Reform UK discussion

[Gloster]

Was Denis Healey still serving when he stood and lost in the 1945 general election?

I think that an exception was made in 1945, although it is possible that the current rule was not in force until later on. I have read of various MPs, mostly Conservative, who in earlier years were (if my memory serves me right) officers at the same time, although they might have taken leave from the service once elected.

 

[Railwaycat]

And another...

New councillor Andrew Hamilton-Gray revealed as sacked policeman

Andrew Hamilton-Gray won a seat in Loughborough for Reform, with almost 40% of the vote.

www.bbc.co.uk

I think he just about sums Deform up.

 

[nw1]

I'm not talking about this guy specifically, but one thing that strikes me about Reform is that it's the party for "wide boys".

Also I suspect Basil Fawlty would be a fully-signed-up Reform supporter.

 

[styles]

And another...

New councillor Andrew Hamilton-Gray revealed as sacked policeman

Andrew Hamilton-Gray won a seat in Loughborough for Reform, with almost 40% of the vote.

www.bbc.co.uk

I think he just about sums Deform up.

Pulled a sickie to work on his side gig?

He'd fit in better as an MP or member of the Lords than a councillor to be quite honest.

 

[SteveP29]

The guy referred to above ( in Durham) had a choice. Leave his council job or give up his newly won seat. Reform should have spotted this. The candidate should have spotted this. That they didn't is not an excuse.

I have seen at least 4 other people in a similar situation.

In the opposite way though, the councillor in my parents ward in Chester le Street was re-elected as an independent after being elected for the first time last time round.
He announced via his Facebook page yesterday that he has joined Reform.
To say I'm spitting feathers is an understatement, he used to drink in my local down there years ago, so I know him quite well, I wouldn't spit on him if he was severely dehydrated now.
He ran a campaign trashing Reform at every opportunity and stated that this election was over local matters not national politics.
The reaction to his post is quite telling, almost everyone saying what a duplicitous bas***d he is and that he must have known he was going to do this before the election to join a party only 12 days after the election.
Some are speculating that as he is one of very few who retained their seat in Durham, they've courted him with a cabinet position because of his previous experience as a councillor.

Even 15 hours after finding out, I'd still like to grind his face to dirt (never mind IN the dirt)

 

[styles]

In the opposite way though, the councillor in my parents ward in Chester le Street was re-elected as an independent after being elected for the first time last time round.
He announced via his Facebook page yesterday that he has joined Reform.
To say I'm spitting feathers is an understatement, he used to drink in my local down there years ago, so I know him quite well, I wouldn't spit on him if he was severely dehydrated now.
He ran a campaign trashing Reform at every opportunity and stated that this election was over local matters not national politics.
The reaction to his post is quite telling, almost everyone saying what a duplicitous bas***d he is and that he must have known he was going to do this before the election to join a party only 12 days after the election.
Some are speculating that as he is one of very few who retained their seat in Durham, they've courted him with a cabinet position because of his previous experience as a councillor.

Even 15 hours after finding out, I'd still like to grind his face to dirt (never mind IN the dirt)

Seems like a short sighted strategy. If the resentment towards him for this is as strong as you say then he'll be voted out in 4 years time. Mind you, maybe he's fine with this.

 

[RailWonderer]

Nothing says

Given our ageing population, increasing numbers of young people is desirable so that we can maintain a good standard of living for the elderly and disabled.

They need to be skilled and productive and come and go on rotation, not masses of cheap unskilled labour that stays here and adds tiny amounts of productivity.

Have you ever been to a city state

Without exaggerating, this country is probably heading the way of the Netherlands with small towns and villages near to one another with less stretches of countryside in between them. We have far larger urban masses though than the Dutch.

Hence why we should be continually investing in our infrastructure, instead of sweating Victorian and postwar assets to fund tax cuts to the rich.

That is quite simply due us not building (or converting) enough housing, changes to planning policy in the growing state of Texas recently caused house prices to go down. This current issue is predominantly self-inflicted, due to changes in planning and council house policy.

Again something neither Reform nor Labour has a serious plan of tackling.

Do you want to hazard a guess at the percentage of the UK which is built on?

