North Wales Metro - Update?

[D.L.P.R.]

“METRO IS GO” with Network North Wales | GOV.WALES

Ambitious transport plan to drive economic growth unveiled.

www.gov.wales

Apologies if there is another open Thread where this should be moved.

 

[positron]

Particularly interesting is the seemingly short term plan to introduce pay as you go ticketing to the area. It's had issues in the south east of Wales but overall seems to be working well (based on what TfW have been saying). It'll be interesting to see how it integrates or doesn't with any future PAYG ticketing in Liverpool.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That looks like very good news if it goes ahead. And a few things there surprise me. I'd also note from the OP's link:

Upon completion of rail line works at Padeswood, increase train services between Wrexham and Bidston to 2 trains per hour within the next three years, ahead of the introduction of 4 trains per hour that will run direct between Wrexham and Liverpool by 2035.

I'm assuming the by 2035 aim of 4tph Wrexham-Liverpool means, 2tph via Bidston and 2tph via Chester/Runcorn? I wonder what they plan to do in order to run the Borderlands line services right into Liverpool, as presumably you'd need bi-mode electric trains to do that. Is any other new infrastructure required?

The existing Borderlands Line will also be renamed the Wrexham – Liverpool line.

That seems a bit pointless, and also potentially confusing considering that via Chester could well be the faster route from Wrexham to Liverpool.

 

[tigermonstera]

This tweet shows off the Network North Wales logo: https://x.com/transport_wales/status/1925496484805374117, seems in-line with the South Wales Metro logo! I wonder if these will be used on Buses when Franchising begins?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This tweet shows off the Network North Wales logo: https://x.com/transport_wales/status/1925496484805374117, seems in-line with the South Wales Metro logo!

I think they could possibly have come up with a shorter name. Network North Wales does not role off the tongue easily or sound in any way snappy or cool. And especially with the requirement to print the name in both languages, the logo just looks to me like it's drowning in a sea of text.

 

[positron]

I'm assuming the by 2035 aim of 4tph Wrexham-Liverpool means, 2tph via Bidston and 2tph via Chester/Runcorn? I wonder what they plan to do in order to run the Borderlands line services right into Liverpool, as presumably you'd need bi-mode electric trains to do that. Is any other new infrastructure required?

I would expect the 4tph to be all on the bidston line. I suspect the plan would be to procure some class 777s with battery's that would allow them to directly operate into Liverpool. Perhaps even have merseyrail operating them tbh.

As for the logo I doubt that's what actually ends up on the trains and busses. South Wales metro has had a few logos in it's time and the one nowadays is a very simple icon with the word Metro I would expect something similar.

 

[Russel]

Unless I've missed it, I can't see anything about the Conwy Valley... Shame.

 

[Chris125]

I suspect the plan would be to procure some class 777s with battery's that would allow them to directly operate into Liverpool. Perhaps even have merseyrail operating them tbh.

2035 is a decade away, realistically it's just an aspiration subject to money, politics and practicalities.

 

[WAB]

Unless I've missed it, I can't see anything about the Conwy Valley... Shame.

You’d not get much return on the cost of a second unit and crew for the Conwy Valley line… there’s probably a much better case for filling in the gaps with TrawsCymru buses but the politics would probably be too much to overcome.

 

[tigermonstera]

I would expect the 4tph to be all on the bidston line. I suspect the plan would be to procure some class 777s with battery's that would allow them to directly operate into Liverpool. Perhaps even have merseyrail operating them tbh.

As for the logo I doubt that's what actually ends up on the trains and busses. South Wales metro has had a few logos in it's time and the one nowadays is a very simple icon with the word Metro I would expect something similar.

The North Wales Transport Commission's final report from 2023 (available here) goes into a fair bit of detail about the Wrexham-Bidston/Liverpool Line between pages 26 and 31 (the entire report is worth a read in light of today's announcement).

Notably:

Merseyrail

We have heard from stakeholders how close collaboration with the Liverpool City
Region and Merseyrail is important to ensure provision of an integrated multi-operator
service network. On this basis, we recommend strengthened collaborative working with
both as proposals on the Borderlands Line are developed and implemented. This will
maximise the value of the Borderlands Line, and integration with the wider regional rail
network including access to Liverpool.

