How could GC/LNER services to Bradford be improved?

[LCRTrainfan979]

Moderator note: split from

Grand Central Track Access Extension

Seems the GC have had there track access extended till 2038. I believe this means a new order we be looked at to replace the 180s. 1743200131 https://www.railmagazine.com/news/2025/03/27/grand-central-s-secures-track-access-to-bradford-and-sunderland-until-2038 Grand Central’s request to extend...

www.railforums.co.uk

Well I'll be interested to see how their Bradford service performs once LNER ramps up service to Foster Square, we'll get to see how many people in Bradford will stick with GC and how much their other stops in West Yorkshire support the service financially.

Good riddance to them!

I have just looked at Realtime trains. As of May 2025, the times of trains from King's Cross to Bradford (FS for Forster Square, I for Interchange) are going to be roughly:
- 0703 FS
- 0903 FS
- 1057 I
- 11:03 FS
- 13:03 FS
- 1456 I
- 1503 FS
- 1627 I
- 1633 FS
- 1833 FS
- 1948 I

So generally looking at that, three out of the four Grand Central trains are only a few minutes before an alternative LNER service. Whilst Grand Central will always be useful for going to either Pontefract Monkhill on the two of the four trains, or to Halifax on all of them, their biggest destination is Bradford Interchange, only a few minutes away from Forster Square with a more regular service to London. Otherwise however, three of the four service are simply duplications which have the potential to abstract revenue off LNER's new expanded service. And unfortuanetly, with the nature of open access operators, they can't easily retime their service to different hours (E.G, the Grand Central service could mainly operate on the hour of even-numbered hours, with LNER doing the odd-numbered hours).

Consequently, that could just be reason for the DfT to attempt a break clause to get rid of Grand Central's Bradford service eventually, since their main purpose of serving underserved cities no longer applies with Bradford, and they are abstracting revenue, which Open Access Operators are absolutely not supposed to be allowed to do, and Heidi Alexander is said to be not very keen on open access operators given they take up train paths that the main operators (in this case LNER) could potentially use for some other service eventually.

Obviously, this wouldn't be the end of Grand Central, their main purpose still adequately survives with their Sunderland services, because there, they do have a monopoly of London services there. In many ways, there is even a case where if they were to lose their Bradford service (either their paths were stripped, or a decline in usage made them financially unviable for them), it might be a good idea if they could attempt to increase their Sunderland service, given LNER don't seem interested in serving Sunderland anymore, maybe eventually aiming for a roughly two-hourly service from there.

 

[Bradford1]

Grand central have just been awarded rights till 2038 and they have plans to couple their Bradford train to their Cleethorpes train.

Sadly, with LNER, I would not be surprised if they drop their Bradford extension services in favour of Harrogate

 

[skyhigh]

Sadly, with LNER, I would not be surprised if they drop their Bradford extension services in favour of Harrogate

Having just had a new platform built at Bradford solely to support the extended frequency?

 

[Bradford1]

The extra platform funding bid was linked to City of Culture 2025 and I imagine LNER 7 trains is also to do with that.

I don't know in the long term if LNER will carry on with 7 to Bradford. Demand from/to Bradford has always been quiet. In 2021, LNER wanted to cut Bradford from 2 to 1.

 

[357]

their biggest destination is Bradford Interchange,

This is not true.

with a more regular service to London

Frequency is not the only thing people look at - if it was, nobody would get on at Doncaster or York.

Otherwise however, three of the four service are simply duplications which have the potential to abstract revenue off LNER's new expanded service.

Legally, LNER would be the ones duplicating and abstracting revenue from Grand Central.

