Class 390 - 9 Cars v 11 cars

[DarloRich]

Travelling back from Manchester yesterday on a VERY full 9 car Pendolino does highlight how short sighted it was not to extend all of the class to 11 carriages. I know there were engineering works ( I had a nice trip via Stafford and Bescot) limiting the available number of trains running but it seems so short sighted not to extend all of the class.

Two questions:

1. Why did that total extension not happen?
2. Is there any logic behind allocation to services?

(I am sure the answer to the first will be money but hoping there might be more to it!)

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Two questions:

1. Why did that total extension not happen?

(I am sure the answer to the first will be money but hoping there might be more to it!)

Unfortunately it is that simple - the DfT refused to pay for the extra carriages.

Worse... Virgin offered to pay for them themselves to get a uniform fleet of 11 cars, but the DfT refused that as well because they ( DfT ) didn't want to be saddled with the additional maintenance costs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I generally find them to be diagrammed fairly well to demand (same with the 5 and 7 car 80x) but occasionally they do end up with a shorter one than is ideal. It is a shame indeed that they weren't all extended, or that if only a limited number of extra coaches could be funded that they weren't all extended to 10 instead of some to 11.

 

[hexagon789]

I generally find them to be diagrammed fairly well to demand (same with the 5 and 7 car 80x) but occasionally they do end up with a shorter one than is ideal. It is a shame indeed that they weren't all extended, or that if only a limited number of extra coaches could be funded that they weren't all extended to 10 instead of some to 11.

Don't think 10 is possible due to the way various components are split.

The base unit is 4, two pairs making 8.

A trailer made 9.

An 11 has an additional motor and trailer with transformer and traction inverter.

Bit like the 80x, though those can only be odds i.e. - 5/7/9

Unfortunately it is that simple - the DfT refused to pay for the extra carriages.

Worse... Virgin offered to pay for them themselves to get a uniform fleet of 11 cars, but the DfT refused that as well because they ( DfT ) didn't want to be saddled with the additional maintenance costs.

There's a little more to it than that, but yes it was down to cost but also the need to extend platforms. Having 9s meant fewer platforms needed extending in awkward places, Liverpool Lime Street was one as I recall; otherwise SDO was fitted to the 11s for use at stations such as Haymarket where you could hang off the platform.

As I recall Virgin originally offered 3 options for the extension and got reasonable prices. DfT nixed that.

Then later DfT came along with a new extension option, but by that point the original 3 options had lapsed and the cost was much higher for what was obtained.

DfT micro-management at its finest.

 

[DarloRich]

Unfortunately it is that simple - the DfT refused to pay for the extra carriages.

Worse... Virgin offered to pay for them themselves to get a uniform fleet of 11 cars, but the DfT refused that as well because they ( DfT ) didn't want to be saddled with the additional maintenance costs.

argh!

I generally find them to be diagrammed fairly well to demand (same with the 5 and 7 car 80x) but occasionally they do end up with a shorter one than is ideal. It is a shame indeed that they weren't all extended, or that if only a limited number of extra coaches could be funded that they weren't all extended to 10 instead of some to 11.

I am not sure - they seem to turn up a lot on the Manchester's I use and they can be very packed on a match day Sunday. ( Insert Man Utd southern joke here!)

Whenever I get a Liverpool it semes to be an 11 car and not be anywhere near as busy. Obviously that is merely anecdotal evidence as to usage!

 

[Peter0124]

If you haven't got a reservation, the relief when an 11 car turns up is a very good feeling. Two extra coaches of unreserved seats rather than just coach C, which is only half a coach because of the shop.

 

[hexagon789]

argh!

I am not sure - they seem to turn up a lot on the Manchester's I use and they can be very packed on a match day Sunday. ( Insert Man Utd southern joke here!)

Whenever I get a Liverpool it semes to be an 11 car and not be anywhere near as busy. Obviously that is merely anecdotal evidence as to usage!

I understood that originally the 11s were for less frequent services such as Glasgow and Liverpool where there were more capacity problems than more frequent routes such as Manchester and Birmingham.

