Jumping Barrier Incident

[norbitonflyer]

Travel safe officers can stop people entering a station but not leaving.

I've seen revenue protection staff physically stop people leaving a platform during a block - even when it was carefully explained to them that their actions were preventing a connection being made.

SWT were always more keen on ensuring you have paid for the service, than providing the service you have paid for.

 

[Peeled Apples]

At Birmingham New Street earlier. Scanned my ticket to go through to catch a train and before I had even moved to go through, this bloke barges through the other way. Taken aback, and after giving him a mouthful for getting in my way, it took me a few seconds to realise what he was doing, when I immediately informed the staff on the barrier, who must have seen it as there was only me, him and another woman there. Nothing we can do, was the response. So there you go, if you want to fare dodge, Birmingham New Street is apparently a free for all.

Saw similar thing at the Navigation street exit a few weeks ago two blokes burst through the barrier and ran off.

 

[sheff1]

We live in a world where the staff are told not to intervene .

Yet these very same staff seem keen to intervene and accuse people with valid tickets of not having one. It sometimes seems I would be better off tailgating someone at a station where I know my ticket will not open the barrier.

Going back to the OP, I once encountered a very polite tailgater at Brighton - as I approached the wide barrier, ticket in hand, he approached from my right so I slowed to let him go first. "No, after you sir" he said so I put my ticket in - only as he came past me on the exit side did I realise his game.

 

[brad465]

Perhaps we should go with one of my past (admittedly joke) suggestions: trap doors each side of the barrier. If someone tries to jump them, a supervising member of staff merely needs to press a button to open the door, the evader falls inside, then the BTP have an easy arrest. No violence involved as the offender is easier to apprehend when they're trapped; if they are still aggressive, then the police just taser them and pull them out after.

 

[185143]

I caused someone to get stuck in the barriers at New Street once when I knew he was about to tailgate me.

Passed through the gates and stopped dead immediately as I'd cleared the sensors, knowing full well he'd then get stuck.

Got sworn at and unsurprisingly my sympathy with him was extremely limited! Sadly the gateline staff had little other option but to free the guy, which I was expecting them to do, but I was disappointed all the same.

 

[satisnek]

I won't let anybody 'tailgate' me and walk through the barrier at a 'measured' speed. A couple of times, however, I've measured it wrong and had the thing close on my hips. It's quite a pinch!

 

[Krokodil]

I once came up to the barriers (in uniform) to go to my next train and one of the alarms was going off. "Left hand side, mate", assuming that he was simply incompetent. I swipe my staff pass and as I go through the barriers I am suddenly aware that someone is right behind me. I stop dead and the barriers close in front of him. "Yeah, you need to stick your ticket in". As my platform was adjacent to the barriers I kept by eye on him for a bit before my train arrived. I love spoiling someone's day like that!

 

[185]

but most just force the barriers open. I never see staff challenge them even

Good. After the barrier staff employee Jorge Ortega murder less than twelve months ago, people should need no reminder that stopping them is a police & railway management matter, and if it's happening on the doorstep of a large BTP station, their inspector and CC should be dragged in to explain the situation.

 

[Deepgreen]

At Birmingham New Street earlier. Scanned my ticket to go through to catch a train and before I had even moved to go through, this bloke barges through the other way. Taken aback, and after giving him a mouthful for getting in my way, it took me a few seconds to realise what he was doing, when I immediately informed the staff on the barrier, who must have seen it as there was only me, him and another woman there. Nothing we can do, was the response. So there you go, if you want to fare dodge, Birmingham New Street is apparently a free for all.

I'm guessing you don't use trains very often, because this sort of thing is extremely common all over the country. Staff are told not to challenge transgressors owing to the risk of violence, so, as with so many things in life, aggressive and selfish behaviour is usually unpunished. Passengers are under no such edict though, and I often challenge them, especially those trying to push through behind me - just stopping dead is effective.

At Fratton, I have watched people climb over a fairly high fence right next to a gaggle of staff members (train crew) and stroll away, presumably to avoid the barriers!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Since COVID we have been rapidly transitioning into a low trust society, and the only way I think we can get back where we should be is strict zero tolerance enforcement.

