Prioritisation of the Welsh and English languages in Wales

[Richard Scott]

Really? All of it? How many people do quadratic equations in their day to day life?

I remember plenty of whinging about French when I was at school.

They see the point of the subject as a whole, being pedantic and picky isn't going to change that fact (I do work I education so these are facts from my experience).
Of course some will whine about subjects, there's nothing everyone likes but afraid Welsh is amongst the least popular; there are some who value it and would be unfair to say otherwise. Our local school has more doing Spanish A-Level than Welsh and the 2 doing Welsh are only doing it as already fluent so see it as an easy qualification.

 

[Krokodil]

They see the point of the subject as a whole, being pedantic and picky isn't going to change that fact

We never saw the point in being forced to take short-course GCSEs in Religious Studies or Citizenship (I can't even recall anything I was taught in the latter, anything that I know about our uncodified constitution, system of government, and legal system has come from my own curiosity). Guess what, we don’t always do what people want. Particularly when those people are juveniles who may not be the best judges of what will be useful for them.

 

[Richard Scott]

We never saw the point in being forced to take short-course GCSEs in Religious Studies or Citizenship (I can't even recall anything I was taught in the latter, anything that I know about our uncodified constitution, system of government, and legal system has come from my own curiosity). Guess what, we don’t always do what people want. Particularly when those people are juveniles who may not be the best judges of what will be useful for them.

Not arguing with that but the point is about learning Welsh and afraid I know of nobody who has ever said Welsh was useful. Granted I'm not in an area where it's widely spoken so my point was that money is being spent to broaden its appeal but it's not happening. No-one is ploughing money into RS etc to try and broaden its appeal.

 

[Western Lord]

As above, the more likely way around is the customer greets the staff member in Welsh and they continue from there.

Although the staff member may not be a Welsh speaker. Presumably even in Welsh speaking areas there are "outsiders" working in some places.

 

[Starmill]

Although the staff member may not be a Welsh speaker. Presumably even in Welsh speaking areas there are "outsiders" working in some places.

Even if they are a Welsh speaker they may just want to use English, and that's fine too. Which is what I was referring to really when I said on request.

 

[WelshBluebird]

They see the point to maths etc.

Lots didnt when I was in school. Could say the same thing about RE, PE, other languages etc too. There's always some group of kids who don't see the point in doing certain subjects.

I know of no-one who regrets not learning Welsh properly and know plenty in their 30s who had no interest and their opinion hasn't changed.

Hello. Said person here.

Yes,it is my opinion but also many others who live in the area

and many others disagree with you

By all means teach it in areas which are Welsh speaking but stop wasting money trying to promote it to those who aren't interested.

Why is it a waste of money but teaching say RE isnt?

That's my point, the number of speakers hasn't increased despite massive investment.

Id like to see some proof of that assertion.

There is a massive underfunding in education in Wales in general so divert some of this money to where it will benefit Welsh children.

Learning a language IS benefitting them.

 

[Richard Scott]

Lots didnt when I was in school. Could say the same thing about RE, PE, other languages etc too. There's always some group of kids who don't see the point in doing certain subjects.

Hello. Said person here.

and many others disagree with you

Why is it a waste of money but teaching say RE isnt?

Id like to see some proof of that assertion.

Learning a language IS benefitting them.

Afraid in my area very few disagree, my statement is based on what people in my area think.
I didn't say teaching it is a waste of money, I stated investing money promoting the language is a waste.
There is a Welsh government survey that states that, sorry can't get phone to copy link.
Learning a language is but they want to learn one they find useful.
Some people are looking at this from a passion point of view (nothing wrong with that) rather than in cold light of day.
My issue is money invested in promoting the language for no results. It's typical government, it doesn't work, throw more money at it. I'm sorry but if you want the language to become more popular then another tactic is required and no amount of typing on this forum is going to change that.

 

[Krokodil]

I didn't say teaching it is a waste of money, I stated investing money promoting the language is a waste.

What money do they spend on promotion?

 

[Richard Scott]

What money do they spend on promotion?

Money spent making things bilingual, Welsh medium schools get more money than English medium schools, it's all unnecessary. There's an obvious priority with the Welsh language despite only around 25% speaking it and are they fluent speakers?
Apparently the budget is £46.3 million for Welsh language support including promotion (sorry, still unable to get phone to copy urls), which was a simple Google to find out.
Let it grow on its own morals, I have nothing against the language but do have a problem with it being a political pet of the Senedd.

 

[DelW]

Apparently the budget is £46.3 million for Welsh language support including promotion (sorry, still unable to get phone to copy urls), which was a simple Google to find out.

