Produced an expired Railcard

[John R]

The problem I see, is even if the entry barrier staff realised the railcard had expired, because it was before 05:30 in the morning they might not have been able to do a ticket sale.

Customer hasn't yet entered so can't be penaltied for travelling, they might be able to sell an excess, (would you like to buy a new ticket at about £97, or a £35 railcard to go with your already bought ticket). Dumb choice offered.

If gate staff can't sell railcard and ticket office is closed until 6am, not likely to be much denying of travel, especially if there was negligible staff on duty at that hour. I think a non-confrontational approach of please buy new railcard as soon as you can, is possibility that cannot be discounted.

How about “Your ticket is invalid, so you cannot board. Either purchase a railcard online now, or go to a ticket machine and purchase a new ticket for your journey. The machine is over there. Or you can buy a new ticket online. Your choice.”

 

[enyoueffsea]

The problem I see, is even if the entry barrier staff realised the railcard had expired, because it was before 05:30 in the morning they might not have been able to do a ticket sale.

Customer hasn't yet entered so can't be penaltied for travelling, they might be able to sell an excess, (would you like to buy a new ticket at about £97, or a £35 railcard to go with your already bought ticket). Dumb choice offered.

If gate staff can't sell railcard and ticket office is closed until 6am, not likely to be much denying of travel, especially if there was negligible staff on duty at that hour. I think a non-confrontational approach of please buy new railcard as soon as you can, is possibility that cannot be discounted.

It’s a reasonable possibility, but:

1. OP’s friend will have no proof of this conversation or able to evidence they were given permission to travel.
2. It’s extremely unlikely the same thing happened at Preston.
3. The OP’s friend then had a number of hours on the train to purchase the railcard and failed to do so.

 

[AlterEgo]

The problem I see, is even if the entry barrier staff realised the railcard had expired, because it was before 05:30 in the morning they might not have been able to do a ticket sale.

Customer hasn't yet entered so can't be penaltied for travelling, they might be able to sell an excess, (would you like to buy a new ticket at about £97, or a £35 railcard to go with your already bought ticket). Dumb choice offered.

If gate staff can't sell railcard and ticket office is closed until 6am, not likely to be much denying of travel, especially if there was negligible staff on duty at that hour. I think a non-confrontational approach of please buy new railcard as soon as you can, is possibility that cannot be discounted.

So your position is that, assuming Avanti does barrier the 0530 and has gateline staff in that early (I’m sceptical they do, can anyone confirm?) that the gate line’s job here is:

- check people’s tickets
- if it’s invalid they don’t sell a new one
- they let people on the train anyway, or regardless of whether the ticket is valid

Seems very unlikely to me although not impossible. But to claim that Northern at Preston said exactly the same thing in the morning rush hour doesn’t seem like something they’d do. It seems much more likely that on a journey like that one never gets a ticket check until the Blackpool South train, at which point the traveller comes a cropper.

 

[Moonchild1]

I'm going to try and tackle as many of the questions as possible - let me know if I miss anything.

"It sounds like a terrible experience and set of circumstances for her, but ultimately, it is her error and she’ll need to accept that and face the consequences."

100% and she accepts this, and attempted to pay at the time, but wasn't able to. It was particularly traumatic (which is why I’m tackling this rather than her to try and remove emotion from the answers).

“It’ll be a standard case of apology, accepting fault and requesting a settlement.”

Thank you – I think that was what I was trying to get to is the correct response.

"Also noting the post above, that settlement will likely include any other fares where she accidentally applied the railcard whilst expired."

The route was 05:30 Euston-Preston (Avanti) 08:41 Preston – St Annes-On-The-Sea £29:30 (plus Trainline Booking Fee I’ve ignored). The railcard expired 29 Aug 2024. There were 6 previous journeys taken since then. The new railcard was purchased on Trainpal (my instructions as was discounted – but done that evening).

“She had over 2 hours on the train after she was instructed to renew, and agreed to renew, her Railcard, and did not do so. She could have easily purchased a digital Railcard online during that time.”

She agrees, but she didn’t until that evening. The two guards who let her through at Euston did not instruct her to purchase railcard there and then (direct quote from them “it’s fine let her on”) – this I know will end up being irrelevant, but just adding. Her ticket was scanned at Preston but they did not say anything. This was at the ‘Northern Block’.

When she was challenged on her Northern Train and she showed the railcard and realised it was expired she said “can I buy a new railcard now and apply to the new ticket” and was told no.