Some stakeholders have also stated that the Borderlands Line should be electrified. The
alternative is the use of battery electric multiple units. Merseyrail is introducing Class
777/1 Battery Electric Multiple Units to their network and for access to Liverpool, the
Borderlands Line could use the same or similar stock.

Charging points or sections of third rail electrification would be needed on the
Borderlands Line to recharge the Class 777/1s. The Commission supports electrification,
including the use of battery powered trains, of the Borderlands Line in a form that
would allow access to Liverpool.

 

[Cardiff123]

The cynic in me thinks it's no coincidence that this has been announced with 1 year to go until the next Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament) election on 7 May 2026.

Has any UK Government funding been announced for Network Rail, who are responsible for the infrastructure in North Wales, to carry out any enhancements?

The difference with the South Wales Metro, was that the Welsh Government took ownership of the Core Valley Lines off Network Rail, secured EU funding for the project, and managed the CVL upgrade and electrification themselves.

 

[tigermonstera]

New video on Facebook giving an overview of the project, and some extra info:
- "New Metro and Network North Wales visuals will appear on trains, stations, and buses."
- "Over five years, we'll deliver even more new trains and build new stations."
- "Beyond 2035, we'll build on this ambition developing Metro-style services south of Wrexham exploring tram-train links to key settlements and build more new stations. We'll improve connections between North and South Wales by electrifying and upgrading the Marches line."

 

[Cardiff123]

The cynic in me thinks it's no coincidence that this has been announced with 1 year to go until the next Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament) election on 7 May 2026.

Has any UK Government funding been announced for Network Rail, who are responsible for the infrastructure in North Wales, to carry out any enhancements?

The difference with the South Wales Metro, was that the Welsh Government took ownership of the Core Valley Lines off Network Rail, secured EU funding for the project, and managed the CVL upgrade and electrification themselves.

As I said, there's lots of "vision" and "ambition" in this announcement today, timed to coincide with the upcoming Senedd election campaign, but none of the new stations or infrastructure upgrades "announced" today will happen unless

1) UK Government, specifically the Treasury, allocates funding to Network Rail to carry out the upgrades

Or 2) Control and funding of Network Rail in Wales is devolved to Welsh Government, with consequential Barnett formula funding, as in Scotland.

Or 3) Welsh Government take ownership of the Wales & Borders infrastructure, as they've done with the Core Valley Lines, and get consequential Barnett funding for it.

Have TfW been given funding to order more trains for North Wales, beyond what has already been ordered and paid for?

Without one of those three options happening, this will remain a set of aspirations that will never happen.

 

[Russel]

You’d not get much return on the cost of a second unit and crew for the Conwy Valley line… there’s probably a much better case for filling in the gaps with TrawsCymru buses but the politics would probably be too much to overcome.

Even a bus at opposite hours to the train would be of benefit, even if just seasonally, over the summer, but it looks like even that is too much to ask.

Without one of those three options happening, this will remain a set of aspirations that will never happen.

As with the recent Yorkshire proposals, I predict in 10 years time, other than a couple of extra services, I doubt much will have changed.

 

[childwallblues]

The renaming of the Borderlands Line is stupid. It gives the impression that the line runs direct in to Liverpool when in fact you are changing at a station which appears to be in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Tremzinho]

4 trains an hour seems excessive for the route, particularly as both Shotton and Wrexham are also supposed to be getting services to Liverpool via Runcorn which will be faster.

The renaming of the Borderlands Line is stupid. It gives the impression that the line runs direct in to Liverpool when in fact you are changing at a station which appears to be in the middle of nowhere.

If they're not planning to use battery 777s to run through to Liverpool, then this frequency is totally insane.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

4 trains an hour seems excessive for the route, particularly as both Shotton and Wrexham are also supposed to be getting services to Liverpool via Runcorn which will be faster.


If they're not planning to use battery 777s to run through to Liverpool, then this frequency is totally insane.

IRRC James Price, the TfW CEO told a Senedd Committee recently that the plan was indeed to use Merseyrail 777s and run them around something called the loop in Liverpool. I'm from south Wales so I've no idea what that actually means!

