Prioritisation of the Welsh and English languages in Wales

[Envoy]

Wales on Line (Media Wales) recently reported on the Welsh Government’s aim to get the number of Welsh speakers up to a million - but nobody asked the English speaking majority whether or not they wished to learn Welsh. From the comments submitted by the public, it would appear that most readers are fed up to the back teeth with the constant promotion of the Welsh language.

"Welsh language minister Mark Drakeford said the bill will open doors for pupils, offer job opportunities, provide access to the rich culture of the language and allow people to use Welsh in their everyday lives. He said it would open a new chapter in the history of Welsh education".

Note that Drakeford says it will “open doors for pupils, offer job opportunities” - in other words discriminate against the non Welsh speaking majority. No wonder the majority of people in Wales are fed up with the Welsh language.

Senedd passes 'truly historic' Welsh language bill

The Welsh language education bill aims to ensure all pupils become confident Welsh speakers by the end of compulsory school

www.walesonline.co.uk

 

[Falcon1200]

Quite. I have similar feelings about those who oppose the promotion of Gaelic.

I have no objection to promoting Gaelic either, but there has to be a purpose, and a benefit. On my local line into Glasgow, every station has bilingual signs, which must have cost a bit to make and install, yet no-one, ever, uses the Gaelic name. Nor, in the 32 years of my 38 year railway career spent in Scotland, was Gaelic used for any communication.

Before I moved (from Reading) to Glasgow my colleagues said I would never be able to understand the Glasgwegian accents, however that was not an issue; The different words, just as you say, and expressions, certainly were!

 

[oldman]

I think it's only fair that some efforts are made to keep them going.

The complaint from some people in Wales is that official policy goes far beyond 'keeping Welsh going', as with Gaelic, towards defining Welsh-speaking as an official indicator of national wellbeing, alongside poverty, pollution, public safety and the like. Is it a good idea to foster division in a territory where a third of the population is not Welsh?

(The position regarding Scots is confusing, with 1.5 million (a bit less than a third) claiming to speak it, and only 1.1% to speak it at home, mainly in the NE and Northern Isles.)

 

[Envoy]

The way that TFW publish the timetables with English second and in faint type says it all about this policy of ramming the Welsh language down our throats. Click the link for the TFW timetables and then click for the Manchester to Cardiff route - where even places in England are written Welsh first in bold. Any passengers for the English towns/cities of Anwythig or Henffordd?

Timetables booklets | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

 

[Jantra]

Walking around Cardiff Central all TfW posters are bi-lingual, but I have never seen an advertising bill board in Welsh let alone a bi-lingual one, same goes with S4C TV all their adverts are in English. Does this say more about commercial realities or about how bodies that don't have to make a profit are run.

Back to Trains... There was a heated political argument a few years ago where a Welsh Government minister demanded GWR to have bi-lingual announcements on the SWA/CDF-PAD services. Basically GWR told them to get lost, as they were a UK franchise and just did English.
Imagine if Cross Country PNZ(RIP)-ABD had to do all the regional dialects and languages on that route, you'd arrive at the next station before the last announcement had finished.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I have lived in Wales for 30 odd years and sadly the Welsh language has become rather divisive over the past 5 years or so.
There is primary legislation to give equal status to both Welsh and English, but you would not know that when travelling on TfW or using TfW run stations
They seem to go out of their way to promote Welsh over English, from using bold type face for the Welsh and a slightly larger font to choosing a background colour on posters to make the English less readable or obvious.
On the new 231/756 trains the announcement first in Welsh then in English, except the 'English' pronunciation of the place names sounds totally weird, people that live in these places all their lives would never pronounce them that way.
I've nothing against the Welsh language, but when the vast majority who use the trains don't speak it, why if not for political reasons would this be their course of action?
What amuses me after a long bi-lingual announcement at Cardiff Central late at night, the station announcer has to shout in English to get people on the right train and the right platform (as if everyone has tuned off to these announcements)

It's only divisive because you think it is. For some of us its a good positive thing that we can be proud of.

Also if you've lived in Wales for 30 years thats more than enough time to pick up some basics. Hell its been 17 years since I've moved away but even I can still recognise the basics in the announcements and get the gist of what's being said.

I was not making it up, they choose white for the Welsh Text and Black for the English!
Not exactly culture wars but someone is having a laugh at the majorities expense.

Whats the issue with that exactly?

Wales on Line (Media Wales) recently reported on the Welsh Government’s aim to get the number of Welsh speakers up to a million - but nobody asked the English speaking majority whether or not they wished to learn Welsh. From the comments submitted by the public, it would appear that most readers are fed up to the back teeth with the constant promotion of the Welsh language.

I really wouldn't base policy on the lunatic comments on wales online. The comments there are often quite unhinged and detached from reality to say the least.