Worth remembering that Glasgow had a two-hourly service for part of the day even after VHF as there weren't enough 390s originally to offer an hourly service. The four additional units were to replace City of Glasgow and enable Glasgow to go hourly all day instead of certain workings terminating at Lancaster.

 

[stadler]

Would it be possible to place an order for 44 additional coaches to extend the 22 remaining 9 coach units to 11 coaches? Alsthom built the additional coaches ten years after the units were built so they might be willing to build more today. If they were built in the UK that would give the Alsthom factory some more much needed work. Perhaps the government could consider this again?

 

[DanNCL]

Would it be possible to place an order for 44 additional coaches to extend the 22 remaining 9 coach units to 11 coaches? Alsthom built the additional coaches ten years after the units were built so they might be willing to build more today. If they were built in the UK that would give the Alsthom factory some more much needed work. Perhaps the government could consider this again?

Considering the 390s are past mid life now it wouldn’t be a worthwhile expenditure as it’s unlikely you’d get much more than a decade of use out of them

 

[D6975]

Would it be possible to place an order for 44 additional coaches to extend the 22 remaining 9 coach units to 11 coaches? Alsthom built the additional coaches ten years after the units were built so they might be willing to build more today. If they were built in the UK that would give the Alsthom factory some more much needed work. Perhaps the government could consider this again?

Once you reach a certain date, all the jigs etc. to manufacture more coaches have been done away with. More coaches means funding a new set of jigs so the price rockets.

 

[Efini92]

Once you reach a certain date, all the jigs etc. to manufacture more coaches have been done away with. More coaches means funding a new set of jigs so the price rockets.

I believe they also don’t meet the current crash worthiness standards.

 

[43096]

Would it be possible to place an order for 44 additional coaches to extend the 22 remaining 9 coach units to 11 coaches? Alsthom built the additional coaches ten years after the units were built so they might be willing to build more today. If they were built in the UK that would give the Alsthom factory some more much needed work. Perhaps the government could consider this again?

No it isn’t possible - the design doesn’t meet current standards. There’s no point asking “Alsthom” either - the name has been Alstom for over a quarter of a century.

 

[jfowkes]

Once you reach a certain date, all the jigs etc. to manufacture more coaches have been done away with. More coaches means funding a new set of jigs so the price rockets.

I believe they also don’t meet the current crash worthiness standards.

On top of that, even if you could build identical mechanical parts, I suspect it is functionally impossible to replicate the electronics. Some components will simply not be in production so unless you can find a stock of them in some warehouse that you trust are still within spec after 20 years of storage, you're looking at building designing entirely new electronics that replicate the functionality of the old. If any of those components run embedded software, that software will need re-writing for whatever replacement processor you've found. Then there's the all the new tests that will go along with all this new hardware and software.

 

[Carlisle]

There's a little more to it than that, but
As I recall Virgin originally offered 3 options for the extension and got reasonable prices. DfT nixed that.

They wanted a franchise extension too.

 

[Lloyds siding]

I believe they also don’t meet the current crash worthiness standards.

Intrigued by this. AFAIK the only serious crash involving 390s is the Greyrigg derailment, where their crashworthiness was praised by the RAIB.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Intrigued by this. AFAIK the only serious crash involving 390s is the Greyrigg derailment, where their crashworthiness was praised by the RAIB.

It's irrelevant how well something withstands an impact if a tougher standard has since been mandated for subsequent new builds.

 

[hexagon789]

They wanted a franchise extension too.

That's true, that was part of it as well.

 

[Trainman40083]

I guess the proposed HS2 stock may well replace the need for more Pendolino coaches; even if the latter were an option. But as others have said, they are around 30 years old now, so would never be done.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I guess the proposed HS2 stock may well replace the need for more Pendolino coaches; even if the latter were an option. But as others have said, they are around 30 years old now, so would never be done.

More like 20 years, isn't it?

 

[Trainman40083]

More like 20 years, isn't it?