No mention of budget, but is this maybe the programme being referred to:

'Historic' bill to boost Welsh learners passed in Senedd

Mark Drakeford says the new law will strengthen the role of the Welsh language in education.

www.bbc.co.uk

A bill which aims to ensure all pupils in Wales finish school as "independent Welsh language users" has been passed in the Senedd.

The Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill aims to close the gap in Welsh speaking ability among pupils from different schools.

It also aims to make progress towards the 2050 target of a million Welsh speakers by strengthening the role of the language in education.

(section omitted)

But he warned "there has been a complete lack of progress for ten years in the percentage of children receiving education through the medium of Welsh", which is around 23%.

"So at the moment the systems to persuade parents to choose Welsh-medium education are not working."

 

[Krokodil]

Money spent making things bilingual

That's not promotion, that's accessibility. Would you say that having government publications into Braille was promoting another language too? Or is it just making sure that all citizens are included?

 

[Richard Scott]

That's not promotion, that's accessibility. Would you say that having government publications into Braille was promoting another language too? Or is it just making sure that all citizens are included?

Ok, point taken but you really are nit picking now.

No mention of budget, but is this maybe the programme being referred to:

'Historic' bill to boost Welsh learners passed in Senedd

Mark Drakeford says the new law will strengthen the role of the Welsh language in education.

www.bbc.co.uk

(section omitted)

A million Welsh Speakers by 2050 when there's 3 million people in the country many of whom will have been exposed to compulsory Welsh in schools. I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous, talk about aiming low. Currently, according to Government site, there are just shy of 900,000 speakers.
It leaves me speechless how much they are pushing this with such poor results.
There are vastly more important issues in Welsh education. Latest curriculum implementation has been a shambles, Welsh children will not have access to separate sciences at GCSE leaving them behind their peers in England. There are also a number of concerns from teachers of English about chosen texts for GCSE; behaviour in many schools is also a big concern. Are they listening in the Senedd? I doubt it. Keep pedalling the language issue and hope everything falls into place, they obviously aren't on this planet?

 

[Starmill]

Money spent making things bilingual, Welsh medium schools get more money than English medium schools, it's all unnecessary. There's an obvious priority with the Welsh language despite only around 25% speaking it and are they fluent speakers?
Apparently the budget is £46.3 million for Welsh language support including promotion (sorry, still unable to get phone to copy urls), which was a simple Google to find out.
Let it grow on its own morals, I have nothing against the language but do have a problem with it being a political pet of the Senedd.

So you're fine with public money being spent on classes for any modern language as long as it's one other than Welsh? You're fine with funding for art and culture projects such as museums and historical places, as long as that's spent on text in any language other than Welsh? This isn't really any substantial new money, it's just moving it around so people can prioritise Welsh. There is nothing even vaguely approaching an obligation to use Welsh in daily life, or be fluent.

 

[styles]

Ok, point taken but you really are nit picking now.


A million Welsh Speakers by 2050 when there's 3 million people in the country many of whom will have been exposed to compulsory Welsh in schools. I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous, talk about aiming low. Currently, according to Government site, there are just shy of 900,000 speakers.
It leaves me speechless how much they are pushing this with such poor results.
There are vastly more important issues in Welsh education. Latest curriculum implementation has been a shambles, Welsh children will not have access to separate sciences at GCSE leaving them behind their peers in England. There are also a number of concerns from teachers of English about chosen texts for GCSE; behaviour in many schools is also a big concern. Are they listening in the Senedd? I doubt it. Keep pedalling the language issue and hope everything falls into place, they obviously aren't on this planet?

I agree that there are other important issues to work on in the Welsh education system, particularly KS4 and tertiary education, but they're not incompatible with Welsh language education and promotion.

Also some of those are large problems in England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland - behaviour in schools, chosen texts, etc. They're not really related to Welsh language education, or at least, I'd be surprised if teaching Welsh was shown to be causing significant behavioural problems.

 

[WelshBluebird]

million Welsh Speakers by 2050 when there's 3 million people in the country many of whom will have been exposed to compulsory Welsh in schools.

33% given the language was being beaten out of people would be pretty damn amazing really.

Apparently the budget is £46.3 million for Welsh language support including promotion

So next to nothing. About 0.07% of the Welsh education budget.

 

[AlterEgo]

I’ve always found the opposition to Welsh bizarre. It’s an indigenous language of the United Kingdom and should be protected and encouraged.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I’ve always found the opposition to Welsh bizarre. It’s an indigenous language of the United Kingdom and should be protected and encouraged.

