Life expectancy of Chinese vs British-built buses & coaches

[dmncf]

I feel a bit disappointed when I see operators buying Chinese-built buses & coaches, due to a concern I have that buses & coaches may be becoming more disposable; an unevidenced stereotype that Chinese-built vehicles may not be 'built to last' or designed to be repaired.

Does experience support my concern that Chinese-built buses & coaches will have a shorter life than British-built buses & coaches? Is there really any difference compared with ADL or Wrightbus products?

I guess it would be simplest to draw conclusions based on diesel vehicles such as the Yutong TC9 coach, or the Yutong GT12 coach that's popular with Flixbus contractors. Drawing conclusions from electric vehicles would be difficult because their life expectancy is impacted by developments in battery technology.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I feel a bit disappointed when I see operators buying Chinese-built buses & coaches, due to a concern I have that buses & coaches may be becoming more disposable; an unevidenced stereotype that Chinese-built vehicles may not be 'built to last' or designed to be repaired.

Does experience support my concern that Chinese-built buses & coaches will have a shorter life than British-built buses & coaches? Is there really any difference compared with ADL or Wrightbus products?

I guess it would be simplest to draw conclusions based on diesel vehicles such as the Yutong TC9 coach, or the Yutong GT12 coach that's popular with Flixbus contractors. Drawing conclusions from electric vehicles would be difficult because their life expectancy is impacted by developments in battery technology.

Well, there's been a long record of British built vehicles not lasting...the most celebrated example being the Guy Wulfrunian that effectively broke the company.

Remember that in the late 1970s, foreign manufacturers were able to enter the UK market because the main supplier was Leyland and they a) were not listening to their customers and b) were unable to meet delivery schedules because of industrial relations issues. As a result, foreign firms came in and were able to show that their products were actually better built and technologically more advanced. Of course, there have been foreign designs that never took off (Temsa Avenue buses suffered with a perceived lack of support and service) or simply weren't as good as hoped for (see Optare Vecta/MAN 11.180) but no worse than domestic failures.

From a friend of mine who has driven Yutong EV buses, their opinion is that the product is great to drive and much better than ADL and Optare, and ahead of Wright. They have also spoken to their maintenance teams who also believe that the Yutongs are actually very well constructed.

 

[GusB]

I feel a bit disappointed when I see operators buying Chinese-built buses & coaches, due to a concern I have that buses & coaches may be becoming more disposable; an unevidenced stereotype that Chinese-built vehicles may not be 'built to last' or designed to be repaired.

I think we need to get away from the idea that if something is Chinese-built, it's cheap and nasty. If this was the case, no operator would be going back for repeat orders. If they weren't designed to be repaired, nobody would be buying them!

Does experience support my concern that Chinese-built buses & coaches will have a shorter life than British-built buses & coaches? Is there really any difference compared with ADL or Wrightbus products?

I have only had one trip on an an electric coach, a brand new Yutong TCe12, but my impression was that the build quality wasn't any better or worse than the 2017 Plaxton Elite coach I travelled on later that day.

I guess it would be simplest to draw conclusions based on diesel vehicles such as the Yutong TC9 coach, or the Yutong GT12 coach that's popular with Flixbus contractors. Drawing conclusions from electric vehicles would be difficult because their life expectancy is impacted by developments in battery technology.

Life expectancy of diesel vehicles can also be limited if you consider the impact of low- and zero-emission zones; vehicles that may otherwise be serviceable are suddenly no good for the job for which they were intended, unless you can convert them to a higher standard or repower them. Accessibility regulations have a similar impact.

As far as the running gear is concerned, Yutong uses engines (Cummins/DAF) and transmissions (ZF) that you'd find in European products.

You can have the most robust vehicle in the world but if you don't maintain it properly it will fall to bits much quicker than one that gets regular care.

 

[mattb7tl]

China is far ahead with electric vehicles. As the country became richer instead of jumping on combustion vehicles which they knew they couldn't compete with on quality a huge focus was placed on electrics and that focus was placed extremely early on. (Shenzhen has been fully electric since 2017) China's electrics are cheap because they have done it for longer and the businesses are more built up and benefit from economies of scale. Yutong alone has made 47,000 buses in 2024. Don't even think our manufacturers make that combined across a few years.

 

[Robertj21a]

I think the general view is that Yutongs are proving to be some of the best buses currently available, with over 2.000 now delivered. Most Operators, mechanics and drivers seem to be very happy with them.

 

[dmncf]

Of course, there have been foreign designs that never took off (Temsa Avenue buses suffered with a perceived lack of support and service) or simply weren't as good as hoped for (see Optare Vecta/MAN 11.180) but no worse than domestic failures.

