Should some longer rural routes be sacrificed and the money spent elsewhere on the network?

[Bletchleyite]

And you wouldn't necessarily want to replicate every railway station on a coach service anyway, as many stations are poorly located. Buses and coaches can stop outside more useful locations, like GP surgeries, shops (and pubs!)

Though if you divert them via *too* many places they get slow and become unattractive compared to the car.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed on most of this, though as a non-driver I've had great days out by train reaching places I otherwise would have no means of getting to. I can't argue in good faith for taking away connectivity from non-drivers or for bustitution, when bus services have been slashed so much already.

Yes, these discussions always seem to centre around motorists and whether they would use the car instead, and downplay the problems for non drivers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, these discussions always seem to centre around motorists and whether they would use the car instead, and downplay the problems for non drivers.

While I know the likes of Charlie Hulme (still an excellent website he has!) are vehement anti-road campaigners, nothing prevents non-drivers from using buses.

If we're getting onto "non-drivers who suffer severe travel-sickness on buses such that medication doesn't work" you're heading into Standard Minority territory. And if the issue is toilet availability, a coach operating from Inverness to Wick would have a toilet, much as there are ridiculous examples like the Oxford-Bedford X5 they are hardly going to work that with a city bus unless it's that or cancellation, and in that case they can always stop for toilet use.

 

[yorksrob]

While I know the likes of Charlie Hulme (still an excellent website he has!) are vehement anti-road campaigners, nothing prevents non-drivers from using buses.

If we're getting onto "non-drivers who suffer severe travel-sickness on buses such that medication doesn't work" you're heading into Standard Minority territory.

Apart from long timings, lack of toilets, unsuitability for long distances etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apart from long timings

A service from Inverness to Wick by road takes about the same time as by rail.

lack of toilets

Coaches have toilets. Yes they can be broken, but they can on trains too!

, unsuitability for long distances etc.

How is a well-specified coach unsuitable for long distances?

FWIW one of the first things I'd do here is get stuff like the Inverness-Ullapool Citylink service onto the railway timetable/fares system, which should prove the concept one way or another. Like with Keswick, Ambleside and the likes people are a lot more likely to make a through rail-bus journey if they can buy their tickets in one go and not have to rebook at significant cost if connections are missed.

 

[NCT]

Apart from long timings, lack of toilets, unsuitability for long distances etc.

I think here the specific context is clear that we are talking about long-distance slow rural routes where the equivalent bus provision would be journey time competitive and most likely be a coach.

 

[yorksrob]

A service from Inverness to Wick by road takes about the same time as by rail.



Coaches have toilets. Yes they can be broken, but they can on trains too!



How is a well-specified coach unsuitable for long distances?

If people found them as suitable as you suggest, they would already have abandoned the train in favour of them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If people found them as suitable as you suggest, they would already have abandoned the train in favour of them.

People clearly use them, otherwise the X99 wouldn't exist. It basically serves the same places.

I think here the specific context is clear that we are talking about long-distance slow rural routes where the equivalent bus provision would be journey time competitive and most likely be a coach.

I suppose the conversation is a bit mixed - if the Conwy Valley was closed, the vehicle would likely be a full size single deck bus. But that isn't a particularly long journey.

 

[yorksrob]

I think here the specific context is clear that we are talking about long-distance slow rural routes where the equivalent bus provision would be journey time competitive and most likely be a coach.

How many of those are there ? Far North might be a special case due to its bendyness, however the ones I'm familiar with (S&C, Little North Western, Cumbrian coast etc) any bus or coach would take much longer.

 

[lachlan]

People clearly use them, otherwise the X99 wouldn't exist. It basically serves the same places.

Indeed, and people use the train too. Each mode serves a different niche. If what has said before is true that you could provide a much more frequent bus service for a fraction of the cost of the train, we should do this and provide the train. If the number of train passengers falls of a cliff we could talk about ending passenger services but I suspect people would still want to use the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, and people use the train too. Each mode serves a different niche. If what has said before is true that you could provide a much more frequent bus service for a fraction of the cost of the train, we should do this and provide the train. If the number of train passengers falls of a cliff we could talk about ending passenger services but I suspect people would still want to use the train.

I suspect to some extent free travel (which also applies to coaches in Scotland, not just buses as it does in England*) keeps the X99 afloat. Why pay a fortune for the train when the bus is free? The same thing happened on the Conwy Valley before the Welsh passes were accepted on rail, and doing so basically killed Express Motors' predatory X1 service (before the company's misdeeds caused the whole thing to collapse).

* In England, it applies to registered local bus services with a few exceptions. In Scotland it I think excludes tour buses but includes basically everything else, Megabus/Citylink included. I'm not referring to the vehicle type here - for instance ENCTS was accepted on the Oxford-Bedford X5 when that was coach operated, as it was still a registered local bus service.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed, and people use the train too. Each mode serves a different niche. If what has said before is true that you could provide a much more frequent bus service for a fraction of the cost of the train, we should do this and provide the train. If the number of train passengers falls of a cliff we could talk about ending passenger services but I suspect people would still want to use the train.