 

[Dr Day]

Have TfW been given funding to order more trains for North Wales, beyond what has already been ordered and paid for?

In addition to one-off capital funding for any necessary infrastructure interventions like level crossing upgrades, there is still the question of funding ongoing net operating costs.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

It seems the 230s are a temporary stopgap solution until they get replaced by TfW livered 777s (unless Merseyrail partners with TfW to run their 777s along Borderlands line) and the 197s moved elsewhere. More likely than the 230s being converted into 484s to run on third rail to Liverpool.

It would be interesting to see something different like white-red 777s running underground in Liverpool other than the usual yellow ones.

 

[John R]

Let’s hope the reliability of the battery 777s improves prior to any decision to use them on the route.

@Tomos y Tanc - the most cursory of glances at a Liverpool railway map, particularly in relation to services from Bidston will show clearly what the loop is.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The North Wales Transport Commission's final report from 2023 (available here) goes into a fair bit of detail about the Wrexham-Bidston/Liverpool Line between pages 26 and 31 (the entire report is worth a read in light of today's announcement).

4 trains an hour seems excessive for the route, particularly as both Shotton and Wrexham are also supposed to be getting services to Liverpool via Runcorn which will be faster.

That was my first thought too. Reading a bit more detail in the report @tigermonstera linked to, it seems they are proposing 4tph Wrexham-Bidston but only 2tph of those will continue to Liverpool. They are also proposing linespeed increases to reduce the Wrexham-Liverpool journey time to 1 hour. That implies Wrexham-Bidston would go down from the current just over 60 minutes to 40 minutes. That seems ambitious to me - I can only guess that perhaps they are thinking of running some trains semi-fast to achieve those times.

They are also suggesting improving Shotton station and moving the Borderlands platforms further North to create an easy interchange with the North Wales line for Liverpool-North Wales coast journeys. That perhaps explains where they think passengers for the 4tph will come from. By the way they are also suggesting 4tph to Holyhead - which likewise seems to me excessive. I could imagine 4tph to Llandudno Junction would work, but beyond that?

 

[Llandudno]

That was my first thought too. Reading a bit more detail in the report @tigermonstera linked to, it seems they are proposing 4tph Wrexham-Bidston but only 2tph of those will continue to Liverpool. They are also proposing linespeed increases to reduce the Wrexham-Liverpool journey time to 1 hour. That implies Wrexham-Bidston would go down from the current just over 60 minutes to 40 minutes. That seems ambitious to me - I can only guess that perhaps they are thinking of running some trains semi-fast to achieve those times.

They are also suggesting improving Shotton station and moving the Borderlands platforms further North to create an easy interchange with the North Wales line for Liverpool-North Wales coast journeys. That perhaps explains where they think passengers for the 4tph will come from. By the way they are also suggesting 4tph to Holyhead - which likewise seems to me excessive. I could imagine 4tph to Llandudno Junction would work, but beyond that?

4 trains per hour to Holyhead, is Angela Rayner building the promised 1.2 million new homes next to Ty Croes Station….!!

Birmingham - Leeds 1 train per hour
Birmingham - Bristol 1 train per hour
Bangor - Holyhead 4 trains per hour

Bonkers!
But no need to worry as it won’t ever happen like most of the pie in the sky proposals in the report!

 

[krus_aragon]

4 trains per hour to Holyhead, is Angela Rayner building the promised 1.2 million new homes next to Ty Croes Station….!!

Birmingham - Leeds 1 train per hour
Birmingham - Bristol 1 train per hour
Bangor - Holyhead 4 trains per hour

Bonkers!
But no need to worry as it won’t ever happen like most of the pie in the sky proposals in the report!

At least the metro announcement is limiting things to just "50% more services across the North Wales mainline" for now, i. e. going to 3tph as far as Llandudno Junction.

 

[Cambrian359]

The cynic in me thinks it's no coincidence that this has been announced with 1 year to go until the next Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament) election on 7 May 2026.

Has any UK Government funding been announced for Network Rail, who are responsible for the infrastructure in North Wales, to carry out any enhancements?

