Why are 350/2s being replaced with 730s?

[physics34]

I reckon the 350/2s will end up in Scotland. Just a thought.

 

[AJDesiro]

Well almost - it's going to be a 10 car (which will mean double seats for everyone). Suspect that may be for reliability, though - I seem to recall 730/0s were originally only allowed in pairs for this reason.

I got a single 730/0 on the 3rd January 2024, (also my first one) so that must have been short lived!

 

[Russel]

Well almost - it's going to be a 10 car (which will mean double seats for everyone). Suspect that may be for reliability, though - I seem to recall 730/0s were originally only allowed in pairs for this reason.

WMR Really had faith in the new stock they ordered then...

 

[Silverlinky]

730's were only allowed in pairs initially, and yes it was for reliability however LNR were never going to run 3 car trains down south anyway so they were planned as 6 cars for timetabling and passenger capacity.
There were never any diagrammed 3 car services, but after a short time they did occasionally run as short-formed 3 car units only if the other unit had failed. WMR of course have and continue to diagram solo 730/0's on their routes now that reliability is at an acceptable level.

There is a special train planned to run from Euston to Milton Keynes for the southern dignitaries and press on 6th June.
1Z01 1105 Euston to Milton Keynes (1137)
1Z02 1147 Milton Keynes to Euston (1222)

Corresponding ECS moves to and from Bletchley TMD (5T01 and 5T02) either end of this.

The plan for the 9th is for 350's to work the morning part of the diagram and the 730/2's to be inserted for the evening peak by way of additional moves during the day.

 

[778]

730's were only allowed in pairs initially, and yes it was for reliability however LNR were never going to run 3 car trains down south anyway so they were planned as 6 cars for timetabling and passenger capacity.
There were never any diagrammed 3 car services, but after a short time they did occasionally run as short-formed 3 car units only if the other unit had failed. WMR of course have and continue to diagram solo 730/0's on their routes now that reliability is at an acceptable level.

There is a special train planned to run from Euston to Milton Keynes for the southern dignitaries and press on 6th June.
1Z01 1105 Euston to Milton Keynes (1137)
1Z02 1147 Milton Keynes to Euston (1222)

Corresponding ECS moves to and from Bletchley TMD (5T01 and 5T02) either end of this.

The plan for the 9th is for 350's to work the morning part of the diagram and the 730/2's to be inserted for the evening peak by way of additional moves during the day.

Did LNR plan for the 730/0s to run as 9 car trains when they were first introduced? I am sure I saw some 9 car stop boards at Watford Junction but I think they might have gone now. Have they started putting 5 and 10 car stop boards up yet for the 730/2s?

I hope all 730/2 services run in 10 car formations as that would mean no more standing for passengers on WCML local services.

 

[AJDesiro]

Did LNR plan for the 730/0s to run as 9 car trains when they were first introduced? I am sure I saw some 9 car stop boards at Watford Junction but I think they might have gone now. Have they started putting 5 and 10 car stop boards up yet for the 730/2s?

I hope all 730/2 services run in 10 car formations as that would mean no more standing for passengers on WCML local services.

Nearly all of the stop boards on the south WCML have been harmonised, there's now little-to-no rolling stock specific markers. For example, platform 1 at Rugby in the northbound direction used to have a Class 57/390 Loco Stop, a 9/11 390 marker, a 10 22x marker, an 8 car stop, a 5 22x marker and a 4 car stop. These have now been harmonised to a 57/390 Loco Stop, a 9-12 car stop, a 6-8 car stop and a 3-5 car stop. This sort of thing has been replicated pretty much across the WCML south of Crewe.

 

[185]

I got a single 730/0 on the 3rd January 2024, (also my first one) so that must have been short lived!

