Calmac / Northlink Ferry discussion

[Cloud Strife]

Another day, another delay:

Ferguson shipyard confirms new delay for CalMac ferry Glen Rosa

The dual-fuel ship MV Glen Rosa, destined for the Arran route, is now due to be delivered next summer, nearly eight years late.

www.bbc.com

The delivery date for MV Glen Rosa, the second of two dual-fuel CalMac ferries being built by the nationalised Ferguson shipyard, has been put back by up to nine months.

The cost of the ship has also risen - by up to £35m - meaning the two ships will cost upwards of £460m, more than four-and-a-half times the original contract price.

Ferguson Marine said it now expected Glen Rosa to be "substantially complete" in the first quarter of 2026 and delivered between April and June.
The ship, which is to serve CalMac's Arran route, was originally due for delivery in July 2018.Top

MV Glen Rosa was launched from the Ferguson slipway in Port Glasgow a year ago in a far more finished state than its identical sister ship MV Glen Sannox seven years earlier.
While there was much "fitting out" work still to be done, including specialist cryogenic pipework for its liquefied natural gas (LNG) engines, it was hoped it could be delivered by the end of September this year.

As much as I'm an SNP supporter, it's painfully obvious that there were some serious internal political problems affecting 801 and 802 (the build names for Glen Sannox and Glen Rosa). I still don't think we know who was responsible for the high level specification that demanded the use of LNG, although it seems that CalMac were deeply unhappy about having an LNG-powered ship forced on them when it wasn't really suitable for their needs. CMAL are unsurprisingly in denial, but anyone that's dealt with CMAL knows that they tend to blame CalMac for everything.

The whole thing was clearly about giving Ferguson's the work, but it was a grave mistake to assume that they could deal with a difficult LNG build when they were already running on a skeleton operation.

The worst thing is that if they had waited a few years more, we could've had two fully electric ferries on the Ardrossan-Brodick route instead. It's already seen in Norway and Denmark that existing diesel-powered ferries can be transformed into electric ones, and there are some technologies that could easily have been adopted for use in Scotland, such as incorporating wind turbines to power onboard services.

Does anyone know if there has been any serious consideration about a bridge on the Rhubodach-Colintraive route?

Nothing serious, but this is a general Scottish Office / Scottish Government problem of not building relatively simple infrastructure. Most of the islands could and should have had fixed links built years ago.

did consider it as part of a wider North Ayrshire-Little Cumbrae-Bute-Cowal bridge route, but not on its own merits.

I've always thought that one of the major missing pieces of infrastructure in Scotland is to build a Dunoon-Gourock tunnel as it would only need about a 3km tunnel. It's nothing major in European terms, and if it was combined with a Rhubodach-Colintraive bridge, Rothesay and Bute would finally receive a reliable link to Glasgow and beyond. The ferry could then be downsized to a passenger-only operation.

 

[sannox]

I had a question that relates to CalMac and isn't worth a thread.
Does anyone know if there has been any serious consideration about a bridge on the Rhubodach-Colintraive route?
It appears to show up occasionally in various community social media groups and the like, but I can't find anything "official".

It's only 410m, and although it is comparatively deep for the distance, the ferry takes up a significant portion of the entire length!
Operating the ferry like that can't be cheap.

The issue is whilst the ferry is 400m, you'd likely have to build a longer bridge to get sufficient height. Be a fair old project and once you are at Colintraive, it's still 2 hours to Glasgow- assuming no issue with the rest so Ferry to Wemyss Bay is still better!

 

[Cloud Strife]

The issue is whilst the ferry is 400m, you'd likely have to build a longer bridge to get sufficient height. Be a fair old project and once you are at Colintraive, it's still 2 hours to Glasgow- assuming no issue with the rest so Ferry to Wemyss Bay is still better!

To be honest, it wouldn't be that big a deal. It's one of those things that exist solely because there's no votes in the infrastructure, even though connecting Bute with Cowal would give a lot of benefits to both communities.

It's the same story on the Western Isles. They could and should be connected by tunnel so that it's possible to drive from one end to another without ferries. Yet this has gone nowhere, even though they could eliminate the Uig-Tarbert, Berneray-Leverburgh and Eriksay-Barra ferries by building two links.

Even islands like Arran could benefit immensely from fixed links, such as from Cloanaig to Lochranza. They would gain an all-weather connection for dangerous goods like fuel, and it would also let them get on and off the island during storms.