It's surreal for me as well. I'm used to it as a native speaker of Scots, but there's a similar amount of opposition towards Scots Gaelic as well.

No mention of budget, but is this maybe the programme being referred to:

'Historic' bill to boost Welsh learners passed in Senedd

Mark Drakeford says the new law will strengthen the role of the Welsh language in education.

www.bbc.co.uk

This is pretty much the same approach as used in Catalunya. It takes a lot of effort and requires speakers of the language to stick using the language in public even when people say they don't understand, even though it can be easier for them to simply switch to Castilian.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with such a policy, and Wales will benefit immensely from becoming more bilingual.

 

[styles]

It's surreal for me as well. I'm used to it as a native speaker of Scots, but there's a similar amount of opposition towards Scots Gaelic as well.

It's surreal for me as a basic Welsh speaker now living in Scotland with family who live on Lewis where Gaelic is commonplace (albeit not quite dominant).

I feel as though promotion and teaching of the Welsh language gets blamed for things which are, in all honesty, unrelated. Behaviour in high schools for example is bad in England and Scotland, not just Wales. Similarly on spending, at last count £43.6m was allocated for the Welsh language from the Welsh Government resource budget of £18.8bn. No doubt there will be 'hidden' costs of bilingual government, but adding Welsh to village welcome signs just isn't the reason the Welsh NHS is underperforming.

 

[Richard Scott]

I feel as though promotion and teaching of the Welsh language gets blamed for things which are, in all honesty, unrelated. Behaviour in high schools for example is bad in England and Scotland, not just Wales.

At risk of going off topic, behaviour in schools is not being blamed on learning Welsh or any other subject but Welsh Government not listening. There are schools that have improved behaviour but the way it's done doesn't fit the Government narrative so is overlooked.
No-one is saying behaviour is perfect elsewhere either but just because it's also poor elsewhere is not an excuse for it to be poor in Wales also.

 

[styles]

At risk of going off topic, behaviour in schools is not being blamed on learning Welsh or any other subject but Welsh Government not listening. There are schools that have improved behaviour but the way it's done doesn't fit the Government narrative so is overlooked.
No-one is saying behaviour is perfect elsewhere either but just because it's also poor elsewhere is not an excuse for it to be poor in Wales also.

It has been referenced both in this post and the original it spun off from that there are 'more important issues to deal with' and 'better things to spend money on', and behaviour has been specifically mentioned.

There does seem to be an issue in modern political debate that actions are framed as mutually-exclusive, even just in a financial sense, when in reality you can both tackle behaviour problems and also advance uptake of the Welsh language.

 

[Richard Scott]

It has been referenced both in this post and the original it spun off from that there are 'more important issues to deal with' and 'better things to spend money on', and behaviour has been specifically mentioned.

There does seem to be an issue in modern political debate that actions are framed as mutually-exclusive, even just in a financial sense, when in reality you can both tackle behaviour problems and also advance uptake of the Welsh language.

To be honest it isn't money that's required in tackling behaviour in schools but consistent policies and the will to implement them (speaking from experience). Fear we could be moving off topic and may need a new thread if wish to discuss further?

 

[Jantra]

I have lived in Wales for 30 odd years and sadly the Welsh language has become rather divisive over the past 5 years or so.
There is primary legislation to give equal status to both Welsh and English, but you would not know that when travelling on TfW or using TfW run stations
They seem to go out of their way to promote Welsh over English, from using bold type face for the Welsh and a slightly larger font to choosing a background colour on posters to make the English less readable or obvious.
On the new 231/756 trains the announcement first in Welsh then in English, except the 'English' pronunciation of the place names sounds totally weird, people that live in these places all their lives would never pronounce them that way.
I've nothing against the Welsh language, but when the vast majority who use the trains don't speak it, why if not for political reasons would this be their course of action?
What amuses me after a long bi-lingual announcement at Cardiff Central late at night, the station announcer has to shout in English to get people on the right train and the right platform (as if everyone has tuned off to these announcements)

 

[Tetchytyke]

I’ve always found the opposition to Welsh bizarre. It’s an indigenous language of the United Kingdom and should be protected and encouraged.

It’s just yet more depressing culture war bollocks. It’s really quite tiresome. Why does everything have to be such an argument? Why does everything have to be treated as some zero-sum competition?

Where I live the use of Manx, as part of the wider Manx culture, is celebrated.