Note that Drakeford says it will “open doors for pupils, offer job opportunities” - in other words discriminate against the non Welsh speaking majority. No wonder the majority of people in Wales are fed up with the Welsh language.

Senedd passes 'truly historic' Welsh language bill

The Welsh language education bill aims to ensure all pupils become confident Welsh speakers by the end of compulsory school

www.walesonline.co.uk

Or reflects the fact that being bilingual also makes it easier to learn other languages too. It's a useful skill and goes well beyond just the language learned.

And go be blunt, yes for some roles someone who can speak english and welsh is preferable!

The way that TFW publish the timetables with English second and in faint type says it all about this policy of ramming the Welsh language down our throats. Click the link for the TFW timetables and then click for the Manchester to Cardiff route - where even places in England are written Welsh first in bold. Any passengers for the English towns/cities of Anwythig or Henffordd?

Timetables booklets | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

Again I've no clue what the issue is here? The English is more than readable. It's fine.

 

[Krokodil]

Wales on Line (Media Wales) recently reported on the Welsh Government’s aim to get the number of Welsh speakers up to a million - but nobody asked the English speaking majority whether or not they wished to learn Welsh. From the comments submitted by the public, it would appear that most readers are fed up to the back teeth with the constant promotion of the Welsh language.

You are not going to find moderate and representative views in the comments section of an online newspaper. They tend to be filled with ranting boomers.

That said, the top comment listed (presumably the one 'liked' the most) doesn't reflect your conclusion:

Countries which have multi language skills have higher overall education. Most of Europe speak English now as second language so having 2 languages isn't exactly a burden. Those who think it affects education obviously have no idea about the facts and are anti Welsh English settlers or from parts of Wales like Cardiff and Newport that have completely been multicultural for so long the language has almost disappeared. Most visitors to the is country on weekend breaks or holidays are fascinated by our ancient proud language and chuffed we have managed to cling on to it. Wales is a beautiful country with a rich heritage and unique culture so protecting that is an excellent thing to do. For once I'll give Drakeford a pat on the back. We all like to be critical as I am of Welsh Labour but on this matter Drakeford has done the right thing. After all we are Welsh so we should be speaking Welsh. Dutch speak Dutch and and English, so do most Scandinavian countries so 2 language skills broaden the mind and help children develop far more skills

When were the Welsh-speaking majority (as there used to be) asked their opinion on whether Welsh should be beaten out of them?

 

[Envoy]

Meanwhile - the Institute for Fiscal Studies says that Wales has the lowest education attainment of any of the UK nations.

"Last December, the OECD published the latest round of PISA tests in reading, maths and science skills. These international comparisons always prompt public debate. Most countries saw declining scores, reflecting the effects of the pandemic. In Wales, the declines were particularly large, erasing all the progress seen since 2012. This report argues that low scores in Wales are a major concern and challenge for the new First Minister".

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/major-challenges-education-wales

 

[WelshBluebird]

Meanwhile - the Institute for Fiscal Studies says that Wales has the lowest education attainment of any of the UK nations.

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/major-challenges-education-wales

And I'm sure that has everything to do with spending less than 0.002% of the Welsh Government’s budget on the Welsh language.

 

[Yew]

And I'm sure that has everything to do with spending less than 0.002% of the Welsh Government’s budget on the Welsh language.

Comparing Welsh language education spending to the entire budget of the Welsh government doesn't seem like the most reasonable comparison to make.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Comparing Welsh language education spending to the entire budget of the Welsh government doesn't seem like the most reasonable comparison to make.

It is if there's a suggestion that the government is failing on other priorities specifically because of its spending on the language, as clearly a spend of 0.002% of the governments budget is not going to have any impact at all on the wider achievement or failure of the education system at large.

This is part of a wider problem we have with analysing government spending. People just can't understand large numbers in the context of even larger numbers. To you or I, yes 46 million is a lot. But in the grand scheme of government spending its pocket change. And the redirection of it to larger government spending (like more general education) is not going to make a difference.

So am I willing to spend the coins I've found down the back of the sofa to support the language and culture of my country - of course i would be!

 

[sprunt]

Note that Drakeford says it will “open doors for pupils, offer job opportunities” - in other words discriminate against the non Welsh speaking majority.

That's just nonsense - there will be jobs that require Welsh language skills, so clearly speaking Welsh will provide the opportunity to do those jobs. It's no more discrimination than it would be for me not to get a job as a doctor because I happen not to have a medical degree.

 

[styles]

Comparing Welsh language education spending to the entire budget of the Welsh government doesn't seem like the most reasonable comparison to make.