Consequently, that could just be reason for the DfT to attempt a break clause to get rid of Grand Central's Bradford service eventually

What on earth are you talking about...?

since their main purpose of serving underserved cities no longer applies with Bradford

What about all the other stations served? Why do so many people only look at end to end services and not intermediate stations. Ignoring last Friday, how many people do you think stay on 1V60 from Aberdeen to Penzance?

and they are abstracting revenue, which Open Access Operators are absolutely not supposed to be allowed to do

Again, you can not abstract future revenue - only existing revenue. When GC started operating to Bradford (fifteen years ago), they made a market for themselves and have a customer base from all stations along the route.

and Heidi Alexander is said to be not very keen on open access operators

Fortunately personal opinions have no basis in law, and we do not live in a dictatorship.

given they take up train paths that the main operators (in this case LNER) could potentially use for some other service

LNER could have applied for the paths using the laid out legal process if they so wished, considering they have only just been renewed. You say in your own post that LNER are not interested in serving some destinations, so what do you think they want to use these paths for?

eventually

So you want to cut railway capacity on the basis that a TOC that has cut multiple destinations over the last few years might possibly sometime find a use for them? What will you say to the people of Halifax, Brighouse, Mirfield etc who will no longer have a direct service to London? Christ, even Kirkgate and Pontefract have been remarkably busy lately!

 

[Johnny Lewis]

If anyone is travelling to or from Bradford FS on one of the newly introduced services this week, it'd be interesting to get some passenger counts, especially on the ones that aren't, as yet, calling at Shipley.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Frequency is not the only thing people look at - if it was, nobody would get on at Doncaster or York.

Agree, price is a big factor. GC tickets tend to be slightly cheaper than LNER from York/Doncaster to London, especially if booked on the day of travel, making GC an attractive option for those traveling to/from stations LNER serves more frequently.

 

[A S Leib]

From the December timetable change, weekday northbound departure and arrival times were scheduled to be (before the published timetable was withdrawn for final changes)

07:39-10:21 LNER
09:40-12:21 LNER
11:17-14:23 GC
11:40-14:21 LNER
13:17-16:23 GC
13:40-16:21 LNER
15:30-18:21 LNER
16:25-19:35 GC
17:39-20:24 LNER
19:40-22:26 LNER
20:00-22:45 GC

So if just going from King's Cross to Bradford without any more specific plans, for two of the Grand Central services it's quicker to wait for the next LNER service and one isnt overtaken by being the last Bradford service of the day.

 

[Bradford1]

Looking at prices tomorrow, Grand Central London to Bradford is £32, LNER four minutes late is £93 with split ticket

 

[A S Leib]

Looking at prices tomorrow, Grand Central London to Bradford is £32, LNER four minutes late is £93 with split ticket

£114 for an off-peak return for Grand Central (although flexibility when that means 3-4 trains per day isn't as attractive as it is on a route with 2 tph including connections) or £152 for super off-peak singles.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Just to clarify, with that big comment is what I speculate could end up happening with Grand Central. Of course, if it was up to me, I wouldn't want Grand Central to stop running Bradford trains anytime soon. For the passenger, it provides more choice, and it offers cheaper fares, which is why operators like Lumo now exist to compete with LNER on what is already an immensely busy route (London to Edinburgh) which probably needed more trains on anyway. I am just saying it because from a business and financial perspective, they no longer have the same advantage as they previously had when Bradford was underserved with ~2 trains from Forster Square.

With that point with Heidi Alexander, I would point towards https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/677bc388d119b345376654a4/dft-letter-sos-orr.pdf. It does generally show that Heidi Alexander doesn't seem to be all for Open Access Operators in every situation, although she does very clearly accept them in some but not all cases. That's one reason why there's so many ideas, including many from Grand Central that end up going nowhere for one reason, such as the government wanting the paths instead, or the potential for revenue abstraction from contracted operators.

This is not true.

Well on the entire Grand Central Network, of course, Bradford Interchange is not like their overwhelming principal destination. However, on that kind of route, Bradford is essentially the main destination.

What about all the other stations served? Why do so many people only look at end to end services and not intermediate stations. Ignoring last Friday, how many people do you think stay on 1V60 from Aberdeen to Penzance?

