Time for York to come in from the cold and join WY Metro

[Magdalia]

I mean meaningful democratic control. Parliament isn't going to bother organising public transport in Yorkshire.

Parliament delegates powers on local transport to mayors and local councils. There is meaningful democratic control at mayoral and council elections, more so than in many other policy areas. The West Yorkshire Metro demonstrates that: it has cheap fares because the voters choose mayors and councils that fund the subsidies needed to keep the fares low, and set the council tax to balance the books.

Indeed, but we should be focusing on the travel patterns of today, rather than arbitrary local boundaries.

Boundaries may be arbitrary, but local democracy cannot function without them. Boundaries are what allows voters on one side of the boundary line to make different choices from voters the other side of the boundary line.

In this case voters on one side of the boundary have made a difference choice to voters on the other side of the boundary. In West Yorkshire, voters want cheap fares, and are willing to pay the council tax required to deliver that. In York and North Yorkshire, voters would rather have higher fares and lower council tax. That's local democracy.

People in York wanting cheap fares to Leeds, but expecting the council tax payers of West Yorkshire to pay, are parasites. In the latest version of local democracy, a proposal like this could only go forward if the voters of the York and North Yorkshire Combined Authority elected a mayor committed to joining the West Yorkshire Metro, and, having funds available to pay for their contribution to the fares subsidy, able to reach a negotiated deal with the West Yorkshire mayor.

 

[yorksrob]

Parliament delegates powers on local transport to mayors and local councils. There is meaningful democratic control at mayoral and council elections, more so than in many other policy areas. The West Yorkshire Metro demonstrates that: it has cheap fares because the voters choose mayors and councils that fund the subsidies needed to keep the fares low, and set the council tax to balance the books.


Boundaries may be arbitrary, but local democracy cannot function without them. Boundaries are what allows voters on one side of the boundary line to make different choices from voters the other side of the boundary line.

In this case voters on one side of the boundary have made a difference choice to voters on the other side of the boundary. In West Yorkshire, voters want cheap fares, and are willing to pay the council tax required to deliver that. In York and North Yorkshire, voters would rather have higher fares and lower council tax. That's local democracy.

People in York wanting cheap fares to Leeds, but expecting the council tax payers of West Yorkshire to pay, are parasites. In the latest version of local democracy, a proposal like this could only go forward if the voters of the York and North Yorkshire Combined Authority elected a mayor committed to joining the West Yorkshire Metro, and, having funds available to pay for their contribution to the fares subsidy, able to reach a negotiated deal with the West Yorkshire mayor.

West Yorkshire Metro had to be made (along with the other PTE's) precisely because the traditional local and county councils didn't have the power to influence transport policy in a meaningful way.

Ordinary local and county councils don't have that power and never did.

There's no suggestion that the people of York wouldn't contribute towards a joint fares structure - and even if they did, plenty of West Yorkshire folk would benefit from not being fleeced by TPE as well.

 

[Iskra]

Wouldn’t the sensible starting point for this be for West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire to come to a mutual agreement, which would abolish expensive boundary fare issues for passenger. These two councils at least have similar ideologies and transport policies. If SY and WY could get something off the ground, you’d then probably get more interest from the rest of Yorkshire.

 

[yorksrob]

Wouldn’t the sensible starting point for this be for West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire to come to a mutual agreement, which would abolish expensive boundary fare issues for passenger. These two councils at least have similar ideologies and transport policies. If SY and WY could get something off the ground, you’d then probably get more interest from the rest of Yorkshire.

I can see that, but the fares cliff edge to South Yorkshire doesn't seem as bad.

 

[Magdalia]

West Yorkshire Metro had to be made (along with the other PTE's) precisely because the traditional local and county councils didn't have the power to influence transport policy in a meaningful way.

Ordinary local and county councils don't have that power and never did.

That is now changing. Combined authority mayors have more power, and that will be further enhanced once Great British Railways is established. In a few years time all of England will have combined authority mayors and unitary local authorities.

 

[yorkie]

...People in York wanting cheap fares to Leeds, but expecting the council tax payers of West Yorkshire to pay, are parasites...

Is council tax in West Yorkshire much higher than York in order to subsidise rail fares within West Yorkshire?

Are the cheaper fares in West Yorks definitely subsidised by council tax, and not central Government?