50%, 30%, 10%?

Even in England (which had higher percentages than the rest of the UK) the percentage of land used for residential uses is 1.2.

Look at Figure 1: Land use by land use group, England 2021 on the link below:

Land use statistics: England 2021 - statistical release

www.gov.uk

Also do you want to hazard a guess at what has meant we've needed more housing for population growth since 1980 or shrinking household sizes since 1980?

For every 5 homes needed due both those factors it's a 3:2 split for shrinking household sizes (3) and population increases (2).

The UK has some of the smallest houses in Europe and some of the smallest in the world - China, Hong Kong and few other places beat us in that regard. Even with falling family sizes, most houses are unfit for purpose with little storage space and even manouverable indoor space to move furniture through corridors and doors.

We cannot be complacent about the rise of parties such as this. People complain that society was too complacent towards the far-right pre-WW2. Will we learn from the past? Time will tell…

The old chestnut that we'll have a new authoritarian state just because a hard right party got elected is always thrown about. Did it happen in Italy and in the US now? Barely. The conception of what is left and centre and right is changing - everything is shifting right and to me, far right is authoritarianism, concentration camps, genocide and racial supremacy ideas. Anything less than that isn't far right to me.

 

[Three-Nine]

I have to admit, I am utterly amazed that the "average person" doesn't know more about the world. It mystifies me, because I have only ever associated with people who have knowledge of world events. And I don't even sit down and watch the news on TV: I generally get my information from sources like the BBC website, the Guardian and Independent websites, and news bulletins on radio, as well as... erm... internet forums like this one.

Someone I know once saw a news article online stating that Japan had banned Islamic worship, and wanted to know why the UK couldn’t do the same. I was a bit surprised, because by that point I’d been to Japan several times, kept up with Japanese news headlines and was reasonably familiar at least on a surface level with Japanese culture and had never heard of such a ban (while its true Japan did once have a rather… aggressive attitude towards other religions, that was at least a couple hundred years ago).

It took me less than 30 seconds of online checking to prove that no such ban exists in Japan, and the person still didn’t believe me…

 

[styles]

It took me less than 30 seconds of online checking to prove that no such ban exists in Japan, and the person still didn’t believe me…

I find this bizarre really. I was talking with someone recently about the Red Bull I was drinking, and they mentioned the law against selling energy drinks to under 18s. I tried to explain that there is no such law, but the larger supermarket chains have decided to restrict sales voluntarily. They didn't believe me so I found a gov.uk document from 8 months ago saying there's currently no minimum age, and they still didn't believe me, and said the document must be old.

Had the same thing a year or so ago about someone vaping in the office and someone else complained saying it's against the law. It's not, and we didn't even have a company policy against it (naively assuming people would have the common courtesy to vape outside or at least indoors away from people).

I'm not sure where this comes from - the idea that everything is against the law. But it seems quite prevalent for people to believe certain laws exist when they don't.

 

[takno]

I find this bizarre really. I was talking with someone recently about the Red Bull I was drinking, and they mentioned the law against selling energy drinks to under 18s. I tried to explain that there is no such law, but the larger supermarket chains have decided to restrict sales voluntarily. They didn't believe me so I found a gov.uk document from 8 months ago saying there's currently no minimum age, and they still didn't believe me, and said the document must be old.

Had the same thing a year or so ago about someone vaping in the office and someone else complained saying it's against the law. It's not, and we didn't even have a company policy against it (naively assuming people would have the common courtesy to vape outside or at least indoors away from people).

I'm not sure where this comes from - the idea that everything is against the law. But it seems quite prevalent for people to believe certain laws exist when they don't.

I think so many places have just extended their smoking ban to cover vapes that people just assume that the law has been extended to cover them as well.

Again with the Red Bull thing, if all the supermarkets you go in have banned it then you'd fairly naturally assume it was against the law - I mean why would supermarkets do themselves out of trade. Other things in that area include only being able to buy 2 boxes of ibuprofen. Poundland will sell you 3 on a 3-for offer, and aren't breaking the law.