I think that in the early years of a foreign manufacturer entering the UK, the buyer runs the risk of the manufacturer not becoming established, e.g. failing to sell enough volume, or failing to establish proper support. There may have been Chinese examples of this - please correct me if I'm wrong - such as King Long who have been in the UK a long time but I perceive as never having sold enough volume.
It's interesting that Yutong have - in my opinion - now become established in the UK and that risk to buyers has now diminished. I guess that BYD hope to be in the same position in perhaps 5 years' time.

 

[DaveLondon]

I think that in the early years of a foreign manufacturer entering the UK, the buyer runs the risk of the manufacturer not becoming established, e.g. failing to sell enough volume, or failing to establish proper support. There may have been Chinese examples of this - please correct me if I'm wrong - such as King Long who have been in the UK a long time but I perceive as never having sold enough volume.
It's interesting that Yutong have - in my opinion - now become established in the UK and that risk to buyers has now diminished. I guess that BYD hope to be in the same position in perhaps 5 years' time.

King Long pulled out of the UK some time ago and only sold in penny numbers to small independent operators. The UK subsidiary went into liquidation a couple of years back. BYD has, I think, outsokd Yutong in the UK articularly with the previous partnership with Alexander Dennis. Huge numbers of the new all BYD product are on order for various London opertors and are seen by operators as a high quality, technically advanced product.

Yutong is making great strides in the coach market and currently offers the only electric coach which has sold to a number of operators.

Higer (Chinese) bodywork is available on Scania coach chassis and briefly had other UK offerings.

Temsa (Turkish) is now very well established in the coach market.

It is sad that UK manufacturers still have quality issues.

 

[dmncf]

As far as the running gear is concerned, Yutong uses engines (Cummins/DAF) and transmissions (ZF) that you'd find in European products.

Do Yutong deliberately build their European market products using engines and other parts that are familiar to European buyers, whereas if you bought equivalent Yutong products in Asia they would have engines and other parts that would unfamiliar to European buyers? Or are bus engines and other parts fairly 'global' rather than 'regional' anyway?

 

[GusB]

Do Yutong deliberately build their European market products using engines and other parts that are familiar to European buyers, whereas if you bought equivalent Yutong products in Asia they would have engines and other parts that would unfamiliar to European buyers? Or are bus engines and other parts fairly 'global' rather than 'regional' anyway?

I honestly don't know what they offer in other parts of the world. I only looked as far as the Pelican website for information.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

Do Yutong deliberately build their European market products using engines and other parts that are familiar to European buyers, whereas if you bought equivalent Yutong products in Asia they would have engines and other parts that would unfamiliar to European buyers? Or are bus engines and other parts fairly 'global' rather than 'regional' anyway?

A lot of the major components (engines & gearboxes) are fairly global these days, there may be some chinese suppliers of these for the home market which won't have been offered in unfamiliar markets if there are suitable options from more familiar suppliers for that market. The less common thing Yutong have done via Pelican is offering more European other components around internal fit out (seats, CCTV, destination blinds etc) which has been done by allowing Pelican to do the finishing off rather than have a completely fitted out bus coming out of China. This helps buyers feel more comfortable that they will be familiar with the basic operating experience of the vehicle they are buying.

It's interesting that Yutong have - in my opinion - now become established in the UK and that risk to buyers has now diminished. I guess that BYD hope to be in the same position in perhaps 5 years' time.

Having a long established UK importer has helped, Pelican have been going for decades (mostly in trucks but they are well established) helps smooth some of those concerns around having long term support though those sort of concerns more generally apply to smaller operators and coach buyers. Large fleet bus buyers, such as that which BYD are attracting initially as a stand alone, order in big enough quantities that long term support can be easier to maintain even if the manufacturer stops selling in the market. If you have a fleet of 50 vehicles there is volume to justify parts importing and a support infrastructure. It also helps that the old ADL partnership means there was a responsible partner, in ADL, with a stronger UK presence if things went wrong.

 

[Trainman40083]

I note that the 21 Yutong single deckers due for Kinchbus Loughborough, will have cantilever seats...Presume this has not been specified by existing operators... I really should have checked when I rode on one of the Nottingham green ones.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I note that the 21 Yutong single deckers due for Kinchbus Loughborough, will have cantilever seats...Presume this has not been specified by existing operators... I really should have checked when I rode on one of the Nottingham green ones.

i believe the NCT ones have cantilever seats - easier cleaning and no poles to go rusty where they meet the floor.

 

[MCR247]

I note that the 21 Yutong single deckers due for Kinchbus Loughborough, will have cantilever seats...Presume this has not been specified by existing operators... I really should have checked when I rode on one of the Nottingham green ones.

NCT also have these

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

From what I can gather the Yutongs in particular are well built and reliable buses at a competitive price. I read an article on Cardiff buses recently where they stated that in three years of operation they have never had to tow one in, compared to various articles about British built electrics having remedial work etc.
As for longevity I don't think anyone knows how long batteries etc. will last in any of the electrics, Chinese or otherwise, but as for general build quality there doesn't seem to be an issue.