This is actually a very good point.

To give an example, The Whitby line is parallelled by a regular bus along the main road. It misses a lot of the intermediate stops and is a bit quicker as a result.

Yet you still get many passengers choosing the train, even for end to end journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is actually a very good point.

To give an example, The Whitby line is parallelled by a regular bus along the main road. It misses a lot of the intermediate stops and is a bit quicker as a result.

Yet you still get many passengers choosing the train, even for end to end journeys.

I wonder how much that might change if the buses were in the journey planner and rail fares system?

 

[A S Leib]

I wonder how much that might change if the buses were in the journey planner and rail fares system?

It isn't a long walk, but serving Middlesbrough railway station would make the bus more attractive as well, for journeys like Whitby to Newcastle.

 

[yorksrob]

I wonder how much that might change if the buses were in the journey planner and rail fares system?

I wonder also. Although there seem to be a lot joining at Middlesbrough, so unless they've changed from somewhere they'll be aware of local buses.

I should add, there are also various options to Whitby from the South by bus, including direct from York and via Scarborough, so there's no shortage of bus options already for those who seek them. The one from York is advertised on the departure board at York railway station !

 

[Indigo Soup]

FWIW one of the first things I'd do here is get stuff like the Inverness-Ullapool Citylink service onto the railway timetable/fares system, which should prove the concept one way or another.

There are a reasonably substantial number of such routes in Scotland: the Inverness-Fort William-Oban and Edinburgh-Perth- route is another. At one point they were at least listed in the National Rail Timetable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are a reasonably substantial number of such routes in Scotland: the Inverness-Fort William-Oban and Edinburgh-Perth- route is another. At one point they were at least listed in the National Rail Timetable.

Having checked it appears Ullapool actually is in the timetable (you can see it on Realtime Trains) but because no fares are defined for it it doesn't come up on searches on retailer sites, which means it might as well not be there at all.

 

[Harpo]

The most important determinant of cost of EV charging is the availability of off road parking.

Off road parking is rather more normal in rural areas than in heavily urbanised ones, at least in my experience of growing up in a fairly rural area.

I’m on a smallish estate of about 40 properties. All have off-road parking but not one has an EV.

It’s fine being able to charge at home but it’s the slim likelihood of being able to do so at the other end that forces me to stay with petrol.

 

[lachlan]

I suspect to some extent free travel (which also applies to coaches in Scotland, not just buses as it does in England*) keeps the X99 afloat. Why pay a fortune for the train when the bus is free? The same thing happened on the Conwy Valley before the Welsh passes were accepted on rail, and doing so basically killed Express Motors' predatory X1 service (before the company's misdeeds caused the whole thing to collapse).

* In England, it applies to registered local bus services with a few exceptions. In Scotland it I think excludes tour buses but includes basically everything else, Megabus/Citylink included. I'm not referring to the vehicle type here - for instance ENCTS was accepted on the Oxford-Bedford X5 when that was coach operated, as it was still a registered local bus service.

Encouraging people to take the bus instead of the train may indeed be a (unintended) consequence of the free bus passed.

A service from Inverness to Wick by road takes about the same time as by rail.



Coaches have toilets. Yes they can be broken, but they can on trains too!



How is a well-specified coach unsuitable for long distances?

FWIW one of the first things I'd do here is get stuff like the Inverness-Ullapool Citylink service onto the railway timetable/fares system, which should prove the concept one way or another. Like with Keswick, Ambleside and the likes people are a lot more likely to make a through rail-bus journey if they can buy their tickets in one go and not have to rebook at significant cost if connections are missed.

Regarding toilets,do coach toilets tend to be wheelchair accessible? The only time I've used one it was very cramped.

Not sure how many stations on these routes are wheelchair accessible, but it's worth considering.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regarding toilets,do coach toilets tend to be wheelchair accessible? The only time I've used one it was very cramped.

I don't believe they do out of pure practicality - it would literally take up half the bus to install an accessible one. But equally I would struggle to say that it would be justified to maintain a railway just so the occasional wheelchair user has an on board toilet they can use. A more reasonable adjustment would be to stop for them to use a public toilet (which are actually not that badly provided in rural Scotland, largely I guess because they don't get vandalised).

(I don't as an aside see why it's not legally required to provide accessible toilets on wide body aircraft - there's plenty of room!)

 

[duffield]

I don't believe they do out of pure practicality - it would literally take up half the bus to install an accessible one. But equally I would struggle to say that it would be justified to maintain a railway just so the occasional wheelchair user has an on board toilet they can use. A more reasonable adjustment would be to stop for them to use a public toilet (which are actually not that badly provided in rural Scotland, largely I guess because they don't get vandalised).

(I don't as an aside see why it's not legally required to provide accessible toilets on wide body aircraft - there's plenty of room!)

Sounds like a nightmare for wheelchair users. Get the coach stopped, unload, use toilet, reload, 15 minutes if you're lucky? You just know they would get grief from other passengers, particularly if the coach is already running late, and some would feel obliged to try desperately to hold on. The train situation if you're wheelchair user next to the accessible toilet is so much better there's no real comparison.