 

[Three-Nine]

Some people are just immune to information (either deliberately or just through sheer dedication to their views). I’m sure we could all provide examples from international politics just now, but there are other threads to discuss the candidates you’re probably thinking of…

 

[nw1]

Did it happen in Italy and in the US now? Barely.

In the US it is happening, as can be seen by deportation orders for attendees of pro-Palestine rallies (e.g. https://www.newsweek.com/trump-order-deport-pro-palestinian-protesters-explained-2023375)

 

[AlterEgo]

They need to be skilled and productive and come and go on rotation, not masses of cheap unskilled labour that stays here and adds tiny amounts of productivity.

That would be ideal, but who is going to look after the elderly, for example?

Without exaggerating, this country is probably heading the way of the Netherlands with small towns and villages near to one another with less stretches of countryside in between them.

No it isn’t. The Netherlands is insanely dense and especially so because it is very very flat. It’s twice as dense as the UK. Here, density really needs to be added vertically as opposed to outward expansion, which keeps people near amenities, transport hubs, and healthcare.

The old chestnut that we'll have a new authoritarian state just because a hard right party got elected is always thrown about.

The UK is a fairly authoritarian state; Labour are much more so than the Tories were.

Did it happen in Italy and in the US now? Barely.

Yes, it did happen in the United States. They’re talking about suspending habeas corpus for goodness’ sake.

 

[The Ham]

The UK has some of the smallest houses in Europe and some of the smallest in the world - China, Hong Kong and few other places beat us in that regard. Even with falling family sizes, most houses are unfit for purpose with little storage space and even manouverable indoor space to move furniture through corridors and doors.

Depends on when you look at the government data, in 1990 the average house area was 84m2, in the 2018/19 data had it at 94m2. It should be noted that a lot of comparison tables and articles had it at a lower level than the 1990 number!!!

This is in a par with the average of 91m2 for France (2006).

Yes places like Denmark (118m2) and Sweden (122m2) are much bigger, but many countries in the EU aren't too dissimilar.

 

[Purple Train]

The UK is a fairly authoritarian state; Labour are much more so than the Tories were.

On balance I agree with much of what you post, but this is hyperbole. Labour aren't much less authoritarian than the Tories were, but they're definitely not more so. They're certainly far too right-wing at present and I wish to goodness Starmer had the backbone to stand up to his unelected "Blue Labour" advisors and tell them to [verb of choice] to another party. But much more authoritarian than the Tories? Admittedly speaking as someone who's far less libertarian than average for this forum, I wish I couldn't remember quite how atrocious the Tory government was.

 

[alex397]

The old chestnut that we'll have a new authoritarian state just because a hard right party got elected is always thrown about. Did it happen in Italy and in the US now? Barely. The conception of what is left and centre and right is changing - everything is shifting right and to me, far right is authoritarianism, concentration camps, genocide and racial supremacy ideas. Anything less than that isn't far right to me.

I haven’t said Reform would definitely turn out that way, but it’s still something that we should keep an eye on. Farage’s connections with the AfD and Trump aswell as his comments about Putin is surely a concern.
As is often said, it didn’t start with the concentration camps.

 

[Purple Train]

I haven’t said Reform would definitely turn out that way, but it’s still something that we should keep an eye on. Farage’s connections with the AfD and Trump as well as his comments about Putin is surely a concern.
As is often said, it didn’t start with the concentration camps.

Salient point, well made.

 

[AlterEgo]

On balance I agree with much of what you post, but this is hyperbole. Labour aren't much less authoritarian than the Tories were, but they're definitely not more so. They're certainly far too right-wing at present and I wish to goodness Starmer had the backbone to stand up to his unelected "Blue Labour" advisors and tell them to [verb of choice] to another party. But much more authoritarian than the Tories? Admittedly speaking as someone who's far less libertarian than average for this forum, I wish I couldn't remember quite how atrocious the Tory government was.

If Labour are less authoritarian than the Tories, which of the laws surrounding restricting protest and civil liberties passed by the Tory government is being rescinded by the current government? Labour is defending them, and expanding their use; they are a deeply centralising power to be viewed with more suspicion on their authoritarian streak than the Tories even were.