It's either relevant, in which case it's prudent to point out how vanishingly small a % of the budget is spent on promoting the Welsh language; or it's not relevant in which case the comment posted above it discussing the performance of the Welsh education system is off-topic. Otherwise the implication is that Wales' education system is underpforming because they teach Welsh, which many of us would see as a bit of a stretch.

 

[Envoy]

A school in east Cardiff where virtually everything is supposed to be in Welsh has failed the ESTYN inspection and been put in special measures. Seems to me that these children from mainly English speaking homes are not doing well in either language.

"However, too often, teachers are not successful enough in feeding language to pupils or ensuring that they use the language in their discussions".

Welsh medium school where pupils speak English put into special measures

Pupils at a Welsh medium secondary school in Cardiff don't speak the language well enough, Estyn said

www.walesonline.co.uk

 

[Krokodil]

A school in east Cardiff where virtually everything is supposed to be in Welsh has failed the ESTYN inspection and been put in special measures. Seems to me that these children from mainly English speaking homes are not doing well in either language.

Welsh medium school where pupils speak English put into special measures

Pupils at a Welsh medium secondary school in Cardiff don't speak the language well enough, Estyn said

www.walesonline.co.uk

What does this prove? It's one school in one city. I could equally pick out a few random comprehensives in English cities and use them to claim that teaching maths causes poor outcomes or some other nonsense. Have you read the full report or just the bits the press have bothered to cover?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Its also worth adding parents are more than welcome to send their kids to an English medium school too. One where maybe the parents would be able to be more involved in their kids education and actually be able to help out with homework and the like. Actually that is one of the big issues with educational attainment in Welsh medium schools, not the schools themselves but English speaking parents not being able to help thier kid out in the same way they'd be able to with an English medium school. You'd get the same impact on a kids educational achievement if they went to an English medium school but the parent wasn't involved or interested in their kids education. There's a reason that (how much the parent is involved and interested) has such a high impact on how a child does in school.

 

[Starmill]

Not exactly culture wars but someone is having a laugh at the majorities expense.

Pretty certain that's just in your head.

 

[Yew]

It's either relevant, in which case it's prudent to point out how vanishingly small a % of the budget is spent on promoting the Welsh language; or it's not relevant in which case the comment posted above it discussing the performance of the Welsh education system is off-topic. Otherwise the implication is that Wales' education system is underpforming because they teach Welsh, which many of us would see as a bit of a stretch.

I'm sorry, but if we're talking about education spending, then the education budget is a much more appropriate thing to compare to.

 

[Richard Scott]

I have a question for @Richard Scott: are you actually Welsh, or have you migrated there? If it's the former, I'd be interested to know why you have such a dim view of the promotion of the Welsh language.

I moved there about 20 years ago but always lived close to the border and parents had friends in Wales so familiar with it from a young age. I do have an interest in languages and Welsh was actually first language other than English I was exposed to at age of 8 and was quite fascinated by it so don't have a problem with the language. My issue is that it's seen, in my perception, as hugely important and that if you're not interested then you're ignoring your Welsh heritage. A number of friends of mine feel this is the case and they are as Welsh in their lineage as the next person.
My personal opinion is the language is given far too much importance and is pushed down people's throats, afraid that is the opinion of a considerable number of people around by me. A better option would be to allow people to discover the language as part of their heritage and may find more take an interest.
This is my opinion but is shared by a lot of people around by me. I know many will disagree.
I always remember going to Norway years ago and someone saying that children are expected to learn New Norsk and Old Norsk, they get fed up and just speak English so both languages in danger of dying out (again that was one person's opinion). If you try and force things people push back, if you promote things correctly then you may make headway? I feel it's not promoted in the right way hence my concerns that currently it's counterproductive (figures on number of speakers do seem to bear this out) and a waste of money. Not interested how small that amount might be as anything wasted would be better spent elsewhere.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I'm sorry, but if we're talking about education spending, then the education budget is a much more appropriate thing to compare to.

Its still a fraction of the education spend. But no its the wider budget that's important because lots of different things could be redirected to education if wanted. This isn't a simple decision between Welsh language spending or education spending. Governments can have multiple priorities and spending plans at once.

 

[43096]

It rather sounds to me like the real issue for many on this thread is that English isn’t the language in bold. But why should it be?

Because it is the language of the majority.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

As an outsider this discussion prompted me to look at what happens elsewhere so I tried to find out about education in Switzerland. Needless to say it's a complicated issue! What stood out however is that for successful bilingualism to be achieved it requires a degree of immersion. In parts of Switzerland this is done by pupils spending extended time in a school of the "opposite" language in addition to receiving instruction in that language in their native school. Attempts are also made to deliver some lessons in other subjects in the non-native language. Could it be the real problem for Welsh education is the all-or-nothing approach which seems to be popular currently? Would it be better to promote the two languages as side-by-side equals at least in those areas where Welsh is somewhat widely spoken and build from there? As opposed to each school being strictly one or the other. Perhaps the targets are expecting too much too soon.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Would it be better to promote the two languages as side-by-side equals at least in those areas where Welsh is somewhat widely spoken and build from there?