I also think you will find it is more that people from places like West Yorks are wanting to come to York far more than the other way round!

 

[Iskra]

Is council tax in West Yorkshire much higher than York in order to subsidise rail fares within West Yorkshire?

Are the cheaper fares in West Yorks definitely subsidised by council tax, and not central Government?

I also think you will find it is more that people from places like West Yorks are wanting to come to York far more than the other way round!

I suspect WY to York is a strong daytrip market, but more Yorkists commute to Leeds for work than vice versa.

 

[yorkie]

I suspect WY to York is a strong daytrip market, but more Yorkists commute to Leeds for work than vice versa.

If you are just talking about people commuting to work, then yes, York to W Yorks is likely to be greater than the other way round.

But the point still stands; overall, surely more people would benefit in W Yorks than York, if fares between W Yorks and York were lowered.

 

[johntea]

They seemed to introduce those 'Zone 6/7' Harrogate/Skipton tickets many years ago and then seem to barely ackowledge them, by the looks you still only have the option of a flimsy paper ticket for them rather than having them loaded onto a phone/MCard (I had the Harrogate one for a 2/3 year period a few years back and must have had to replace 20-30 times a year due to the magnetic strip packing in!)

Also I always felt slightly annoyed that those particular products don't even include bus travel! (I can perhaps forgive North Yorkshire but West Yorkshire would have been nice!)

 

[RT4038]

Is council tax in West Yorkshire much higher than York in order to subsidise rail fares within West Yorkshire?

Are the cheaper fares in West Yorks definitely subsidised by council tax, and not central Government?

I also think you will find it is more that people from places like West Yorks are wanting to come to York far more than the other way round!

I believe the issue would be that the former PTE areas have fund raising powers through a precept added to Council Tax. The other Local Authorities do not have that facility. With Council Tax effectively capped, increasing funding to pay for rail fare reductions would have to come from the general council budget (i.e. by taking it from some other area of council expenditure). With the crisis in funding of statutory duties, particularly Adult and Child social care and Special Educational Needs, such a transfer of funding is highly unlikely.

 

[yorksrob]

That is now changing. Combined authority mayors have more power, and that will be further enhanced once Great British Railways is established. In a few years time all of England will have combined authority mayors and unitary local authorities.

In that cast it should be an opportunity to get rid of the anomaly that York is cut off from its nearest economic centres.

If you are just talking about people commuting to work, then yes, York to W Yorks is likely to be greater than the other way round.

But the point still stands; overall, surely more people would benefit in W Yorks than York, if fares between W Yorks and York were lowered.

Both sides benefit surely.

I believe the issue would be that the former PTE areas have fund raising powers through a precept added to Council Tax. The other Local Authorities do not have that facility. With Council Tax effectively capped, increasing funding to pay for rail fare reductions would have to come from the general council budget (i.e. by taking it from some other area of council expenditure). With the crisis in funding of statutory duties, particularly Adult and Child social care and Special Educational Needs, such a transfer of funding is highly unlikely.

Yes, the ordinary council budgets are being hammered by social care costs. There would have to be special provision.

 

[Magdalia]

Is council tax in West Yorkshire much higher than York in order to subsidise rail fares within West Yorkshire?

Are the cheaper fares in West Yorks definitely subsidised by council tax, and not central Government?

In the early days of the Passenger Transport Authorities the funding was quite transparent, a mixture of government grant and a separate Passenger Transport Authority council tax precept.

It is less clear now because of the creation of the Combined Authority mayors.

Councils are also constrained by law on what they can spend on, including spending outside their own area.

I believe the issue would be that the former PTE areas have fund raising powers through a precept added to Council Tax. The other Local Authorities do not have that facility. With Council Tax effectively capped, increasing funding to pay for rail fare reductions would have to come from the general council budget (i.e. by taking it from some other area of council expenditure). With the crisis in funding of statutory duties, particularly Adult and Child social care and Special Educational Needs, such a transfer of funding is highly unlikely.

This is a good assessment of the current constraints on local authority expenditure.

In that cast it should be an opportunity to get rid of the anomaly that York is cut off from its nearest economic centres.