Fare dodging isn't the only place there's been a complete free-for-all though. You can see it in road use, shoplifting, and so on. The police don't have the resources and society as a general seems to have got a lot more entitled.

Policing- both in the literal sense of what the police do and also the wider ‘policing of rules’- is largely done by consent.

The railway has long targeted the low-hanging fruit, clobbering people for huge penalties for making minor errors or “errors” but letting the real hardcore get away with it scot-free. People who may be trying it on but who do comply with RPI instructions when caught get sent bills for hundreds of pounds; people who simply tell the RPI to eff off do not.

As any parent knows, you get the behaviour you reward. The railway tends to throw the book at people who meekly comply but tends to let the people who scream and swear and shout get away with it. So what you get is more and more people who scream and swear and shout.

 

[sannox]

The railway needs to employ people specifically to take that risk. There's a huge industry of them; every nightclub has at least one.

Would that make much difference? Supermarkets have them and people still walk out with stuff and they just give up.

 

[CastlebarKeith]

Seeing a 20+ bearded adult, approx 18 stone, going through with a ticket that flashed up "Child"
makes me think that "At least he A ticket, and TfL got SOME money"

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would that make much difference? Supermarkets have them and people still walk out with stuff and they just give up.

Supermarket security and nightclub bouncers seem to be very different people. I suspect they pay a fair bit less for the former, who indeed (like rail staff) don't physically tackle people. Nightclub bouncers absolutely do.

In the end, whoever does it, it is going to be necessary to employ people to intervene physically. You can, for the right money, get people to do that - if you couldn't, no country would have a military.

 

[43066]

As any parent knows, you get the behaviour you reward. The railway tends to throw the book at people who meekly comply but tends to let the people who scream and swear and shout get away with it. So what you get is more and more people who scream and swear and shout.

This is a false equivalence - nobody is “rewarding” people for pushing through barriers, but there simply isn’t an effective method of preventing in given a system which, as you have noticed, relies on consent.

The railway only “throws the book” at people who have committed offences, and even then the vast majority are let off with discretion.

 

[LowLevel]

A marvellous video passed my eye the other day involving a nasty little man in a Tesco aiming fly kicks and throwing large items off the shelves at the supermarket staff whilst they tried to keep out of the way. Obviously, the morals of some dingbat standing there filming are a bit dubious but I digress.

After a short period an absolute unit of a bloke flattens this chap, bounces his head off the floor and starts throttling him before he's pulled off by the shop staff, the chap tries to have another go again and gets flattened again before skulking off out of the store largely unharmed.

This is absolutely the way to deal with these unpleasant individuals and it should be written into law that doing harm to someone in these circumstances is not a problem.

I accept that there will be people saying that it is no way to respond, but on the other hand current methods don't seem to work either.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

At Birmingham New Street earlier. Scanned my ticket to go through to catch a train and before I had even moved to go through, this bloke barges through the other way.

I'm guessing you don't use trains very often, because this sort of thing is extremely common all over the country.

In fairness, as someone who uses New Street 2/3 times a week (5 days a week pre-covid...) and has done for many years I'm not sure it is something that's common at New Street. I noticed it for the first time very recently as someone tailgated me. I had no idea (noise cancelling headphones in, music on, autopilot engaged) until the person elbowed me slightly as he sped up the other side of the barrier. For which he apologised, which I thought was nice, if he's not going to pay for a ticket at least he has some manners.

I'm not sure if "extremely common all over the country" is fair, and suspect it's more "extremely common in London and happens occasionally outside of London" but I stand ready to be corrected.

 

[43066]

I'm not sure if "extremely common all over the country" is fair, and suspect it's more "extremely common in London and happens occasionally outside of London" but I stand ready to be corrected.

By definition it’s going to be visible where there are large stations with ticket barriers, so larger cities in particular. Hard to see why, as a % of travellers, it should be higher in London than (say) Leeds, Birmingham etc.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is absolutely the way to deal with these unpleasant individuals and it should be written into law that doing harm to someone in these circumstances is not a problem.