Generally, no. What happens in this case is that the stronger language then dominates, so in this case, English. The Valencian Community is a perfect example of this: where the two languages exist side-by-side, Castilian tends to dominate. Even in Cataluyna, with the strong linguistic norms that all but force Catalan in many contexts and where Spanish is treated as a pathetic joke in schools and in public institutions, Catalan is struggling against Castilian.

What would be best for Welsh is to impose a strict policy of teaching everything in Welsh, except English. It might be that in Wales, it would work better than in Catalunya due to the relatively limited amount of migrants. But the truth is that it's very, very difficult to build a minority language without total commitment to it.

What you definitely don't want to do is to repeat the mistake of the Valencian Community and allow individual schools to decide on the percentages. In Valencia proper, this has caused the situation that many schools are decreasing the amount of Valencian taught to satisfy the demands of the majority, even though Valencian is needed at C1 level for many public jobs.

 

[WAB]

What would be best for Welsh is to impose a strict policy of teaching everything in Welsh, except English. It might be that in Wales, it would work better than in Catalunya due to the relatively limited amount of migrants. But the truth is that it's very, very difficult to build a minority language without total commitment to it.

There are simply not enough teachers who can teach in Welsh available. It's enough of a struggle to get English-medium teachers through the doors.

 

[zero]

Its also worth adding parents are more than welcome to send their kids to an English medium school too. One where maybe the parents would be able to be more involved in their kids education and actually be able to help out with homework and the like. Actually that is one of the big issues with educational attainment in Welsh medium schools, not the schools themselves but English speaking parents not being able to help thier kid out in the same way they'd be able to with an English medium school. You'd get the same impact on a kids educational achievement if they went to an English medium school but the parent wasn't involved or interested in their kids education. There's a reason that (how much the parent is involved and interested) has such a high impact on how a child does in school.

Why do these parents choose to send their kids to Welsh schools?

Were I Welsh with a poor command of the language, but decided to send my child to a Welsh school, I would be trying to improve my Welsh as my child(ren) learnt it at school.

Of course I appreciate that not all parents will have the time or ability to be fully involved in their child's education, but in that case why not send them to an English school?

Are there insufficient English medium schools such that parents are forced to have their children educated in Welsh even if they would prefer otherwise?

It seems like this might result in a situation similar to my wife, who is unable to discuss any sort of complex topic with her own parents because their English ability is insufficient. While she was growing up they did not have time to teach her her heritage language beyond mundane conversation nor improve their English beyond the minimum required for their job.

 

[BingMan]

I’ve always found the opposition to Welsh bizarre. It’s an indigenous language of the United Kingdom and should be protected and encouraged.

Language variations within a nation are divisive. Especially at a time when we need to be united

The world would be a friendlier place if there was only one language

 

[Krokodil]

Why do these parents choose to send their kids to Welsh schools?

Similar reasons to the English parents in Edinburgh who send their kids to Gaelic schools in Edinburgh or Glasgow. They recognise the benefits bilingualism brings their children.

 

[AlterEgo]

Language variations within a nation are divisive.

No, they’re divisive when people use pathetic culture wars stuff to try and snuff out the one they don’t care for. Loads of countries have no issue with two or more languages. It’s not inherently a problem.

 

[Yew]

They recognise the benefits bilingualism brings their children.

The benefits of bilingualism apply to all languages, not just Welsh.

 

[Jantra]

Similar reasons to the English parents in Edinburgh who send their kids to Gaelic schools in Edinburgh or Glasgow. They recognise the benefits bilingualism brings their children.

I can say one of the main reasons why local parents in the suburbs of Cardiff send their kids to Welsh language schools, Cardiff is generally not a Welsh speaking area of Wales. Is for a better overall education and avoid the poorer educational standards of multi ethnic schools in parts of the capital. Less about the benefits of being taught bilingually and more about being with other kids who's parents also have above average incomes.
The same thing happens in some non Welsh language schools that have very good results, e.g. Stanwell in Penarth, house prices in the catchment area are among the highest in Wales, the result being you tend to have very few kids from ethnic backgrounds as their parents are priced out. The long term result is higher house prices, result in better education, result in even higher house prices.
Back to trains, could someone please tell me why on earth the English 'Onboard' announcements on the new 231/756 trains are read by someone with a very pronounced North Wales Accents? If you are going to have a regional accent why not use someone with a Valleys or Cardiff accent? I suspect the reason is most of the communications roles in TfW are mandated to be bi-lingual and hence most of the staff are from North Wales.