The new mayors and Great British Railways do create an opportunity that has not been there before. The mayor can raise a precept to pay for transport improvements. For example, here in Cambridgeshire and Peterborough we have a small mayor's precept. Things it pays for include senior bus passes can be used before 0930 and the Tiger Card that allows young people to get a £1 bus fare. But both of these only apply for journeys starting in the Cambridgeshire and Peterborough area.

 

[YorksLad12]

They seemed to introduce those 'Zone 6/7' Harrogate/Skipton tickets many years ago and then seem to barely ackowledge them, by the looks you still only have the option of a flimsy paper ticket for them rather than having them loaded onto a phone/MCard (I had the Harrogate one for a 2/3 year period a few years back and must have had to replace 20-30 times a year due to the magnetic strip packing in!)

Also I always felt slightly annoyed that those particular products don't even include bus travel! (I can perhaps forgive North Yorkshire but West Yorkshire would have been nice!)

It would have cost too much (to WYPTE) to include the bus element. Being able to travel at a discounted rate across Craven District at WY taxpayers expense was never going to happen!

As I recall, neither zone offered that much of a discount over a season ticket from Steeton to Skipton or Horsfoth to Harrogate.

 

[30907]

West Yorkshire Metro had to be made (along with the other PTE's) precisely because the traditional local and county councils didn't have the power to influence transport policy in a meaningful way.

1. WYPTE was created when West Yorkshire was created - same with all the metropolitan counties of 1974 under Heath, which of course had considerably greater powers all round (and were abolished by a different Conservative regime that didn't like that idea, but I digress).

2. The 1974 boundary made fairly good sense - less so with the reopening of Cononley and Steeton, and the subsequent growth of housing and the influx of offcumdens in that part of Airedale. The Metro boundary at Steeton definitely distorted travel patterns - I remember driving from Cononley and "kerchinging" from there, when for a few £ more I could have walked to the station....

Arguably Skipton should be the boundary now, as it is where most rail and all bus services end. I am rather less convinced about Harrogate/Knaresborough, and much less about York, purely on geographical grounds.

 

[yorksrob]

1. WYPTE was created when West Yorkshire was created - same with all the metropolitan counties of 1974 under Heath, which of course had considerably greater powers all round (and were abolished by a different Conservative regime that didn't like that idea, but I digress).

2. The 1974 boundary made fairly good sense - less so with the reopening of Cononley and Steeton, and the subsequent growth of housing and the influx of offcumdens in that part of Airedale. The Metro boundary at Steeton definitely distorted travel patterns - I remember driving from Cononley and "kerchinging" from there, when for a few £ more I could have walked to the station....

Arguably Skipton should be the boundary now, as it is where most rail and all bus services end. I am rather less convinced about Harrogate/Knaresborough, and much less about York, purely on geographical grounds.

To be fair, Skipton is entirely sensibly in the boundary - given that the stoppers from Leeds and Bradford terminate there.

Aside from geography (which I think points York more to WYorks anyway) Yorks has strong economic links with West Yorks.

From a historical point of view, it seems odd that York should be divided from its county hinterland. Surely joining Metro would see it reasserting its rightful place of influence in the West Riding.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I'm amazed that there are some here that think York being pushed in to West Yorkshire Metro is a good idea. First of all WYM is very much an urban construct and like all the Metro areas has the overwhelming bulk of its population living in a near contiguous urban sprawl. Where there are gaps in the urbanisation they tend to extend for only a few miles. The direct distance between the centres of Leeds (the de-facto capital of West Yorkshire) and York is 22 miles, the distance between their suburban limits is 14 miles. In between is a whole lot of nothing apart from the small town of Tadcaster (population 6,350). There is no sense at all that York is closely connected to Leeds/West Yorkshire in a geographical way.

Furthermore York itself is a major economic and cultural hub for the Vale of York, and beyond, extending over much of North Yorkshire and part of East Yorkshire too. Any decision making affecting York is often going to affect its hinterland as well and especially where local transport is concerned. So if York was to be added to West Yorkshire then the Vale of York would need to be added with it. At which point you no longer have a Metro region but a smaller version of traditional Yorkshire, which of course dates back to a time before there were any properly big towns at all. And any focus on the rather different needs of the Metro area compared with York/Vale of York is lost. It's a bad idea.