“Both Euston and Preston gatelines saw a 4 month old railcard, noticed it was 4 months old, and specifically said to your friend "that's ok. just promise us you'll buy a railcard at some point today?"

For clarity – Euston saw railcard was expired and just let her through as train was about to go, they didn’t use those words. Preston just saw the ticket.

“I'm actually not so sure about this if handled correctly. Seeing ones parent for the last time is something where ones head is going to be all over the place and reasonable people will understand that railcards are not going to be part of the agenda.

On the other hand credibility (both factual and emotional) is absolutely crucial for something like that. There are plenty of people who would either claim this when it wasn't the case or even worse see it as an opportunity to get away with a completely unrelated ticketing issue. So far this thread isn't really screaming credibility.”

Thank you – this is a key point. I’m 100% here to provide as much factual information as possible – obviously she can provide her father has subsequently passed away (last week). Agree may not look credible but all can be proven – and apologies as I appreciate the importance of factual information on here as simply want to help her tackle with the minimal amount of issues. This is not her priority at this moment but I know it can escalate if not tackled urgently, I’m not best friends with Northern Rail! Please keep asking if you need any specifics clarified.

“Possibly. That would also rely on this being a one off and no other tickets purchased during the 4 month period of the card expiring.”

As per above – which clouds matters. The facts as per this trip are as per above and true and provable. However the previous journeys may make these irrelevant in their eyes. Therefore we’d like to shut this down as painlessly as possible. I promise you it’s entirely possible for a 24 year old to not pick up that her railcard is out of date (especially if a 3 year railcard) and Trainpal does not alert you if it was going to expire.

“There isn't a £100 limit on Apple Pay. The £100 limit only applies to physical bankcards. Apple pay is different because biometrics are used to authenticate. There is a limit but it's something like £10,000.”

Quite simply they tried 4 times and it failed to work. There were witnesses (sadly don't now have) and this is where she broke down.

“I'm wondering if the guard tried to sell an Off Peak Single (given it was a Friday when Off Peak tickets are valid all day on Avanti set fares) which costs £85.30 or £121.90 for a return.”

She says £85.30 is possibly the figure – she remembers it being close to £100 (but not over it)

“One key thing for us is precisely what happened in respect of the railcard at both Euston and Preston. Treating each separately, who said what and in what sequence.

Also was it an e-ticket with a scannable bar code or not?
Was the expired railcard digital or not?”

It was an e-ticket with a scannable bar code, the expired railcard was digital – both on Trainline. As per above Euston picked up on the railcard and just let her through (it could have been the early time who knows”. Preston just let her through.

“How about “Your ticket is invalid, so you cannot board. Either purchase a railcard online now, or go to a ticket machine and purchase a new ticket for your journey. The machine is over there. Or you can buy a new ticket online. Your choice.””

Reading this she says she wish this had happened.

“It’s a reasonable possibility, but:

1. OP’s friend will have no proof of this conversation or able to evidence they were given permission to travel.
2. It’s extremely unlikely the same thing happened at Preston.
3. The OP’s friend then had a number of hours on the train to purchase the railcard and failed to do so.”

1. Correct in that there is no proof
2. Correct – see above she was just let through, there was no conversation about the railcard.
3. Correct in everything you say.

I think I've tackled all questions - please let me know if anything not covered.

I will clarify there was no deliberate attempt to defraud. There was willingness and (several) attempts to pay Northern Trains via Apple Pay, an offer to pay by bank transfer immediately. None of these were possible.

The facts concerning her father are all true. Hope you understand that with everything else concerning her at the moment with her father passing last week (which of course can be provided if important to a defence) you'll understand why i'm assisting. It's not her priority - but I do not want her to miss deadlines and for further escalations (and definitely not a criminal record etc). She has willingness to accept a degree of fault, and to pay the fine requested.

So what do you think the quickest and easiest way you would advise to shut this down at this time (or delay for a couple of months) with response. Yes, finances are important as well.

Ask anyway anything else that may not be clear - and thank you ALL for your input, it's appreciated.

 

[WesternLancer]

So what do you think the quickest and easiest way you would advise to shut this down at this time (or delay for a couple of months) with response. Yes, finances are important as well.

My hunch is get drafting up the apology reply using the standard format on here to ask for the matter to be resolved without court action. Re-enforce this was a genuine oversight rather than deliberate evasion. Maybe worth mentioning briefly the advice of the staff who initially advised her to board even if it can't be proved.