As trains are obliged to provide accessible toilets if they provide toilets at all, exactly the same should apply to coaches if they are being touted as a replacement for an existing rail service.

 

[lachlan]

Sounds like a nightmare for wheelchair users. Get the coach stopped, unload, use toilet, reload, 15 minutes if you're lucky? You just know they would get grief from other passengers, particularly if the coach is already running late, and some would feel obliged to try desperately to hold on. The train situation if you're wheelchair user next to the accessible toilet is so much better there's no real comparison.

As trains are obliged to provide accessible toilets if they provide toilets at all, exactly the same should apply to coaches if they are being touted as a replacement for an existing rail service.

I can't speak for wheelchair users but personally being able to go without stopping is a big reason for choosing the train.

(I don't as an aside see why it's not legally required to provide accessible toilets on wide body aircraft - there's plenty of room!)

This is really surprising - i had thought the aviation industry was generally very good at accommodating wheelchair users

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is really surprising - i had thought the aviation industry was generally very good at accommodating wheelchair users

Absolutely terrible in my observation. Though admittedly I am not a wheelchair user.

 

[Killingworth]

Absolutely terrible in my observation. Though admittedly I am not a wheelchair user.

Ask BBC Defence correspondent Frank Gardner who has to use a wheelchair. Terrible would be a mild version of his experiences.

 

[weeklycommuter]

It's questionable as to whether every station on the route justifies any kind of public transport service. It would be difficult to justify for instance having stations at Scotscalder, Forsinard and Altnabreac,

The second and third of the four Northbound trains each day pass the third and fourth of the four Southbound trains each day at Forsinard so they will have to keep that station for its passing loop.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

It's questionable as to whether every station on the route justifies any kind of public transport service. It would be difficult to justify for instance having stations at Scotscalder, Forsinard and Altnabreac, but at the same time it's ridiculous that Halkirk doesn't have a station - whoever did the closures of minor stations along there must have been throwing darts at a map. Georgemas probably doesn't need a station nowadays either, and the small cost of a single track curve towards Thurso would probably be justified to speed things up up there without it.

To refer back to the above, this is why the Swiss have it right - they define criteria for what sort of public transport settlements of given sizes should have, and work towards that with both openings and closures of lines and stations. Defined sensibly, such criteria would result in both openings and closures in the UK.

The network shouldn't be frozen in aspic, but equally the network shouldn't stand alone - it should be part of a national* public transport strategy and fully integrated with bus and coach (and ferry where applicable).

* Not necessarily UK wide but devolved, but either way it's needed.

Questioning whether rural places deserve public transport is risky, because when you admit that loss making, lightly used services might not make sense, you come close to admitting to yourself that in the 21st century, subsidised rural communities in very isolated locations might not make sense either. This is a bit of an existential question.

Transport to very rural regions is always going to come at disproportionate cost, and break normal rules on practicality. Added to which, actually accounting for the direct and indirect social and economic benefits of transport links to remote locations is very difficult.

I'd personally be willing to bet that the utility of the railway makes it a worthwhile subsidy to the region.

 

[Bald Rick]

Questioning whether rural places deserve public transport is risky, because when you admit that loss making, lightly used services might not make sense, you come close to admitting to yourself that in the 21st century, subsidised rural communities in very isolated locations might not make sense either. This is a bit of an existential question.

That’s not the question being asked, though.

The question being asked is, “we need a public tranpsort offer to rural places “x”, “y”, and ”z”, what is the best way of doing so that balances effectiveness and efficiency?”

It would be folly to assume that the railway will always be the correct answer to that question, even where one already exists.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Sounds like a nightmare for wheelchair users. Get the coach stopped, unload, use toilet, reload, 15 minutes if you're lucky? You just know they would get grief from other passengers, particularly if the coach is already running late, and some would feel obliged to try desperately to hold on. The train situation if you're wheelchair user next to the accessible toilet is so much better there's no real comparison.

As trains are obliged to provide accessible toilets if they provide toilets at all, exactly the same should apply to coaches if they are being touted as a replacement for an existing rail service.

I know of people with conditions that mean when they need to go, they need to go now, who can't travel by coach. The risk of the one toilet provided being occupied or in an unusable condition is too high.

Questioning whether rural places deserve public transport is risky, because when you admit that loss making, lightly used services might not make sense, you come close to admitting to yourself that in the 21st century, subsidised rural communities in very isolated locations might not make sense either. This is a bit of an existential question.

For some of the people advocating such things, that's an entirely acceptable conclusion. Those who choose to live in awkward places ought to be punished with high prices until they give up and move to the cities, leaving the countryside as a playground for the rich.

Not that they'd ever say such a thing of course.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The risk of the one toilet provided being occupied or in an unusable condition is too high.

The same applies on a lot of the rail network too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Questioning whether rural places deserve public transport is risky, because when you admit that loss making, lightly used services might not make sense, you come close to admitting to yourself that in the 21st century, subsidised rural communities in very isolated locations might not make sense either. This is a bit of an existential question.

The Swiss seem to manage to avoid that question, while having criteria based on what settlements of different population levels should have.