It's also worth noting that the legislation which allows for the creation of Combined Authorities specifically rules out any overlaps between them where they happen to be adjacent. Clearly the intention is that CAs will look after their own areas but there is nothing preventing them from co-operating to deal with cross-boundary issues. Indeed an agreement to do just that already exists between West Yorkshire and York & North Yorkshire CAs with an intention clearly expressed that such an agreement should also be concluded with Hull & East Yorkshire as soon as that newly created CA has got people appointed to the necessary positions.

This thread was clearly born of the ongoing frustration at the relatively expensive rail fares between Leeds and York. But yet another re-organisation of local government structures is not the way to resolve the issue. I suspect the way forward will not only need the co-operation of the two CAs concerned but also GBR as and when that finally gets up and running. And remember also that any CA's transport remit is not solely about public transport, it also includes a wider responsibility for general traffic management meaning they will inevitably become involved with local district councils in road improvement schemes with all the budgetary implications that implies.

 

[zwk500]

From a historical point of view, it seems odd that York should be divided from its county hinterland. Surely joining Metro would see it reasserting its rightful place of influence in the West Riding.

York is not going to reassert anything over Leeds even if it tried to use military force. That's a completely ludicrous idea.

 

[yorksrob]

York is not going to reassert anything over Leeds even if it tried to use military force. That's a completely ludicrous idea.

A "place of influence" doesn't mean marching on Leeds. It's far more about regaining some influence over a transport corridor which is incredibly important to it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2025 ==

I'm amazed that there are some here that think York being pushed in to West Yorkshiparts of West Yorkshire.re Metro is a good idea. First of all WYM is very much an urban construct and like all the Metro areas has the overwhelming bulk of its population living in a near contiguous urban sprawl. Where there are gaps in the urbanisation they tend to extend for only a few miles. The direct distance between the centres of Leeds (the de-facto capital of West Yorkshire) and York is 22 miles, the distance between their suburban limits is 14 miles. In between is a whole lot of nothing apart from the small town of Tadcaster (population 6,350). There is no sense at all that York is closely connected to Leeds/West Yorkshire in a geographical way.

It's how connected it is in an economic way. Walsden is around 23 miles from Leeds, Marsden 20, so York's 22 miles isn't unusual. Plus in terms of journey time, York is a lot closer to Leeds than some of the outer reaches of the West Yorkshire Metro area. Arguably the towns of Harrogate and Knaresborough ought to be included in this orbit as well

Additionally the towns of Garforth and Micklefield might not be huge, but they're big enough to hustify regular services to both Leeds and York, so Metro oversight would be entirely sensible and justified.

Furthermore York itself is a major economic and cultural hub for the Vale of York, and beyond, extending over much of North Yorkshire and part of East Yorkshire too. Any decision making affecting York is often going to affect its hinterland as well and especially where local transport is concerned. So if York was to be added to West Yorkshire then the Vale of York would need to be added with it. At which point you no longer have a Metro region but a smaller version of traditional Yorkshire, which of course dates back to a time before there were any properly big towns at all. And any focus on the rather different needs of the Metro area compared with York/Vale of York is lost. It's a bad idea.

if the vale of York is centred on York as you say, there's no reason why it's decision making couldn't remain focused on York. As I've said previously, there's no practical reason why you couldn't have oversight of services between Leeds and York undertaken by Metro with fares and local services into East and North Yorkshire dealt with by a more York/Vale of York focused organisation.

It's also worth noting that the legislation which allows for the creation of Combined Authorities specifically rules out any overlaps between them where they happen to be adjacent. Clearly the intention is that CAs will look after their own areas but there is nothing preventing them from co-operating to deal with cross-boundary issues. Indeed an agreement to do just that already exists between West Yorkshire and York & North Yorkshire CAs with an intention clearly expressed that such an agreement should also be concluded with Hull & East Yorkshire as soon as that newly created CA has got people appointed to the necessary positions.

This cooperation is lovely, but I suspect that passengers are more interestedin the sort of fares products that Metro provides.

This thread was clearly born of the ongoing frustration at the relatively expensive rail fares between Leeds and York. But yet another re-organisation of local government structures is not the way to resolve the issue. I suspect the way forward will not only need the co-operation of the two CAs concerned but also GBR as and when that finally gets up and running. And remember also that any CA's transport remit is not solely about public transport, it also includes a wider responsibility for general traffic management meaning they will inevitably become involved with local district councils in road improvement schemes with all the budgetary implications that implies.