 

[Albaman]

Another day, another delay:

Ferguson shipyard confirms new delay for CalMac ferry Glen Rosa

The dual-fuel ship MV Glen Rosa, destined for the Arran route, is now due to be delivered next summer, nearly eight years late.

www.bbc.com

I still don't think we know who was responsible for the high level specification that demanded the use of LNG, although it seems that CalMac were deeply unhappy about having an LNG-powered ship forced on them when it wasn't really suitable for their needs. CMAL are unsurprisingly in denial, but anyone that's dealt with CMAL knows that they tend to blame CalMac for everything.

In view of the issues regarding the availability, transport and storage of LNG, in the event that some sort of enquiry is held into the sorry state of affairs surrounding the procurement of these ships, I hope the person or persons responsible for the LNG recommendation is held to account.

 

[AlastairFraser]

To be honest, it wouldn't be that big a deal. It's one of those things that exist solely because there's no votes in the infrastructure, even though connecting Bute with Cowal would give a lot of benefits to both communities.

It's the same story on the Western Isles. They could and should be connected by tunnel so that it's possible to drive from one end to another without ferries. Yet this has gone nowhere, even though they could eliminate the Uig-Tarbert, Berneray-Leverburgh and Eriksay-Barra ferries by building two links.

Even islands like Arran could benefit immensely from fixed links, such as from Cloanaig to Lochranza. They would gain an all-weather connection for dangerous goods like fuel, and it would also let them get on and off the island during storms.

Can't see Arran getting a fixed link, it's nearly 11 miles to the mainland at the narrowest point, and Kintyre is way too thinly populated for it to work just connected to Arran.

However, with the Western Isles, I agree - fixed links would provide an all weather alternative to the ferries and reduce ongoing subsidy to a minimum, especially if there was some form of higher tourist tier pricing.
The Faroese should be invited to bid for a Build, Operate and Transfer project for these, funded with a mix of tolls and government grants.

A route involving a series of bridges and new road alignments connecting the end of the A78 dual carriageway at Ardgowan to Tarbert in Kintyre via Cowal and Bute would probably be viable too, you'd replace a few PSO Calmac routes along the route (although Rothesay to Wemyss Bay would probably still operate as a seasonal tourist boat), and any potential future fixed link to NI may be easier from Kintyre. This project would require a much higher proportion of government grant funding though I'd say.

 

[sannox]

To be honest, it wouldn't be that big a deal. It's one of those things that exist solely because there's no votes in the infrastructure, even though connecting Bute with Cowal would give a lot of benefits to both communities.

It's the same story on the Western Isles. They could and should be connected by tunnel so that it's possible to drive from one end to another without ferries. Yet this has gone nowhere, even though they could eliminate the Uig-Tarbert, Berneray-Leverburgh and Eriksay-Barra ferries by building two links.

Even islands like Arran could benefit immensely from fixed links, such as from Cloanaig to Lochranza. They would gain an all-weather connection for dangerous goods like fuel, and it would also let them get on and off the island during storms.

It would be in the high hundreds of millions to build a fixed link between Bute and Cowal. I'm not sure of the cost benefit of that.

Also you also have to consider there may well be opposition to fixed link from islanders too.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Can't see Arran getting a fixed link, it's nearly 11 miles to the mainland at the narrowest point, and Kintyre is way too thinly populated for it to work just connected to Arran.

The trouble with an Arran fixed link is that people from Arran want to get to Glasgow. Even the mainland terminal being moved from Ardrossan to Girvan is a cause for complaint because it's less convenient.

Also you also have to consider there may well be opposition to fixed link from islanders too.

Such appears to be the case with Bute: it looks to be about a 50/50 split between those who want the convenience of a fixed link, and those who feel it would undermine the island character.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The trouble with an Arran fixed link is that people from Arran want to get to Glasgow. Even the mainland terminal being moved from Ardrossan to Girvan is a cause for complaint because it's less convenient.

Indeed, so that's why it's not really viable, because of the distance that you'd need to cover to link even Brodick to Ardrossan, plus the recent huge investment in new ferries (Peel Ports really need to be forced to sort out Ardrossan port before it completely goes).

I think you mean Troon, not Girvan - that really would be ridiculous!

 

[Oxfordblues]

For fifty years I have made an annual pilgrimage to the Cycladic island of Ios in Greece There is no airport and the island relies entirely on a series of shipping lines and inter-island ferries. Never once have I heard any local or visitor complain about their access to the outside world.

So I'm afraid I do get the impression that there is an element of "whinging", however justified, about similar issues in Scotland

 

[AlastairFraser]

For fifty years I have made an annual pilgrimage to the Cycladic island of Ios in Greece There is no airport and the island relies entirely on a series of shipping lines and inter-island ferries. Never once have I heard any local or visitor complain about their access to the outside world.