Get the draft checked here before sending, don't miss the deadline to reply to that letter.

Be prepared for them to find the other 6 trips with the railcard discount that weren't valid and ask for money for them too (so work out the fares for those trips at the Standard Anytime Single Fare) just so she knows what sort of money they might ask for

 

[Honestviews]

Regardless, if the amount asked for was less than this (£97 as said), it should have gone through.

Agreed it should have gone through - worth noting that although apple pay does not have a limit some retailers do limit it £100

 

[Moonchild1]

Whereas we all agree it shouldn't have been an issue, it was in this instance (several attempts made and an offer to pay there and then by transfer which I understand wasn't an option but hopefully shows a willingness). Hopefully the inspector would have noted this - there was absolute no attempt to avoid payment. I do think that is important (even if it may actually not be).
Personally I do not have an iPhone, but contactless on my android can often be a problem (but I always carry a card, but in this wasn't the case and is quite normal with the age group).

 

[SuspectUsual]

When she was challenged on her Northern Train and she showed the railcard and realised it was expired

Euston saw railcard was expired and just let her through

Be careful how your friend words her response. For example, the first statement above can’t be true if the second one is - she realised at Euston, not on the train from Preston

The new railcard was purchased on Trainpal (my instructions as was discounted – but done that evening).

Railcards purchased via Trainpal - I think - need to be activated via a ticket purchase. Has she done this? If not - question for others on here - will that prevent the railcard being “visible” to Northern and the systems they use?

 

[Egg Centric]

My hunch is get drafting up the apology reply using the standard format on here to ask for the matter to be resolved without court action. Re-enforce this was a genuine oversight rather than deliberate evasion. Maybe worth mentioning briefly the advice of the staff who initially advised her to board even if it can't be proved.

Get the draft checked here before sending, don't miss the deadline to reply to that letter.

Be prepared for them to find the other 6 trips with the railcard discount that weren't valid and ask for money for them too (so work out the fares for those trips at the Standard Anytime Single Fare) just so she knows what sort of money they might ask for

I would - very unusually - still mention the father. I would also still ask to settle out of court in the usual way.

It will probably still be the case that this is ignored and a standard out of court settlement happens - and I think this has to be priority given everything OP has said. But having mentioned the circumstances at a future time once her head is settled if OP's friend wants to then she ought to be able to approach customer services for a discretionary goodwill gesture.

 

[WesternLancer]

I would - very unusually - still mention the father. I would also still ask to settle out of court in the usual way.

It will probably still be the case that this is ignored and a standard out of court settlement happens - and I think this has to be priority given everything OP has said. But having mentioned the circumstances at a future time once her head is settled if OP's friend wants to then she ought to be able to approach customer services for a discretionary goodwill gesture.

I think this is good advice - and thanks for adding it to my suggestion. Having it 'on record' in the initial written response is a good idea, and it can be mentioned briefly without it looking like an 'excuse'. Your point is a good one IMHO.

 

[Moonchild1]

How is this?

Dear Northern Rail Revenue Enforcement Team,

Ref: XXX

I am writing this letter regarding presenting your Inspector with an expired railcard on my journey from London Euston to St Annes on Sea.

This was a genuine error in my case, as I was unaware the 16-25 Railcard had expired. At this point I had also been through London Euston (Avanti Staff) and Preston Station (Northern Rail Staff) and presented my ticket on my journey and this had not been pointed out to me or I would have immediately attempted to resolve the issue.

I have of course purchased a new railcard at the first possible opportunity (I have attached evidence of this).

After being stopped I was offered the opportunity to pay for a new ticket which I accepted and attempted to do multiple times with Apple Pay (my only payment method) which failed to work with the Northern Trains payment terminal. I offered to make immediate bank transfer payment which was rejected.

I fully accept it was my responsibility to have a valid railcard at time of travel. However, I was travelling to my home town to visit my recently diagnosed terminally ill father and this was not something that occurred to me. I found the entire experience emotionally distressing (to the extent that other passengers intervened as I was in tears throughout the entire experience). My father has since passed (death certificate also attached) and I am finding the threat of criminal conviction very much is compounding my stress during this extremely difficult time.

I fully admit the error and apologise for this, and have at all times admitted my culpability and attempted to resolve this situation at every step. As you can see I of course ensured I purchased a valid railcard at the first opportunity.