They seem to go out of their way to promote Welsh over English, from using bold type face for the Welsh

And if they didn’t bold one of the languages everyone would complain that they couldn’t see where the Welsh ended and the English started, or vice versa.

It rather sounds to me like the real issue for many on this thread is that English isn’t the language in bold. But why should it be?

As for schools, many schools (especially private schools) pride themselves on teaching Latin, despite the fact that that language has been functionally dead for 1,000 years. Nobody seems to get their bee in a bonnet about that. But they do about Welsh. I don’t understand.

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s just yet more depressing culture war bollocks. It’s really quite tiresome. Why does everything have to be such an argument? Why does everything have to be treated as some zero-sum competition?

Well quite. Always found it odd when Conservatives hit down on Welsh. Hey guys, here’s something indigenous and ancient and unique to the UK you might want to conserve!

 

[Jantra]

I was not making it up, they choose white for the Welsh Text and Black for the English!
Not exactly culture wars but someone is having a laugh at the majorities expense.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I was not making it up, they choose white for the Welsh Text and Black for the English!

Why is that an issue? They both stand out equally well on an orange background.

Always found it odd when Conservatives hit down on Welsh.

They seem to take anything different to them as a personal affront. It must be exhausting being so angry about everything all of the time.

My work email signature is in English and Manx. No idea what the Manx wording says as I can’t speak Manx, other than to wish good day to the fairies (as in my forum signature). I assume my employer has translated it correctly but who knows! I can’t imagine ever getting angry about it.

 

[Krokodil]

My work email signature is in English and Manx. No idea what the Manx wording says as I can’t speak Manx, other than to wish good day to the fairies (as in my forum signature). I assume my employer has translated it correctly but who knows! I can’t imagine ever getting angry about it.

Just wait until you realise that the Manx bit of your signature actually says "I am out of the office until Tuesday, please forward any requests for translations to..."

 

[WAB]

What amuses me after a long bi-lingual announcement at Cardiff Central late at night, the station announcer has to shout in English to get people on the right train and the right platform (as if everyone has tuned off to these announcements)

I will say this phenomenon tickles me. For a station without manual announcers, Cardiff Central and other Welsh stations have an unusually high level of manual announcements, generally cutting into the Welsh announcements to deliver messages in English about platform alterations, imminent departures, removal of stops, train going out of service etc. If they waited for the auto announcer to get through each announcement in Welsh then English, the moment would have passed.

I have actually heard manual Welsh announcements onboard TfW services, but only once or twice and only for the generic speech.

Why is that an issue? They both stand out equally well on an orange background.

I wonder what the result would be if you ran both colour combinations through a colour contrast tool...

 

[GusB]

I have a question for @Richard Scott: are you actually Welsh, or have you migrated there? If it's the former, I'd be interested to know why you have such a dim view of the promotion of the Welsh language.

I’ve always found the opposition to Welsh bizarre. It’s an indigenous language of the United Kingdom and should be protected and encouraged.

Quite. I have similar feelings about those who oppose the promotion of Gaelic. People often trot out the argument that the language was never spoken in their part of the world when Gaelic was actually far more widely spoken than most people realise. Its decline was partly because of the spread of the Scots language but its use was actively discouraged by the establishment over the years, by both church and state.

It's surreal for me as well. I'm used to it as a native speaker of Scots, but there's a similar amount of opposition towards Scots Gaelic as well.

I had to learn Scots, to an extent. While my parents and grandparents would often use some Scots words, the language I grew up with was English. My mum was sent to elocution lessons because her parents thought that her opportunities would otherwise be limited. My dad was in the forces and largely had to speak English most of the time.

When I moved here at the age of five, I discovered that there was a whole new language to learn; I knew what a "wean"* was, but here there were "bairns"! When I moved to Aberdeen in my late teens I was exposed to a completely different dialect.
(* Pronounced as "wayne")

I don't want to go too off-topic as this thread is specifically about Welsh but it annoys me when people complain about the promotion of languages other than English. I accept that some languages will naturally change over time and will perhaps die out eventually, but when those languages have been artificially supressed over the years I think it's only fair that some efforts are made to keep them going.

 

[Tetchytyke]

People often trot out the argument that the language was never spoken in their part of the world when Gaelic was actually far more widely spoken than most people realise

I find the spread of languages fascinating, both actual languages and dialects.

It’s interesting how things spread. You mention the word “bairn” for child; that word also pops up in Geordie. In Geordie there’s a word “skeet” for gossip; that also pops up in Manx. It may well have spread due to the mining industry; there are Cornish words here too for that reason.

It’s why I don’t understand the rage about other languages.