So I'm afraid I do get the impression that there is an element of "whinging", however justified, about similar issues in Scotland

The Greek climate probably makes ferry operation a bit easier and more reliable though

 

[Meerkat]

It's the same story on the Western Isles. They could and should be connected by tunnel so that it's possible to drive from one end to another without ferries. Yet this has gone nowhere, even though they could eliminate the Uig-Tarbert, Berneray-Leverburgh and Eriksay-Barra ferries by building two links.

It would be an insane amount of money for less than 30k people!

They would gain an all-weather connection for dangerous goods like fuel

It would be a tunnel so dangerous goods might not even be allowed

A route involving a series of bridges and new road alignments connecting the end of the A78 dual carriageway at Ardgowan to Tarbert in Kintyre via Cowal and Bute would probably be viable too,

My crayoning always hits the buffers when I look at the shore infrastructure needed - even a minimalist bypass of Greenock would add massively to the bill. Plus the necessary road improvements the other side would be expensive and deeply unpopular.

The future is electric ferries. What I don’t understand is how the mismanagement of ferry replacement hasnt been a bigger scandal - has anyone been criminally investigated or at least sacked?

 

[AlastairFraser]

My crayoning always hits the buffers when I look at the shore infrastructure needed - even a minimalist bypass of Greenock would add massively to the bill. Plus the necessary road improvements the other side would be expensive and deeply unpopular.

The future is electric ferries. What I don’t understand is how the mismanagement of ferry replacement hasnt been a bigger scandal - has anyone been criminally investigated or at least sacked?

I don't think you'd need to bypass Greenock with the expected traffic levels.
It's true that you would receive some opposition to the connecting road sections across Cowal and Bute, but it's a once in a generation project to secure their future. At the end of the day, it has to be done.

Electric ferries suitable for carrying more than foot passenger traffic in a Scottish winter aren't necessarily viable for the moment.
The ferry replacement has been a huge scandal - Ferguson Marine have suffered massively out of this, and probably won't get any significant passengers orders again from CMAL, unless they can turn things around.
There haven't been any prosecutions because of the common theme of a lack of accountability for senior officials in this country.
Just look at what happened with the PPE procurement scandal - we haven't seen anyone major jailed or convicted for that. It's a British disease, sadly.

 

[sannox]

I don't think you'd need to bypass Greenock with the expected traffic levels.

You wouldn't have to but I'd suggest that Greenock which is already pretty congested would start to struggle further if a fixed link to Cowal was brought in.

That said I'd be surprised to see fixed links happen in the next 30 years - technically it would be an enormous project.

 

[AlastairFraser]

You wouldn't have to but I'd suggest that Greenock which is already pretty congested would start to struggle further if a fixed link to Cowal was brought in.

That said I'd be surprised to see fixed links happen in the next 30 years - technically it would be an enormous project.

Off-season I think you'd be fine, but it would probably struggle a bit with induced demand in the summer I agree. At which point, you think about bypasses of the worst bits.

I agree it's probably not a priority.
I think Orkney/Shetland or the Western Isles are likely higher up the list for fixed links between the islands, but it is something that definitely merits deeper study into options, if Scotland experiences a major economic boom or other event that results in funding becoming available (EU funding etc.)

 

[Cloud Strife]

It would be an insane amount of money for less than 30k people!

Perhaps, but look what the Faroes have done with a 55k population. There's no excuse for Scotland to not build basic infrastructure, especially given the hardships and disadvantages of living in the Western Isles. While I don't think we should be piling into tunnels to Arran straight away, we really need to have a programme in place to build 'easy' fixed links. Skye got their bridge 30 years ago, and we haven't seen anything comparable since.

It would be a tunnel so dangerous goods might not even be allowed

This is normally handled by having special hours and escorts in the Alpine tunnels. Mont Blanc bans them completely, but that's because of the specifics of the long long climb up from Aosta and Chamonix rather than the tunnel actually requiring it.

The future is electric ferries. What I don’t understand is how the mismanagement of ferry replacement hasnt been a bigger scandal - has anyone been criminally investigated or at least sacked?

The problem is that electric ferries are still subject to the weather, which isn't so much a problem on more sheltered runs. For instance, what do you do if docking isn't possible in Ardrossan and the ferry has to go to Gourock? Of course, it absolutely is the future, but fixed links are much more advantageous to disadvantaged island communities.

It's true that you would receive some opposition to the connecting road sections across Cowal and Bute, but it's a once in a generation project to secure their future. At the end of the day, it has to be done.