Bradford is the main destination on that kind of service, and the reason the service was created was to serve Bradford, a large but underserved city in West Yorkshire, more frequently from London. And with that kind of intercity service, that is a case where you can expect many to stay on the whole way through. Obviously, it does serve other underserved places, most notably Halifax and to a lesser extent Pontefract, and even Wakefield Kirkgate, although nearby Westgate still has more frequent and probably quicker trains.

Obviously, now thinking about other examples, I could be wrong, but that is just my opinion on what could end up happening to Grand Central on that particular route of theirs, but only under specific circumstances where LNER may end up doing quite well at trying to win back passengers they lost years ago to Grand Central (I.E. Passengers who would have got GNER (back then) into Leeds, and then changed onto a Northern train into either Interchange or Forster Square, whichever came first), in which case it is basic fact that Grand Central Bradford passengers decline, and as they take on full commercial risk (unlike with LNER), they have no option but to remove, truncate or reduce the service.

Nevertheless, Grand Central is obviously still beloved by many passengers, and if overall passengers can be boosted on all Bradford services, particularly if the City of Culture can do some long term good for the city and its attractiveness, then Grand Central should be fine for the forseeable future.

 

[357]

I am just saying it because from a business and financial perspective, they no longer have the same advantage as they previously had when Bradford was underserved with ~2 trains from Forster Square.

I don't think it will be too much of an issue, the journey time from Interchange is faster via Leeds and changing anyway even without the Forster Square services.

And with that kind of intercity service, that is a case where you can expect many to stay on the whole way through.

I've already told you they don't, but what do I know? I've only traveled on the GC West Riding service 150 times in the last 12 months.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

I've already told you they don't, but what do I know? I've only traveled on the GC West Riding service 150 times in the last 12 months.

That is a case of direct comparison to many other long intercity services such as Aberdeen to Penzance, where the only people who would ever have stayed on the whole way through is generally rail enthusiasts, and basically no one else on a regular basis. That same case will apply to many other crosscountry services as well. However, I can imagine on that kind of route, whilst of course the majority of passengers will alight earlier, there will be a decent minority who will stay on the whole way to Bradford Interchange, at least compared to other routes.

I do totally take back the comment of Bradford Interchange being the main destination for average passengers though after checking railway data however.

 

[Palmerston]

From the December timetable change, weekday northbound departure and arrival times were scheduled to be (before the published timetable was withdrawn for final changes)

07:39-10:21 LNER
09:40-12:21 LNER
11:17-14:23 GC
11:40-14:21 LNER
13:17-16:23 GC
13:40-16:21 LNER
15:30-18:21 LNER
16:25-19:35 GC
17:39-20:24 LNER
19:40-22:26 LNER
20:00-22:45 GC

So if just going from King's Cross to Bradford without any more specific plans, for two of the Grand Central services it's quicker to wait for the next LNER service and one isnt overtaken by being the last Bradford service of the day.

Please forgive my ignorance, but why are the LNER services so much quicker?

 

[ainsworth74]

Please forgive my ignorance, but why are the LNER services so much quicker?

They go direct from Doncaster to Leeds via Wakefield Westgate which has reasonably high linespeeds before reversing and going straight down the Aire Valley via Shipley. Grand Central turn off a bit furtehr north of Doncaster at Shaftholme Junction, go meandering towards Knottingley and Pontefract before hitting Wakefield Kirkgate then over to Healy Mills, Mirfield and Halifax before heading into Bradford Interchange. It's a lot slower. Some GCs do go a more direct route avoiding Pontefract but even they turn off south of Wakefield to hit Kirkgate and then meander from there to Bradford Interchange.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Please forgive my ignorance, but why are the LNER services so much quicker?

I suspect one reason is the routes which the run over, which are generally mainlines always intended for London trains, and being the principal routes.