I know thart Government tends to see passengers as a big amorphous blob that is prepared to cough up whatever it's told, however fares are an important factor for people and always will be. But it's not just straightforward fares that are the issue. Metro includes products such as rover cards, metrocards etc that would greatly benefit York residents then travelling into West Yorkshire.

Just because legislation and current institutions aren't perfectly configured now, is no reason to hobble residents of York and West Yorkshire with an inadequate transport system for ever. If a way can be found to overlap the metro area with York, it would greatly benefit passengers across the area.

 

[IanXC]

It should be remembered that York was involved in the Leeds City Region for some time, so there is a clear economic link between the two.

City of York Council was only involved with the Leeds City Region because the rest of North Yorkshire hadn't come to agreement about devolved affairs. Now that said agreements are in place it makes no sense for there to be any ongoing involvement.

Is council tax in West Yorkshire much higher than York in order to subsidise rail fares within West Yorkshire?

Are the cheaper fares in West Yorks definitely subsidised by council tax, and not central Government?

I also think you will find it is more that people from places like West Yorks are wanting to come to York far more than the other way round!

Council Tax (band D)

Wakefield £2149.50
York £2,158.93
Leeds £2,160.90
Bradford £2,219.65
Calderdale £2,285.28
Kirklees £2312.17
North Yorkshire £2,367.42

Which makes an interesting comparison - at a glance there seems to be a strong correlation with how rural a council's area is.

From a historical point of view, it seems odd that York should be divided from its county hinterland. Surely joining Metro would see it reasserting its rightful place of influence in the West Riding.

Given that the immediate hinterland of York is no longer is West Yorkshire, I would suggest the current arrangements reflect this much more accurately than was the case historically. York and North Yorkshire Combined Authority surely reflects how the immediate area around York looks towards it, rather than Leeds, much better than was the case when West Yorkshire's boundary was much closer to York.

Additionally the towns of Garforth and Micklefield might not be huge, but they're big enough to hustify regular services to both Leeds and York, so Metro oversight would be entirely sensible and justified.

That sounds rather extra-territorial to me. Why should West Yorkshire CA have any power over journeys from, for instance, Garforth to York. Why would that make any more sense that York and North Yorkshire CA having oversight of journeys from York to Garforth?

 

[Ben427]

Rail fares to York I suspect are, as with many fares, set to keep demand at acceptable levels.

City of York was never going to be part of the WYCA, they were always and still are a non consistent member.

The old LEP had the geography of the Leeds City Region which includes Harrogate but from memory not included York. Harrogate area is far more economically integrated with Leeds, York somewhat less so.

 

[yorksrob]

City of York Council was only involved with the Leeds City Region because the rest of North Yorkshire hadn't come to agreement about devolved affairs. Now that said agreements are in place it makes no sense for there to be any ongoing involvement.



Council Tax (band D)

Wakefield £2149.50
York £2,158.93
Leeds £2,160.90
Bradford £2,219.65
Calderdale £2,285.28
Kirklees £2312.17
North Yorkshire £2,367.42

Which makes an interesting comparison - at a glance there seems to be a strong correlation with how rural a council's area is.



Given that the immediate hinterland of York is no longer is West Yorkshire, I would suggest the current arrangements reflect this much more accurately than was the case historically. York and North Yorkshire Combined Authority surely reflects how the immediate area around York looks towards it, rather than Leeds, much better than was the case when West Yorkshire's boundary was much closer to York.



That sounds rather extra-territorial to me. Why should West Yorkshire CA have any power over journeys from, for instance, Garforth to York. Why would that make any more sense that York and North Yorkshire CA having oversight of journeys from York to Garforth?

You make it sound as though people from York and its surrounds have a huge amount of control over transport services in its area. High fares suggest that it doesn't.

Why should York residents who regularly travel to Leeds and West Yorkshire have minimal influence over this transport corridor which is clearly important to them. Even worse, why should they miss out on the excellent metro products that their near neighbours in WYorks enjoy ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2025 ==

Rail fares to York I suspect are, as with many fares, set to keep demand at acceptable levels.

City of York was never going to be part of the WYCA, they were always and still are a non consistent member.

The old LEP had the geography of the Leeds City Region which includes Harrogate but from memory not included York. Harrogate area is far more economically integrated with Leeds, York somewhat less so.