 

[nw1]

I see Kent County Council have removed the Ukraine flag:

MSN

Did they really have to do that? Why are overseas flags so offensive to them? Unless a council is flying the flag of a dictatorship, there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[RT4038]

I see Kent County Council have removed the Ukraine flag:

MSN

Did they really have to do that? Why are overseas flags so offensive to them? Unless a council is flying the flag of a dictatorship, there shouldn't be a problem.

Ah ... the Israeli flag then?

Far better for UK Council administrative buildings to fly the UK flag, those of the Ukraine to fly the Ukrainian flag, and those of Burkina Faso to fly their flag. Helps people to know which country they are in....

 

[dangie]

Did they really have to do that? Why are overseas flags so offensive to them? Unless a council is flying the flag of a dictatorship, there shouldn't be a problem.

From the link provided:
When asked about the reasoning behind the plan to remove the Ukrainian flag, a Reform UK spokesperson said while the party has repeatedly ‘condemned the barbaric and evil’ invasion of Ukraine by Russia, it does not consider it ‘appropriate’ to fly any foreign flags above public buildings. This means Reform-led councils plan to only fly the Union Flag, St George’s Cross and county flag.

Not really sure which lines you read between to get ‘offensive’ but personally I don’t see Reform have actually done anything wrong here. Having said this, there are many who will find it offensive to fly the Union Flag, St George’s Cross and County Flag. This is a case of damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Reform probably can’t win here

and no…. I am not a Reform supporter.

 

[takno]

From the link provided:
When asked about the reasoning behind the plan to remove the Ukrainian flag, a Reform UK spokesperson said while the party has repeatedly ‘condemned the barbaric and evil’ invasion of Ukraine by Russia, it does not consider it ‘appropriate’ to fly any foreign flags above public buildings. This means Reform-led councils plan to only fly the Union Flag, St George’s Cross and county flag.

Not really sure which lines you read between to get ‘offensive’ but personally I don’t see Reform have actually done anything wrong here. Having said this, there are many who will find it offensive to fly the Union Flag, St George’s Cross and County Flag. This is a case of damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Reform probably can’t win here

and no…. I am not a Reform supporter.

I'd say there's nothing wrong with having flagpoles that only fly the county flag.

Flying a George Cross or Union jack on a council building feels a bit weird and arbitrary to me though. Nothing wrong with it in either case on appropriate days, but doing it and then refusing to fly a flag in support of an ally or a flag supporting global inclusiveness seems like it's making a strong statement.

 

[bleeder4]

I see Kent County Council have removed the Ukraine flag:

MSN

Did they really have to do that? Why are overseas flags so offensive to them? Unless a council is flying the flag of a dictatorship, there shouldn't be a problem.

Depends whether Kent has a significant Ukrainian population or not. A council exists for one purpose only - to serve the needs of its local taxpayers. If the local community doesn't include Ukrainian taxpayers then pointless flying the flag. However, if it does, then by all means fly the flag.

 

[DarloRich]

The old chestnut that we'll have a new authoritarian state just because a hard right party got elected is always thrown about. Did it happen in Italy and in the US now? Barely. The conception of what is left and centre and right is changing -

you have, I am sure, noticed there are suggestions from Trump that he will suspend habeas corpus. I am sure you know what that means but I will spell it out for people that dont:

Habeas corpus is the legal principle that a person should be able to challenge their detention in court. Essentially that means you cant be simply thrown in prison and locked away for ever. Removing that seems fairly authoritarian for me but, using your definition, I am sure it is ok because they aren't carting people off to concentration camps!

If you cant see how bonkers this is you are lost. It forms article 1 of the US constitution ffs!

It is all fine and good fun bashing the traitors, Marxist revolutionaries, forigns and wrong uns - until you are one ( and you will be with these people) and they are carting you off to the gulag. Not so much fun then............

far right is authoritarianism, concentration camps, genocide and racial supremacy ideas. Anything less than that isn't far right to me.

A convenient definition that allows you to excuse all manner of sins!