For example, the Bradford Forster Square LNER service is an extension of the London to Leeds service, which is itself the principal city in West Yorkshire, which consequenty gets more investment, which included increasing their line speeds and capacity

The lines that Grand Central run over however are much more secondary routes. The lines leading into Bradford Interchange would have been designed in the 19th century for local services, such as to Leeds, Blackburn, Manchester, Huddersfield, etc. Forster Square is also not much better, as that would have been designed for local services, mainly to places like Ilkley, Skipton, Leeds, and maybe a few to Carlisle (even though they obviously go to Leeds now). Consequently, given they are not principal main lines, they just haven't got as much investment to improve their speeds and capacity.

On top of that, it obviously doesn't help matters that Bradford never got its own mainline to London, which is why for London services, it has long has to rely either on extensions of services to Leeds with LNER, or on relatively awkward and slower secondary lines with Grand Central.

So in a nutshell, its because of Railway Geography and where the money has been invested over the years. Maybe if this idea of a new through station in Bradford comes to anything, maybe they could fit some London services on that. Otherwise for the forseeable future, Bradford is stuck as that big city next to Leeds which got left behind in the 19th century.

 

[Zomboid]

I'm sure that Bradford is a decent earner for GC, but they serve a bunch of other places in West (?) Yorkshire too, most of which don't have a direct ECML train. Do they stop south of Doncaster on the ECML, and would that compete with the LNERs?

I suspect that GC have grown the Bradford to London rail market, and if LNER come along and want a slice of that then fair enough - the ICEC operator has faced competition from open access for years, and I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to try to compete back.

 

[A S Leib]

Do they stop south of Doncaster on the ECML, and would that compete with the LNERs?

I think it's currently limited to 1 tpd in each direction calling at Peterborough on both the Bradford (and Sunderland, south of York) routes.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

I'm sure that Bradford is a decent earner for GC, but they serve a bunch of other places in West (?) Yorkshire too, most of which don't have a direct ECML train. Do they stop south of Doncaster on the ECML, and would that compete with the LNERs?

To answer that latter question, can Grand Central compete south of Doncaster with their current rules calling on the southern section of the ECML, and that answer is a plain and simple NO.

Generally, the further south you go, the more services LNER operate (when you consider its a trunk section, and by the time you reach Peterborough, there are more options such as Thameslink and Great Northern, so calling 2 trains per day isn't going to compete with anyone at Peterborough. Other stations would be too complex to get the right to call, and even if they did, they might end up having to be pick up/set down only if they could get any rights, which is basically what Lumo ended up with at Stevenage.

 

[YorkRailFan]

so calling 2 trains per day isn't going to compete with anyone at Peterborough

I really doubt that GC's stopping pattern is trying to attract Peterborough-London passengers. More so, its trying to attract people coming off Sunderland, Hartlepool and West Yorkshire services who would otherwise have to change at Doncaster.

 

[Halish Railway]

Some observations about the recently introduced additional Bradford Forster Square to London Kings Cross service and how they may impact the performance of the forthcoming timetable change.

Firstly, LNER really shouldn’t be running 10 carriage Azumas to Bradford. Their length means that they have to pull beyond the signal at the end of platform 3 when travelling towards Leeds, so either they have to be wait outside of the station until the signal is set or the rear carriage hangs off the end of the platform and fouls Shipley South Junction.

Secondly, the platforms at Leeds really need clearly marked zones so passengers know where to stand for their carriage. At LNER managed stations this has been sorted out and there are e-ink displays that clearly say “stand here for coach x for the xx:xx to …”, avoiding the need for passengers to run down the platform as the train arrives, but Leeds really needs this if every other service originates beyond there.

 

[800001]

Some observations about the recently introduced additional Bradford Forster Square to London Kings Cross service and how they may impact the performance of the forthcoming timetable change.

Firstly, LNER really shouldn’t be running 10 carriage Azumas to Bradford. Their length means that they have to pull beyond the signal at the end of platform 3 when travelling towards Leeds, so either they have to be wait outside of the station until the signal is set or the rear carriage hangs off the end of the platform and fouls Shipley South Junction.