I think the first appeared in 2001, so I'll agree on 24 years.. Certainly over half life . Even the additional sets were 2012.

 

[Mikey C]

I assume the 7 car 807 were built to replicate the length of the 9 car 390s? It does seem an odd length though, consider that the standard length for the IETs is 9 car or 2*5?

 

[hexagon789]

I assume the 7 car 807 were built to replicate the length of the 9 car 390s? It does seem an odd length though, consider that the standard length for the IETs is 9 car or 2*5?

Capacity is not dissimilar, at least an 807 actually has more Standard Class seats than a 9-car 390.

 

[Doomotron]

Bit like the 80x, though those can only be odds i.e. - 5/7/9

I'm pretty sure that's just a myth. Or at least I haven't seen any actual evidence of it beyond people on the forums mentioning it.

 

[hexagon789]

I'm pretty sure that's just a myth. Or at least I haven't seen any actual evidence of it beyond people on the forums mentioning it.

I will have a look, someone did explain the technicalities which seemed reasonable but its so long ago I can't recall the precise details.

 

[Bald Rick]

Would it be possible to place an order for 44 additional coaches to extend the 22 remaining 9 coach units to 11 coaches? Alsthom built the additional coaches ten years after the units were built so they might be willing to build more today. If they were built in the UK that would give the Alsthom factory some more much needed work. Perhaps the government could consider this again?

There is already an order placed for 452 new coaches that will be used between Euston and Birmingham / Manchester / Liverpool / Scotland.

 

[3141]

My recollection is that about two years before the order was placed which led to the lengthening of some 390s to 11 cars and the addition of four (I think that's right) additional trains there had been a proposal to lengthen all of the class from 9 to 10 cars. I recall an article in Modern Railways by Roger Ford in which he said that there's been discussions about the class's remaining life, which at that time was reckoned to total 30 years, and Alstom agreed it could be extended as 35 in total. On that basis a business case could be made for an additional car per unit. According to Roger, those involved, i.e. Alstom, the leasing company, and Virgin, reached an informal agreement on these lines, but it was vetoed by....probably the DfT, but I don't remember precisely.

I was surprised when, two years or so later, it was announced that some trains but not all would become 11 cars and some new ones built. I think the total number of new cars was the same as if every train had become 10 cars, or very close to that number. I don't have the means of looking that up to check it.

 

[DarloRich]

There is already an order placed for 452 new coaches that will be used between Euston and Birmingham / Manchester / Liverpool / Scotland.

doesn't help my journey

Obviously it is not in any way practical to order more coaches for a 20 year old train.

 

[amahy]

I do find the diagramming of 9/11 coach pendolinos very odd. Scotland to Euston via Birmingham services seem to be the busiest in my experience, as the route goes through the highest population density of any Avanti route, however seems to frequently be only 9 cars. Whereas Blackpool to Euston via Trent Valley services seem to mostly be 11 cars, yet these services are relatively quiet compared to other routes. Please do correct me if I’m wrong in my observations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do find the diagramming of 9/11 coach pendolinos very odd. Scotland to Euston via Birmingham services seem to be the busiest in my experience, as the route goes through the highest population density of any Avanti route, however seems to frequently be only 9 cars. Whereas Blackpool to Euston via Trent Valley services seem to mostly be 11 cars, yet these services are relatively quiet compared to other routes. Please do correct me if I’m wrong in my observations.

That'll be to do with what the set does next, probably an Edinburgh.

It doesn't always make sense though. In the new timetable the 1652 (Euston-)MKC-Birmingham seems to have swapped from 5 car 805 to 11 car Pendolino, despite the 805 normally having more than enough seats for everyone, unless I guess they plan to release lots of Advances to price people onto it.

 

[AndrewE]

doesn't help my journey

Obviously it is not in any way practical to order more coaches for a 20 year old train.

That is the case for the way we do it, but somewhere like Switzerland which runs lots of fully flexible loco-hauled trains finds it easy to procure compatible new coaches...