The difference with the South Wales Metro, was that the Welsh Government took ownership of the Core Valley Lines off Network Rail, secured EU funding for the project, and managed the CVL upgrade and electrification themselves.

I Don’t think your being cynical given how many times some of this stuff has been announced and re announced or versions of it.
Particularly as some aspects should have already been in operation by now such as an increase in mainline services including Liverpool-Llandudno & Manchester-Bangor/holyhead, yes I’m aware there’s been a pandemic and delays/issues but don’t act like it’s new stuff or your bringing it forward!
How many times have new stations been announced? And how many times per year can north wales electrification plans(of any sort) be announced!
All this money spent on branding and PR just for politicians to make great sounding announcements…..again…..until the next time!
Sorry for the rant but I do think action speaks louder than words..and all we keep hearing is words!!

 

[I'm here now]

4 trains per hour to Holyhead, is Angela Rayner building the promised 1.2 million new homes next to Ty Croes Station….!!

Birmingham - Leeds 1 train per hour
Birmingham - Bristol 1 train per hour
Bangor - Holyhead 4 trains per hour

Bonkers!
But no need to worry as it won’t ever happen like most of the pie in the sky proposals in the report!

4 local, 1 express according to the report. Lots of big boxes round stations so shouldn’t be too difficult in any sense.

 

[positron]

That was my first thought too. Reading a bit more detail in the report @tigermonstera linked to, it seems they are proposing 4tph Wrexham-Bidston but only 2tph of those will continue to Liverpool.

It seems to be a 2 phase plan, initially it's proposed to be 2tph continuing but I think in the by 2035 category they said running a full 4tph through to Liverpool.

 

[AllWork]

I am genuinely lost at the proposal here. Not that I can’t see the UK Government (Union Connectivity/previous government) perspective but from a Welsh Government view this is surely undoing all the North-South integration work so far?

To me it makes more sense to focus on the Wrexham-Shotton part of the line (terminating at Neston where Merseyrail can crack on with services to Liverpool) and massively improving Shotton to make sure
there are interchanges at Shotton and Wrexham General.

The extension of improvements to Liverpool will surely just drive people to work there and, similarly, people to move out to Wales - driving up house prices etc. Isn’t this one of those situations where the economic benefits flow to the larger agglomeration not the other way around?

So from a Welsh Government perspective doesn’t this just run counter to their general plans (future generations etc)?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

You could look at it the other way round: If people from North Wales commute into Liverpool, that means that wages paid in Liverpool are brought into Wales. Liverpool also benefits from having a higher commutable population, which could allow more specialised and higher paid industries to develop.

Looking around London - the obvious example - lots of places that are outside London but with easy train links to London and therefore a high number of people commuting to London to work appear to have benefitted and become prosperous.

 

[AllWork]

You could look at it the other way round: If people from North Wales commute into Liverpool, that means that wages paid in Liverpool are brought into Wales. Liverpool also benefits from having a higher commutable population, which could allow more specialised and higher paid industries to develop.

Looking around London - the obvious example - lots of places that are outside London but with easy train links to London and therefore a high number of people commuting to London to work appear to have benefitted and become prosperous.

Oh absolutely. That’s what I was trying to say in that I can see the argument from a UK perspective. It just seems to run counter to Welsh Government’s prior action which has been about joining up within Wales and encouraging the creation of jobs in Wales (vs commuting out).

 

[chiltern trev]

It seems the 230s are a temporary stopgap solution until they get replaced by TfW livered 777s (unless Merseyrail partners with TfW to run their 777s along Borderlands line) and the 197s moved elsewhere. More likely than the 230s being converted into 484s to run on third rail to Liverpool.

It would be interesting to see something different like white-red 777s running underground in Liverpool other than the usual yellow ones.

The class 777 option should be exercised in full.

Have Merseyrail run Wrexham Bidston Liverpool as an integrated Merseyrail service with TfW funding.

Use the other extra 777s for more 8 cars and other routes (Preston, Wigan, Warrington Central, etc.). Keep as one big 777 fleet. Would need funding assistance from Northern etc. But going off topic here.