Secondly, the platforms at Leeds really need clearly marked zones so passengers know where to stand for their carriage. At LNER managed stations this has been sorted out and there are e-ink displays that clearly say “stand here for coach x for the xx:xx to …”, avoiding the need for passengers to run down the platform as the train arrives, but Leeds really needs this if every other service originates beyond there.

The e-ink is only Doncaster as a trial I believe.

 

[YorksLad12]

Secondly, the platforms at Leeds really need clearly marked zones so passengers know where to stand for their carriage. At LNER managed stations this has been sorted out and there are e-ink displays that clearly say “stand here for coach x for the xx:xx to …”, avoiding the need for passengers to run down the platform as the train arrives, but Leeds really needs this if every other service originates beyond there.

I agree, and disagree. The customer information screens show the carriages, their order and direction. As seasoned travellers, we know that First Class is always* at the front (except when it's in the middle), but platforms 1, 6, 8 and 9 (and possibly others) get used by lots of other services, so you'd have to find a way of making it clear just to LNER passengers, some of whom won't know what an LNER is.

The disagree is my general experience of announcements of TPE trains at Huddersfield. "First class is in Zone 6. Standard Class is in Zones 2, 3, 4 and 5." I see Zone 3 on the platform in from of me; do I turn left or right for First Class? If they'd said "First Class is at the front of the train", I'd know.

 

[skyhigh]

Their length means that they have to pull beyond the signal at the end of platform 3 when travelling towards Leeds, so either they have to be wait outside of the station until the signal is set or the rear carriage hangs off the end of the platform and fouls Shipley South Junction.

Are you sure about that? I have only ever seen the train stop with the rear off, never with the front past the signal. It would be an operational nightmare to have the train stopping in 2 different places depending on day to day factors.

Towards Bradford they stop at the signal too, so in that case the end of the train is off at the Leeds end of the platform. Are you potentially getting mixed up?

 

[Halish Railway]

I agree, and disagree. The customer information screens show the carriages, their order and direction. As seasoned travellers, we know that First Class is always* at the front (except when it's in the middle), but platforms 1, 6, 8 and 9 (and possibly others) get used by lots of other services, so you'd have to find a way of making it clear just to LNER passengers, some of whom won't know what an LNER is.

This is where the virtues of LNER’s e-ink system come in - They display what carriage of what service will stop in that part of the platform for all operators and if the next service on said platform will stop on a different part of the platform.

Are you sure about that? I have only ever seen the train stop with the rear off, never with the front past the signal. It would be an operational nightmare to have the train stopping in 2 different places depending on day to day factors.

Towards Bradford they stop at the signal too, so in that case the end of the train is off at the Leeds end of the platform. Are you potentially getting mixed up?

Oh that may be the case then. I was previously under the impression that ten car services had to be held at the signal between Frizinghall and Shipley until the signal at the end of the platform was cleared so the train could pull up right to the end of the platform. Either way having a train exceeding the length of the platform and fouling a junction isn’t ideal.

 

[Zomboid]

he rear carriage hangs off the end of the platform and fouls Shipley South Junction

Is that a big problem? Does it leave Bradford just before a Skipton train?

 

[Failed Unit]

I suspect that in future timetables if it is, they will either be 9 cars or 225s.

 

[30907]

Is that a big problem? Does it leave Bradford just before a Skipton train?

Looking at this week, the 0843 from Bradford (not a new train as it happens) was consistently 10 cars AND therefore conflicted with a Skipton-Bradford which ISTR has a load of school traffic to Frizinghall.
I can't see any other service with a potential conflict (or with 10 cars for that matter).

 

[Halish Railway]

Looking at this week, the 0843 from Bradford (not a new train as it happens) was consistently 10 cars AND therefore conflicted with a Skipton-Bradford which ISTR has a load of school traffic to Frizinghall.
I can't see any other service with a potential conflict (or with 10 cars for that matter).

I’m pretty sure it’s the working a half hour before hand that carries all the school kids. As you rightly surmise this isn’t too much of an issue, but should 2tph from Bradford to Skipton and Ilkley services be reintroduced throughout the day it could be a cause of a few performance issues.