I look forward to your response,

Kind regards,

 

[WesternLancer]

How is this?

Dear Northern Rail Revenue Enforcement Team,

Ref: XXX

I am writing this letter regarding presenting your Inspector with an expired railcard on my journey from London Euston to St Annes on Sea.

This was a genuine error in my case, as I was unaware the 16-25 Railcard had expired. At this point I had also been through London Euston (Avanti Staff) and Preston Station (Northern Rail Staff) and presented my ticket on my journey and this had not been pointed out to me or I would have immediately attempted to resolve the issue.

I have of course purchased a new railcard at the first possible opportunity (I have attached evidence of this).

After being stopped I was offered the opportunity to pay for a new ticket which I accepted and attempted to do multiple times with Apple Pay (my only payment method) which failed to work with the Northern Trains payment terminal. I offered to make immediate bank transfer payment which was rejected.

I fully accept it was my responsibility to have a valid railcard at time of travel. However, I was travelling to my home town to visit my recently diagnosed terminally ill father and this was not something that occurred to me. I found the entire experience emotionally distressing (to the extent that other passengers intervened as I was in tears throughout the entire experience). My father has since passed (death certificate also attached) and I am finding the threat of criminal conviction very much is compounding my stress during this extremely difficult time.

I fully admit the error and apologise for this, and have at all times admitted my culpability and attempted to resolve this situation at every step. As you can see I of course ensured I purchased a valid railcard at the first opportunity.

I look forward to your response,

Kind regards,

I think it needs to end with a request to them. Eg a request to resolve it without prosecution for example.

I would also somewhere use a phrase like ‘I had no intention of avoiding paying the correct fare’.

 

[Moonchild1]

I think it needs to end with a request to them. Eg a request to resolve it without prosecution for example.

I would also somewhere use a phrase like ‘I had no intention of avoiding paying the correct fare’.

Thank you will do

Last two sentences amended to

"I fully admit the error and apologise for this, and have at all times admitted my culpability and attempted to resolve this situation at every step. As you can see I of course ensured I purchased a valid railcard at the first opportunity, and can only reiterate I had no intention of avoiding paying the correct fare.

I look forward to your response, and hope this can be resolved promptly and compassionately without prosecution. "

 

[SuspectUsual]

This was a genuine error in my case, as I was unaware the 16-25 Railcard had expired. At this point I had also been through London Euston (Avanti Staff) and Preston Station (Northern Rail Staff) and presented my ticket on my journey and this had not been pointed out to me or I would have immediately attempted to resolve the issue.

This isn’t what you’ve told us.

You said they noticed the railcard was expired but allowed you to travel.

You need to tell the truth if you want them to treat you favourably

 

[6Gman]

Thank you will do

Last two sentences amended to

"I fully admit the error and apologise for this, and have at all times admitted my culpability and attempted to resolve this situation at every step. As you can see I of course ensured I purchased a valid railcard at the first opportunity, and can only reiterate I had no intention of avoiding paying the correct fare.

I look forward to your response, and hope this can be resolved promptly and compassionately without prosecution. "

Sorry, but wasn't the first opportunity buying online on the train between Euston and Preston?

 

[WesternLancer]

Sorry, but wasn't the first opportunity buying online on the train between Euston and Preston?

personally I would not bring buying on line into it actually

 

[Haywain]

At this point I had also been through London Euston (Avanti Staff) and Preston Station (Northern Rail Staff) and presented my ticket on my journey and this had not been pointed out to me

I accepted and attempted to do multiple times with Apple Pay (my only payment method) which failed to work with the Northern Trains payment terminal. I offered to make immediate bank transfer payment which was rejected

These two statements seem to be shifting the blame. The first should be removed and the second should be reworded to be more neutral. I'm not sure the bit about a bank transfer should be there at all as barely any retail business would accept payment in that way.

 

[Moonchild1]

I think it needs to end with a request to them. Eg a request to resolve it without prosecution for example.

I would also somewhere use a phrase like ‘I had no intention of avoiding paying the correct fare’.

This isn’t what you’ve told us.

You said they noticed the railcard was expired but allowed you to travel.

You need to tell the truth if you want them to treat you favourably

These two statements seem to be shifting the blame. The first should be removed and the second should be reworded to be more neutral. I'm not sure the bit about a bank transfer should be there at all as barely any retail business would accept payment in that way.

