because they tried once, we let people keep trying, I don't see why we shouldn't see how fast it can be done.

If an APT were avaliable I'd have no problems with it taking a go at improving its record either.

The two runs are very unique and stand in their own right
APT was a preproduction unit - still quite experimental and shortened and running to enhanced limits. Hypothetically, if it were to run today, it would need to be fitted with TASS and TPWS and stick to EPS limits ( unless agreed otherwise) and that would yield different results. Similarly a shortened Pendolino to improve acceleration ( the Pendolino's start feels shockingly slow even to drivers of Class 86's and 87's) and allowed to run at up to APT speed limits could achieve a faster time that it did in 2021. The two runs represent the best times achieved under very different circumstances on infrastructure that has been changed and under different operating conditions.
If it wasn't for a signal stop near Stafford and several TSR's the APT could have set an unbeatable record. To run from Preston to Glasgow almost 11minutes faster (9.5 minutes net if you subtract the 1.5 mins lost at Carstairs) than what was achieved in 2021 shows a level of performance at the Northern end of the WCML in the 1980's that we can only dream about today. To think HS2 trains will be even slower is unthinkable.

 

[dangie]

I received this email from Modern Railways last week regarding tickets for an Avanti record attempt on the London Euston to Glasgow route

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Although this is being advertised as an Avanti record attempt, if it occurs, no doubt the plaudits will go to Avanti. If it should fail (ok the train could break down but that is unlikely), will the failure be attributed to Network Rail?