It did include York.

 

[IanXC]

You make it sound as though people from York and its surrounds have a huge amount of control over transport services in its area. High fares suggest that it doesn't.

Why should York residents who regularly travel to Leeds and West Yorkshire have minimal influence over this transport corridor which is clearly important to them. Even worse, why should they miss out on the excellent metro products that their near neighbours in WYorks enjoy ?

Yes there are differences, but the devolution settlement is very much a work in progress, particularly in rail. Elected Mayors are set to be statutory consultees for GBR.

Put it the other way around, why should residents of York and North Yorkshire accept oversight of their public services by the elected representatives of West Yorkshire, to the exclusion of their own elected representatives?

 

[yorksrob]

Yes there are differences, but the devolution settlement is very much a work in progress, particularly in rail. Elected Mayors are set to be statutory consultees for GBR.

Put it the other way around, why should residents of York and North Yorkshire accept oversight of their public services by the elected representatives of West Yorkshire, to the exclusion of their own elected representatives?

I don't think there's any plausible scenario of York taking part in WY Metro where their elected representatives wouldn't have a say over Metro matters. If the legislation doesn't currently allow that, it ought to be amended.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I don't think there's any plausible scenario of York taking part in WY Metro where their elected representatives wouldn't have a say over Metro matters. If the legislation doesn't currently allow that, it ought to be amended.

Why amend legislation just to deal with a single ticketing flow. Have a look at York's ODM matrix: https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/odm/gbr/?dest=all&string_out=Yor It is true that both Leeds and York are second on each other's list with London being top in both cases. But from York the next most important destination in West Yorkshire is Bradford in 24th place! That's behind both Manchester and Sheffield as well as Liverpool and Hull. It's also behind multiple ECML stations and even more telling it's behind no less than 9 stations in North Yorkshire. And the grand total for those 9 exceeds the total for Leeds. So the idea that Leeds is the pre-eminent destination for York departees just isn't true, they're going to many different places most of which are not in West Yorkshire.

In reality for local government to exist there have to be divisions to allow for effective administration of local affairs. And geography is inevitably the key starting point in drawing up those divisions. Boundaries cannot be avoided. As mentioned upthread West Yorkshire Metro is a highly urbanised area and transport policies must be geared to suit the communities within it. Those needs are bound to be different to those of York and the Vale of York. Bringing them together will make poor decision making much more likely. And York really is too far from the urban sprawl that is West Yorkshire to be considered a part of it. It simply isn't.

Now there does exist another transport body which might have been useful in dealing with this matter, Transport for the North. Early on among all its ambitious calls for significant upgrades to the whole transport network in the North it also wanted to create fare zones across all its patch to rebalance ticketing costs to passengers. However that organisation was quickly cut down to size by HMG with much of its budget cut such that it is now as good as invisible to the general public. It seems unlikely that it will have much impact on planning matters going forward. Devolution to the regions, for good or bad, is very much going down the CA path, you'd better get used to it.

 

[yorksrob]

Why amend legislation just to deal with a single ticketing flow. Have a look at York's ODM matrix: https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/odm/gbr/?dest=all&string_out=Yor It is true that both Leeds and York are second on each other's list with London being top in both cases. But from York the next most important destination in West Yorkshire is Bradford in 24th place! That's behind both Manchester and Sheffield as well as Liverpool and Hull. It's also behind multiple ECML stations and even more telling it's behind no less than 9 stations in North Yorkshire. And the grand total for those 9 exceeds the total for Leeds. So the idea that Leeds is the pre-eminent destination for York departees just isn't true, they're going to many different places most of which are not in West Yorkshire.

In reality for local government to exist there have to be divisions to allow for effective administration of local affairs. And geography is inevitably the key starting point in drawing up those divisions. Boundaries cannot be avoided. As mentioned upthread West Yorkshire Metro is a highly urbanised area and transport policies must be geared to suit the communities within it. Those needs are bound to be different to those of York and the Vale of York. Bringing them together will make poor decision making much more likely. And York really is too far from the urban sprawl that is West Yorkshire to be considered a part of it. It simply isn't.