 

[nw1]

From the link provided:
When asked about the reasoning behind the plan to remove the Ukrainian flag, a Reform UK spokesperson said while the party has repeatedly ‘condemned the barbaric and evil’ invasion of Ukraine by Russia, it does not consider it ‘appropriate’ to fly any foreign flags above public buildings. This means Reform-led councils plan to only fly the Union Flag, St George’s Cross and county flag.

Not really sure which lines you read between to get ‘offensive’ but personally I don’t see Reform have actually done anything wrong here. Having said this, there are many who will find it offensive to fly the Union Flag, St George’s Cross and County Flag. This is a case of damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Reform probably can’t win here

and no…. I am not a Reform supporter.

Well they are making a big thing about this flag policy, and that is wrong.

The other parties including, self-evidently, the Tories aren't making a song and dance about other flags. So why are Reform getting so het-up about it?

 

[Railwaycat]

Well they are making a big thing about this flag policy, and that is wrong.

The other parties including, self-evidently, the Tories aren't making a song and dance about other flags. So why are Reform getting so het-up about it?

I think that only the county flag (do all counties have one?) should be flown outside council offices, then nobody can make an issue of flag flying.

 

[Gloster]

Well they are making a big thing about this flag policy, and that is wrong.

The other parties including, self-evidently, the Tories aren't making a song and dance about other flags. So why are Reform getting so het-up about it?

Because it is just about the only local policy that they have in any detail.

 

[alex397]

From the link provided:
When asked about the reasoning behind the plan to remove the Ukrainian flag, a Reform UK spokesperson said while the party has repeatedly ‘condemned the barbaric and evil’ invasion of Ukraine by Russia, it does not consider it ‘appropriate’ to fly any foreign flags above public buildings. This means Reform-led councils plan to only fly the Union Flag, St George’s Cross and county flag.

Not really sure which lines you read between to get ‘offensive’ but personally I don’t see Reform have actually done anything wrong here. Having said this, there are many who will find it offensive to fly the Union Flag, St George’s Cross and County Flag. This is a case of damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Reform probably can’t win here

and no…. I am not a Reform supporter.

It’s not just the removal of the flag though… it’s all the song and dance that has gone along with it. Why didn’t they just remove it quietly without making a big statement about it to the media? Obviously they are more interested in culture wars and creating division than sorting out more pressing local issues.

 

[The Ham]

I think that only the county flag (do all counties have one?) should be flown outside council offices, then nobody can make an issue of flag flying.

I've found the real reason why Reform are so opposed to "other flags" being flown:

Hart District Council supporting campaign for healthy relationships | Safer North Hampshire

www.safernh.co.uk

Spoiler

link to an article where a council was flying a flag to raise awareness on how to spot the signs of an unhealthy relationship - implying they might be behaving in similar ways, for example telling you you should only listen to certain news organisations and they you should care about immigration.

Joking aside some red flags that your relationship could be unhealthy are, if the other person:

Makes you feel bad about yourself.
Ridicules you and calls you names.
Tells you how to dress, think and feel.
Controls who you talk to.
Checks your texts, emails and social media.
Will not compromise.
Threatens, hits or physically hurts you.

 

[sor]

I don't think this one's been posted in the thread - there are too many to keep track of:

New Reform UK councillor quits two weeks after election

Wayne Titley was one of 49 Reform candidates elected at the beginning of the month in Staffordshire.

www.bbc.co.uk

A new Staffordshire County councillor has stepped down, just two weeks after being elected.
Wayne Titley won the Eccleshall and Gnosall division for Reform UK, beating the Conservative Jeremy Pert by just 27 votes.
However, he attracted criticism for a post on his Facebook account in March that called on the navy to intercept small boats attempting to reach Britain and use a "volley of gun fire aimed at sinking them".
Neither the party nor Mr Titley have addressed that post, which has since been removed, but he said he was resigning for "personal reasons". Reform said it was disappointing to see the level of abuse he had faced, which meant he could no longer continue.

I assume the "abuse" centres on people pulling up his old posts and demanding to know if this is appropriate for a (formerly) elected official or if his views are in line with Reform policy.

It can't be long before all these newbies resign and Reform have erased all their gains. There is that one recently elected "independent" who defected to Reform so they're slightly up!