There would be opposition, but I suspect most of the opposition would come from those with holiday homes rather than the locals. I've got first hand experience of this on Arran, where someone who had retired to Arran was leading a strong petition against a local farmer who had prepared plans to build 40 new homes, including 10 that would be provided 'at-cost' to local residents who had been on the council housing list the longest. He was quite adamant that he wouldn't sell the houses to just anyone, that he wanted local buyers to enhance the community.

About Shetland/Orkney: this is also a topic that isn't spoken about enough. Both of them are suffering with ancient boats that need to be replaced, and there's no sign of new tonnage anywhere. Orkney in particular has quite a few ferries that could be quickly replaced with short fixed links.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I suspect that this is drifting very much off topic for this thread, but the one fixed link I can see being built conceivably in my lifetime is orkney to the Scottish mainland and maybe a couple internally within orkney and Shetland.
Does anyone have any practical experience of reliability on the Uig loch maddy run? I'm planning a trip end of September and was hoping to use this route but if it's hopelessly awful I might rethink

 

[Indigo Soup]

For what it's worth, the three fixed links that were identified as justifying further study during STPR2 were for the Sound of Harris, Sound of Barra, and Mull to mainland Scotland. The high-level cost estimate to provide all three was £1.29 billion in 2022.

There does also seem to be some fairly strong support in Shetland for tunnels to connect Unst and Yell to mainland Shetland, although the economic argument is probably rather weak.

Does anyone have any practical experience of reliability on the Uig loch maddy run? I'm planning a trip end of September and was hoping to use this route but if it's hopelessly awful I might rethink

Uig-Lochmaddy has a 'graceful degradation' option that the other routes lack - if there's a problem with the ferry, the Uig-Tarbert route is dropped and passengers directed to use other routes (either Stornway-Ullapool, or Leverburgh-Berneray then to Lochmaddy) while Uig-Lochmaddy keeps running.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Thanks, that's encouraging

 

[AlastairFraser]

There would be opposition, but I suspect most of the opposition would come from those with holiday homes rather than the locals. I've got first hand experience of this on Arran, where someone who had retired to Arran was leading a strong petition against a local farmer who had prepared plans to build 40 new homes, including 10 that would be provided 'at-cost' to local residents who had been on the council housing list the longest. He was quite adamant that he wouldn't sell the houses to just anyone, that he wanted local buyers to enhance the community.

About Shetland/Orkney: this is also a topic that isn't spoken about enough. Both of them are suffering with ancient boats that need to be replaced, and there's no sign of new tonnage anywhere. Orkney in particular has quite a few ferries that could be quickly replaced with short fixed links.

Doesn't surprise me. Any referenda on the issue should be limited to residents who have their primary residence on the island really.

Totally agreed with Shetland and Orkney. The Faroese would probably be great at completing some of the shorter links for a reasonable price per mile (especially in comparison to typical UK construction prices!)

 

[StarCrossing]

Due to a fault with CalMac's text alert system, for the last 24 hours I've been getting alerts for the whole network. It's really highlighted to me how bad the situation is with the major vessels at the moment. My phone is pinging non-stop!

There are 10 major vessels owned by CMAL and operated by CalMac. Here's the situation with each of them over the last 24 hours:

• Four vessels - Finlaggan, Isle of Arran, Isle of Lewis and Loch Seaforth - seem to have had no issues over the past 24 hours.
• Hebrides has an issue with her bow visor, which is causing minor disruption.
• Lord of the Isles has been late returning from her annual overhaul.
• Glen Sannox had a problem with her steering gear this morning. Fortunately, this was resolved, but both her and Alfred (on charter, covering for Caledonian Isles) are running very late as a result. It has also highlighted to me a problem with using Troon as the sole mainland port for the Brodick service, as Alfred couldn't access the pier while Glen Sannox was broken down.
• Isle of Mull has been only carrying 45 passengers due a problem with her evacuation system. This was due to be fixed by mid-June, but it appears to have been quietly announced today that it will be end-June instead.
• Clansman has a faulty tannoy and so all her sailings today have been cancelled and tomorrow's are at risk.
• Caledonian Isles still hasn't sailed for over a year, and her return date has just been pushed back further by a week.

On the plus side, the information provided during the time has been excellent. CalMac also came up with a smart solution to serve Colonsay today despite Clansman's issues, by using Lord of Isles on her way back from her overhaul and then Isle of Mull on her way to get her evacuation system fixed (in train terms, broadly speaking they turned ECS runs into passenger services). They are also clawing back some of the delays on the Brodick route by turning the ferries around quickly.

I have a big trip around the network planned in a couple of weeks. I have back-up plans for my back-up plans!