I accept that there will be people saying that it is no way to respond, but on the other hand current methods don't seem to work either.

Reminds me of the timeless Big Man thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...t-final-decision-no-charges-for-either.56738/

 

[jfowkes]

It's important to note that all this security has costs too. The biggest being monetary, employing people who are specifically trained and empowered to use physical force is expensive. But beyond that, there's a point where security measures turn from providing a feeling of safety and comfort for the public to a feeling of oppression. And it can actually go completely the other way - too many security measures can give a false "there are dangers everywhere" vibe to the railway. This is one reason I hate the "see it, say it, sorted" campaign. I want to enjoy my journey, not act as an unpaid, untrained agent on constant looked out for nebulous security issues that are apparently all around me.

Not making a comment on what side of the line the UK (or any specific TOC/station) is on at the moment, just saying the line is there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's important to note that all this security has costs too. The biggest being monetary, employing people who are specifically trained and empowered to use physical force is expensive. But beyond that, there's a point where security measures turn from providing a feeling of safety and comfort for the public to a feeling of oppression.

Merseyrail's "rentathugs" can give that impression, but to be honest with some thought about how they are dressed etc you can ameliorate that a bit. I don't think dressing them like paramilitaries makes sense - clearly they want stab vests but these can be hidden inside more formal, professional looking clothing. There does seem to be a trend of dressing security personnel like jackbooted paramilitaries and I don't think that makes sense - a sharp suit like the traditional nightclub bouncer gives a better impression.

I similarly don't think the way Police look like thugs these days in terms of the uniforms helps. I love the way the City of London Police still wear traditional style dress, though I'm sure with added protection hidden underneath.

 

[parkender102]

I can usually spot these Characters a mile off - as soon as you see them you know from their Body Language they are going to Tailgate or Force the barriers. I won't have it happen to me and will always assess who is around me before swiping/scanning and going through the Barrier. I obviously can't stop the Barrier Forceing crew but I hope CCTV Evidence is being compiled and eventually the regular dodgers will receive their comeuppance.

 

[Chris125]

It's far safer and probably more effective to report, investigate and prosecute repeat offenders than try to prevent every single case on the day which just risks creating an arms race and making life more dangerous for staff - TfL documentaries often show the techniques used.

 

[43066]

A marvellous video passed my eye the other day involving a nasty little man in a Tesco aiming fly kicks and throwing large items off the shelves at the supermarket staff whilst they tried to keep out of the way. Obviously, the morals of some dingbat standing there filming are a bit dubious but I digress.

After a short period an absolute unit of a bloke flattens this chap, bounces his head off the floor and starts throttling him before he's pulled off by the shop staff, the chap tries to have another go again and gets flattened again before skulking off out of the store largely unharmed.

This is absolutely the way to deal with these unpleasant individuals and it should be written into law that doing harm to someone in these circumstances is not a problem.

I accept that there will be people saying that it is no way to respond, but on the other hand current methods don't seem to work either.

It’s interesting to observe the approach taken in other countries: Spain for example has plenty of heavily armed police officers and rail staff patrol trains armed with enormous truncheons.

Difficult to know whether they have more or less of an issue with behaviour, and equally difficult to compare as the norms/standards of behaviour between the countries are different, of course.

I’d rather not move the UK in that direction but, if things continue as the are, that may be where we end up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's far safer and probably more effective to report, investigate and prosecute repeat offenders than try to prevent every single case on the day which just risks creating an arms race and making life more dangerous for staff - TfL documentaries often show the techniques used.

It's clearly not effective because it hasn't stopped the problem. On the ground policing (be that Police or security) is needed - there need to be immediate consequences for this sort of thing and for antisocial behaviour.

Particularly in London there's a danger of us heading in the direction South Africa has (though obviously for different background reasons) - the petty crime spree has to be stopped hard before it becomes more major crime. Today it's failing to pay train fares, tomorrow it's muggings and robberies.