Both of the last comments are completely fair - this was my interpretation of what I was told - as you know i'm trying to do this for a friend in a very difficult situation but sat down with her in front of a computer today and went through the messages posted. And saw the Trainline prices etc.

For absolute clarity - she was let through at Euston ("they hesitated but let me through without telling it was due to a railcard expiry - they spoke to each other and said "don't worry just let her on" as was borderline missing the train so she didn't know) and at Preston they scanned her through without requesting the railcard.

For absolute clarity the first time she was aware that the railcard had expired was 2 stops before St Annes when challenged.

This was my error for interpretating what I was told. Obviously it's very challenging so I'm trying to help. Everything in the letter is true. I reduced a lot of the hyperbole and tried to keep simple.
I'm going to keep the bank transfer comment as they can obviously choose to ignore but she was trying as hard as she could to pay. The company we both work for accepts bank transfers as does my hairdresser. No, I don't expect Northern Rail to, but it does I think show a willingness to do anything to settle there and then.
Appreciate this all, this is why i'm posting, it's genuinely trying to assist a good friend having the absolute toughest of times, and hope you can appreciate that there is only a couple of days to go before the deadline (she received the letter only on 20th May as was away, i'm trying to take this stress off her, so any errors are my errors).
Everything in the letter is correct, and I have run this past her.
Also, thank you.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is possible to overthink these letters. Our experience tells us these get settled basically all of the time and as long as you keep it simple it’ll be fine.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The new railcard was purchased on Trainpal (my instructions as was discounted – but done that evening).

Railcards purchased via Trainpal - I think - need to be activated via a ticket purchase. Has she done this? If not - question for others on here - will that prevent the railcard being “visible” to Northern and the systems they use?

The discounted offer price of a Digital Railcard from Trainpal (and sister company Trip.com) is indeed contingent on then buying a rail ticket from them - only after that is done will the Digital Railcard be issued.

The ticket purchased can however be the cheapest child ticket available.

I don't know about the visibility (or otherwise) of Digital Railcards from the various retailers to TOC investigation teams.

 

[WesternLancer]

Both of the last comments are completely fair - this was my interpretation of what I was told - as you know i'm trying to do this for a friend in a very difficult situation but sat down with her in front of a computer today and went through the messages posted. And saw the Trainline prices etc.

For absolute clarity - she was let through at Euston ("they hesitated but let me through without telling it was due to a railcard expiry - they spoke to each other and said "don't worry just let her on" as was borderline missing the train so she didn't know) and at Preston they scanned her through without requesting the railcard.

For absolute clarity the first time she was aware that the railcard had expired was 2 stops before St Annes when challenged.

This was my error for interpretating what I was told. Obviously it's very challenging so I'm trying to help. Everything in the letter is true. I reduced a lot of the hyperbole and tried to keep simple.
I'm going to keep the bank transfer comment as they can obviously choose to ignore but she was trying as hard as she could to pay. The company we both work for accepts bank transfers as does my hairdresser. No, I don't expect Northern Rail to, but it does I think show a willingness to do anything to settle there and then.
Appreciate this all, this is why i'm posting, it's genuinely trying to assist a good friend having the absolute toughest of times, and hope you can appreciate that there is only a couple of days to go before the deadline (she received the letter only on 20th May as was away, i'm trying to take this stress off her, so any errors are my errors).
Everything in the letter is correct, and I have run this past her.
Also, thank you.

You’re doing good work.

 

[Eyersey468]

@Moonchild1 my sincere condolences to your friend on her loss

 

[Moonchild1]

Thank you all

Regarding the new railcard - not all (but most) Trainpal offers needs a ticket bought alongside to get the discount (mine didn't) - i've checked what the case is with this and the expiry date is Mar 27 2026, exactly a year after the day so fortunately it was also activitated the same day.

Appreciate all your help, I will of course feedback what happens so you have a data point for anyone else in the future.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you all

Regarding the new railcard - not all (but most) Trainpal offers needs a ticket bought alongside to get the discount (mine didn't) - i've checked what the case is with this and the expiry date is Mar 27 2026, exactly a year after the day so fortunately it was also activitated the same day.

Appreciate all your help, I will of course feedback what happens so you have a data point for anyone else in the future.

Will be good to see how it plays out and if any impact of the extenuating circumstances ref bereavement.

Good luck to your friend who will be going through difficult times.