I think I jested in 2019 on here that no doubt with the bingo machine of unit numbers, sending any train anywhere, there would be a 3-car orange thing packed to the rafters with arms and legs out of the window scuttling past Harrow & Wealdstone at some point. I recall the same old faces on here rushing to correct me stating No! they were only for the cross city line.. and 2025... Yeah - here we are lol

Saturdays lottery numbers are:
4
11
26...
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[AJDesiro]

I think I jested in 2019 on here that no doubt with the bingo machine of unit numbers, sending any train anywhere, there would be a 3-car orange thing packed to the rafters with arms and legs out of the window scuttling past Harrow & Wealdstone at some point.

In all honesty it coped quite well. Once the /0s move up north having been displaced by the /2s I don’t think we’ll see it happen again…

 

[Bletchleyite]

In all honesty it coped quite well. Once the /0s move up north having been displaced by the /2s I don’t think we’ll see it happen again…

My experience is that a 3 car 730 is better than a 4 car 350. More standing space.

 

[Silverlinky]

Did LNR plan for the 730/0s to run as 9 car trains when they were first introduced? I am sure I saw some 9 car stop boards at Watford Junction but I think they might have gone now. Have they started putting 5 and 10 car stop boards up yet for the 730/2s?

I hope all 730/2 services run in 10 car formations as that would mean no more standing for passengers on WCML local services.

No, they were never planned although during the testing/measuring process it was all done on a "just in case" basis.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, they were never planned although during the testing/measuring process it was all done on a "just in case" basis.

Pre COVID the Bletchley starter Tring stoppers (!) were mostly 12 car formations and needed as such, so I'd imagine 9s would have happened had COVID not happened.

10.730 will be gross overkill for that 0656 diagram post COVID, 5 will be about perfect for it - I guess 10 is just for reliability initially. A good thing about 5 car formations is that 5x24m is enough for some services - 4x20m is not enough for anything bar very early Sunday mornings.

 

[tfw756rider]

It's been reported by Today's Railways on Twitter that the 730/2s will first work the 16:19 Euston-Northampton on the 9th June, with the full diagram, starting with the 06:56 Bletchley-Euston being implemented the following day.

https://x.com/TodaysRailways/status/1925920495410491602

Just to be clear, will this still be the case?

 

[nw1]

But none of that will change with a different train. Also a 350/2 can and does turn up on any service. They aren't captive to any flow. It is pot luck. They are often paired with a different subclass so you could just move to the "nicer" version to do your laptop work. Again, it is pot luck.

Interesting, so they don't allocate 350/2s to the slower services and the other subclasses to the faster?

This contrasts to say, SWR where the 444s are found on faster services and 450s on slower, with some mid-range services seeing both.

The same was also true in the slam-door era, with the CIGs (2+2) on faster services and VEPs (3+2) on slower services, generally, again with mid-range services seeing both.

 

[DarloRich]

Interesting, so they don't allocate 350/2s to the slower services and the other subclasses to the faster?

as far as I am aware a common user pool - they all go the same speed after all

( what the 730/350 operational future looks like is unknown to me)

 

[nw1]

as far as I am aware a common user pool - they all go the same speed after all

( what the 730/350 operational future looks like is unknown to me)

I asked as in the ex-Southern Region, there is, and always has been a tendency to allocate units with 2+2 seating to the faster services, where people are likely to be making longer journeys. The equivalent units in the south also go/did go at the same speed too.

For example the fast Weymouth services are (AFAIK) 100% 444, no 450s at all. The Portsmouth Direct which could be seen as mid-range is a mix of both, while the shorter/slower Alton and Basingstoke services are almost all 450s.

 

[MCR247]

I asked as in the ex-Southern Region, there is, and always has been a tendency to allocate units with 2+2 seating to the faster services, where people are likely to be making longer journeys. The equivalent units in the south also go/did go at the same speed too.

For example the fast Weymouth services are (AFAIK) 100% 444, no 450s at all. The Portsmouth Direct which could be seen as mid-range is a mix of both, while the shorter/slower Alton and Basingstoke services are almost all 450s.