 

[zwk500]

It's clearly not effective because it hasn't stopped the problem. On the ground policing (be that Police or security) is needed - there need to be immediate consequences for this sort of thing and for antisocial behaviour.

Particularly in London there's a danger of us heading in the direction South Africa has (though obviously for different background reasons) - the petty crime spree has to be stopped hard before it becomes more major crime. Today it's failing to pay train fares, tomorrow it's muggings and robberies.

Fundamentally, the railway can only do so much. It's a much wider institutional problem with policing and the justice system, and that's not the fault of train companies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fundamentally, the railway can only do so much. It's a much wider institutional problem with policing and the justice system, and that's not the fault of train companies.

It can certainly do more. Merseyrail are demonstrating what can be done. I don't overly like the feel of it, but it is certainly effective and I'm increasingly thinking, sadly, necessary.

 

[TheSmiths82]

I have seen this is a lot in London and major European cities but hardly see it in other parts of the UK. I did see it happen at Manchester Victoria once, and the BTP witnessed it, chased him and promptly arrested the him. On the Underground I see it every time I am in London but there is often no visible staff around at the smaller stations.

 

[Chris125]

It's clearly not effective because it hasn't stopped the problem.

Realistically it's not a problem that can be stopped given the law of diminishing returns, just minimised at a cost that can be justified.

This recent press release may be of interest: https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...to-halve-fare-evasion-across-all-tfl-services

New fare evasion strategy includes expanding team of professional investigators to target the most prolific fare evaders across the network, including the Elizabeth line, using expertise and advanced technology, reducing TfL revenue loss

• This team builds on recent and innovative work on London Underground and complements the more than 500 uniformed TfL officers already deployed across the network to tackle fare evasion
• New measures support TfL's plans to halve fare evasion across all TfL services to 1.5 per cent or less by 2030
• Data-driven strategy to tackle fare evasion is already making an impact, with the pan-TfL fare evasion rate dropping to 3.4 per cent from 3.8 per cent in 2023/24

Transport for London (TfL) is expanding its professional team of dedicated investigators as part of a bold new strategy to crack down on fare evasion. The team will focus on identifying and targeting the most persistent and high-impact offenders, who cost TfL thousands of pounds in lost revenue each year.

Building on recent successes on the London Underground, this team will expand to cover the Elizabeth line and London Overground before covering all other rail modes. It will also complement the work of TfL's team of more than 500 uniformed officers already deployed across the network to deal with fare evasion and other anti-social behaviour, keeping staff and customers safe.

The investigations team will take an intelligence-led approach, using advanced tools, including TfL's Irregular Travel Analysis Platform (ITAP) which uses ticketing and journey data, passenger information, and CCTV to identify fare evaders responsible for the greatest revenue loss. By analysing travel patterns, the team will focus on those who evade fares repeatedly, ensuring they are caught and held accountable.

 

[Edsmith]

Policing- both in the literal sense of what the police do and also the wider ‘policing of rules’- is largely done by consent.

The railway has long targeted the low-hanging fruit, clobbering people for huge penalties for making minor errors or “errors” but letting the real hardcore get away with it scot-free. People who may be trying it on but who do comply with RPI instructions when caught get sent bills for hundreds of pounds; people who simply tell the RPI to eff off do not.

As any parent knows, you get the behaviour you reward. The railway tends to throw the book at people who meekly comply but tends to let the people who scream and swear and shout get away with it. So what you get is more and more people who scream and swear and shout.

Exactly that, the railway industry almost encourages and rewards such behaviour. Some foul mouthed aggressive yob who never pays for their train travel gets away with it because they're too much of a handful whilst an upstanding citizen gets the book thrown at them for an innocent mistake.

 

[virgintrain1]

Exactly that, the railway industry almost encourages and rewards such behaviour. Some foul mouthed aggressive yob who never pays for their train travel gets away with it because they're too much of a handful whilst an upstanding citizen gets the book thrown at them for an innocent mistake.

Rest assured "foul mouthed aggressive yobs" receive the greatest priority from me and my colleagues.