 

[Blindtraveler]

A source courtesy of a friend who now lives in the Hebrides says there is much consternation at the plans to return the Isle of Lewis to the leasing company, whilst her root availability may be limited at the moment. Someone has apparently made the point that some of the port and infrastructure works being done for the new and reshuffled fleet. Might in fact increase her flexibility and retaining her at least for the next half decade or so. Until they have another midlife vessel to drop on to relief, backup duties would be extremely sensible.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Due to a fault with CalMac's text alert system, for the last 24 hours I've been getting alerts for the whole network. It's really highlighted to me how bad the situation is with the major vessels at the moment. My phone is pinging non-stop!

Thanks for that! It really goes to show how desperately CalMac need new tonnage to replace the older vessels.

A source courtesy of a friend who now lives in the Hebrides says there is much consternation at the plans to return the Isle of Lewis to the leasing company, whilst her root availability may be limited at the moment.

I agree, I think it's quite short sighted on the part of CMAL to dispose of her when she's capable of working as a relief vessel on the Pentland Firth, and I believe she could be used in service between Aberdeen and Kirkwall/Lerwick too if needed. She wasn't pushed hard on the Stornoway-Ullapool run, and she could still be useful as a relief vessel. The problem is that she failed berthing trials on quite a few ports, so she might be of limited usefulness.

Having said that, the plan is currently for MV Finlaggan to act as the large relief vessel. She's quite a bit smaller (92 cars vs 142 cars) than Isle of Lewis, but she will be able to operate at the vast majority of CalMac's major vessel ports, if not all. Unfortunately, as robust and reliable as Isle of Lewis is, there's no point in keeping her if she can't serve half the network.

With the new ships coming, there also shouldn't be such a strong need to have a large ship available to meet demand on some routes.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I still suspect that common sense will prevail and she'll be kept, from memory. I think there are perhaps four routes that she can serve as well as as you say, being able to deputise on the petland firth and Aberdeen runs. Although for the latter, she is vastly under-equipped, that said, the tourist demand on the Aberdeen Shetland run is such that vessel capable of doing a daytime service or a more economy-based service to shift large numbers during the summer would be useful

 

[Buzby]

being able to deputise on the petland firth and Aberdeen runs.

I’m confused. CMAL don’t provide services in the east. MV Alfred was hired in at cost for the Arran run but NorthLink is a separate entity and no need or requirement to ‘deputise’.

 

[StarCrossing]

I’m confused. CMAL don’t provide services in the east. MV Alfred was hired in at cost for the Arran run but NorthLink is a separate entity and no need or requirement to ‘deputise’.

I think you're getting confused between CMAL and CalMac - easy to do!

CMAL doesn't provide any ferry services. They own ships that are operated by CalMac and ships that are operated by NorthLink. Alfred is owned by Pentland Ferries, a different operator.

 

[MatthewHutton]

The Greek climate probably makes ferry operation a bit easier and more reliable though

The Mediterranean is also effectively an inland sea so has calmer weather/waves.

 

[BayPaul]

I still suspect that common sense will prevail and she'll be kept, from memory. I think there are perhaps four routes that she can serve as well as as you say, being able to deputise on the petland firth and Aberdeen runs. Although for the latter, she is vastly under-equipped, that said, the tourist demand on the Aberdeen Shetland run is such that vessel capable of doing a daytime service or a more economy-based service to shift large numbers during the summer would be useful

There really is no sensible reason to keep her. I believe there are only two routes she fits on - Oban to Barra and Ullapool to Stornoway, and she is far too big for Barra (she's only doing it because there's nothing else for her) and too small for Stornoway. She's OK as a relief on the Pentland Firth, but so is Finlaggen, but wouldn't be at all suitable for Aberdeen - if there was a demand for daytime services then they could run them on the existing ships - the crossing can be done in 10 hours, so a round trip on the days they don't do Kirkwall would be achievable.

Having Finlaggen as a relief and a pretty modern regular fleet of 12 large ships (7 brand new, two newish, 2 late 90s and 1 early 90s) feels like an ideal position to be in.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Refresh my memory. Somebody please, what is the 90s tonnage that they intend to keep and I assume they'll start making plans to replace that once the current build program has concluded

 

[StarCrossing]

Refresh my memory. Somebody please, what is the 90s tonnage that they intend to keep and I assume they'll start making plans to replace that once the current build program has concluded

Caledonian Isles, Clansman and Hebrides were all built (at least partially) in the 90s and, according to post #74 above, are being kept.

 

[43055]

Refresh my memory. Somebody please, what is the 90s tonnage that they intend to keep and I assume they'll start making plans to replace that once the current build program has concluded

After the vessels currently being built the next planned to be replaced is Lord of the Isles built in 1989 and currently does the Mallaig - Lochboisdale route.