Now there does exist another transport body which might have been useful in dealing with this matter, Transport for the North. Early on among all its ambitious calls for significant upgrades to the whole transport network in the North it also wanted to create fare zones across all its patch to rebalance ticketing costs to passengers. However that organisation was quickly cut down to size by HMG with much of its budget cut such that it is now as good as invisible to the general public. It seems unlikely that it will have much impact on planning matters going forward. Devolution to the regions, for good or bad, is very much going down the CA path, you'd better get used to it.

It really doesn't matter to me, as a passenger, whether York is grafted onto WYCA, or whether (more likely IMO) some way is found of enabling those bits of the North and East CA that neighbour the Metro area, to be provided with a way to participate in the public transport functions of Metro, so that their passengers can reap the benefits.

I'm sure with some thought, and maybe a bit of legislative tweaking, a solution could be found to enable this to happen.

Some on here seem to be wedded to the current ridiculous and satisfactory situation, just fulfil their ideological belief of what a combined authority boundary should look like, in spite of the resultant problems for passengers. They ought to know that local government exists to serve its constituents, not to create fiefdoms.

 

[deltic08]

I cannot remember if these tickets were introduced before boundary changes or after 1974 when Harrogate was moved from West Yorkshire into North Yorkshire but they were called Bullseye tickets centred on Leeds. The outer band included Harrogate, York, Selby, Skipton and Marsden. As I commuted from Harrogate to Leeds for six years whilst at university this was a ticket for me costing £2.50 for seven days. The daily return ticket from Harrogate to Leeds was £0.68p so even using a Bullseye ticket for weekdays was a saving. Moreso as later on my course, I had to attend on Saturdays and Sundays and overnight.
Occasionally, I would have a long lunch or an afternoon free and would be able to travel to Selby to photograph Deltics on East Coast expresses, Ilkley, Skipton, Bradford FS on DMUs, Wakefield behind Deltics and Marsden for free as it was a weekly Rover ticket.
Can't we have a similar ticket for commuters to include York as it used to be?

 

[stevieinselby]

Why should York residents who regularly travel to Leeds and West Yorkshire have minimal influence over this transport corridor which is clearly important to them. Even worse, why should they miss out on the excellent metro products that their near neighbours in WYorks enjoy ?

You might just as well ask the same question about residents of Kent, Surrey, Hampshire, Berkshire, Hertfordshire and Essex who regularly travel into Greater London but have no influence over the transport policies that will affect them when they do so, and don't have access to the excellent metro products that their near neighbours enjoy...

 

[Backroom_boy]

Co-incidentally, the retirement of the METRO brand has just been announced.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

I think I read that in the 1970s boundary change proposals that Harrogate also probably Ripon was originally to be placed within Leeds MBC therefore West Yorks then this was subsequently dropped then the Harrogate area got transferred from the old West Riding into the newly created North Yorkshire.

The Harrogate area being in Leeds MBC as proposed would have benefited it being inside the WY Metro area.

I were thinking the other time, if it wasn't for the "Tadcaster gap" bit of NY bordering between Leeds MBC and the City of York, that if the Tadcaster area was placed in Leeds MBC back in 1974 then the City of York today would border West Yorkshire & therefore much closer to the Metro area.


Now there is a Y&NY combined authority, which of course would not be quite the same as urban WY & SY, does anyone reckon there might be some sort of transport integration with the larger centres of North Yorks - York, Harrogate & Scarborough?

As Ripon & Harrogate have frequent modern buses to Leeds, there might be better links proposed between Harrogate-York-Scarborough or across North Yorks. Maybe not as comprehensive as WY & SY as NY is largely rural.

 

[yorksrob]

You might just as well ask the same question about residents of Kent, Surrey, Hampshire, Berkshire, Hertfordshire and Essex who regularly travel into Greater London but have no influence over the transport policies that will affect them when they do so, and don't have access to the excellent metro products that their near neighbours enjoy...

Well, of course residents of those areas did have Network SouthEast in their corner, developing useful products such as travel cards and network cards in conjunction with London, so those areas do perhaps illustrate that "cross border" cooperation can work. Of course, York is a lot more similar in size and economy to its WYorks neighbours, so one umbrella arrangement would be more suitable in that case.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 May 2025 ==

Co-incidentally, the retirement of the METRO brand has just been announced.

Perhaps the dropping of "West Yorkshire" from the brand name might make cross border involvement easier politically.