But then the 444s and 450s are distinct fleets. A better comparison would be Southern with their Class 377 fleet, although I don’t think they diagram based on seat layout…

 

[nw1]

But then the 444s and 450s are distinct fleets. A better comparison would be Southern with their Class 377 fleet, although I don’t think they diagram based on seat layout…

You could say that's semantics though, I guess. Presumably they could have, had they decided to, called the 350/2 the 351 on the basis of its differing seat layout.
There's presumably no reason why, in theory, they could not allocate the 350/2s solely to semi-fast and stopping services.

Perhaps another comparator would be the 3-car 165/1 and the 166, yet presumably in NSE/Thames Trains days the 165/1 and 166 had separate diagrams.
Also I believe the 375/9 on the South Eastern are diagrammed differently to the regular 375 - or at least were, in pre-Covid days.

 

[JonathanH]

I asked as in the ex-Southern Region, there is, and always has been a tendency to allocate units with 2+2 seating to the faster services, where people are likely to be making longer journeys. The equivalent units in the south also go/did go at the same speed too.

While true, there were also 3+2 units allocated to some of the faster services where capacity dictated that to be necessary. That is partially why Southern's 377 fleet has a mix and why the 375/9s exist on Southeastern.

If more seating capacity is needed on a particular longer distance LNR service, it makes sense to put a 350/2 in that formation.

 

[MCR247]

You could say that's semantics though, I guess. Presumably they could have called the 350/2 the 351 on the basis of its differing seat layout.
There's presumably no reason why, in theory, they could not allocate the 350/2s solely to semi-fast and stopping services.

It’s more the other way around for me. You couldn’t have 444s and 450s diagrammed interchangeably as they are very different trains (carriage length, number of carriages etc.). So to say the ex-Southern region diagrams based on seating layouts isn’t really true, as the only example you gave for this was 444s and 450s, where it simply isn’t down to seating layouts.

 

[nw1]

It’s more the other way around for me. You couldn’t have 444s and 450s diagrammed interchangeably as they are very different trains (carriage length, number of carriages etc.). So to say the ex-Southern region diagrams based on seating layouts isn’t really true, as the only example you gave for this was 444s and 450s, where it simply isn’t down to seating layouts.

Fair enough. What about the CIGs and VEPs though? Each 4 car, Mk-I based, similar external design.
These were definitely diagrammed separately, with the main difference being the seating layouts though the VEPs of course had doors in every seating bay and the CIGs (formerly) had some features of long-distance ambience such as curtains.

Having been raised on CIGs and VEPs, the notion of diagramming 2+2 and 3+2 stock separately is second-nature to me.

I want to clarify also that the point I'm trying to make is not that there should be no 3+2 stock on faster services - it's that 2+2 and 3+2 stock should be diagrammed separately (see below).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 09:56 ==

While true, there were also 3+2 units allocated to some of the faster services where capacity dictated that to be necessary. That is partially why Southern's 377 fleet has a mix and why the 375/9s exist on Southeastern.

If more seating capacity is needed on a particular longer distance LNR service, it makes sense to put a 350/2 in that formation.

That is true and that's not what I am disputing - even in slam-door days there were a few VEP expresses down here, of course, where capacity demanded.

What I thought strange was the earlier comment that 350/2s are not diagrammed separately - not that they might be diagrammed on a few faster services.

 

[Lewisham2221]

though the VEPs of course had doors in every seating bay

Thus making them a very different train, better suited to commuter services. Like how the the 444s have single leaf end doors and the 450s have twin leaf doors at mid-carriage positions. On the other hand, all sub-classes of 350 have the same door type and layout, so operationally there is little/no difference.

 

[DelW]

It’s more the other way around for me. You couldn’t have 444s and 450s diagrammed interchangeably as they are very different trains (carriage length, number of carriages etc.).

My impression (without having analysed the timetable) is that the split on the Portsmouth Direct is apparently random, with both 444s and 450s turning up on each type of service (Pompey semifast, Pompey stopper, Haslemere terminator). They come in lengths of 4, 5, 8, 9, 10 and 12 coaches, the 9 of course being a 444+450 pairing.

In fact I think the reason is that these units inter-work with other routes, and it's those that define the type chosen for each diagram.