Manchester Metrolink (Non speculative discussion)

[Tim33160]

Sunday saw the regular Sunday MUFC football service (but unadvertised) running on the Altrincham line with double trams running every 15 mins Altrincham - Crumpsall with the advertised Altrincham - Etihad service also every 15 mins. MUFC 1415 KO so these ran from around 10am to around 1800.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The OHLE packed in at Langworthy/Weaste yesterday, saw a tram between the two stations completely fail in the middle of the road.

My biggest problem at the moment is how absolutely unbearably hot the M5000s are in this weather. You’d think trams built as recently as they have been would be air conditioned, really. Even the buses feel cooler, even on the top deck where the sun hits hardest!

 

[Class 466]

The OHLE packed in at Langworthy/Weaste yesterday, saw a tram between the two stations completely fail in the middle of the road.

My biggest problem at the moment is how absolutely unbearably hot the M5000s are in this weather. You’d think trams built as recently as they have been would be air conditioned, really. Even the buses feel cooler, even on the top deck where the sun hits hardest!

All comes down to cost saving - fairly sure the K5000s have air con

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

All comes down to cost saving - fairly sure the K5000s have air con

I know you’re not supposed to be on them for THAT long, but gosh. Absolutely roasting with those big windows, and not many of them open either.

 

[AverageJoe]

The OHLE packed in at Langworthy/Weaste yesterday, saw a tram between the two stations completely fail in the middle of the road.

My biggest problem at the moment is how absolutely unbearably hot the M5000s are in this weather. You’d think trams built as recently as they have been would be air conditioned, really. Even the buses feel cooler, even on the top deck where the sun hits hardest!

They do have aircon… but if there is an OHLE failure there is then nothing to power the aircon.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They do have aircon… but if there is an OHLE failure there is then nothing to power the aircon.

Well obviously. But I was talking about the multiple times I used the tram when the OHLE was working. Those trams certainly didn’t have aircon. I might have been unlucky and got ones with broken aircon for the past five commutes… if you’re sure they have aircon that is.

 

[The exile]

Aircon is never going to be brilliant in a vehicle that has big door openings and frequent stops - any more than heating is. In fact it’s worse with aircon as the effect of the sun means it will get hotter than outside whereas in winter it’s unlikely ever to be colder than the outside temperatures people are dressed for.

 

[Ethano92]

Aircon is never going to be brilliant in a vehicle that has big door openings and frequent stops - any more than heating is. In fact it’s worse with aircon as the effect of the sun means it will get hotter than outside whereas in winter it’s unlikely ever to be colder than the outside temperatures people are dressed for.

Metrolink trams aren’t fitted with air con. Saying that, air con on the S stock on the tube works just fine, at least providing an environment much cooler than outside if not always ice cold. Same as London and Paris’ newer tram vehicles.

 

[tram21]

Nottingham's Air-conditioning works well, when it's working! They maintain a nice cool temperature.

 

[507 001]

They do have aircon… but if there is an OHLE failure there is then nothing to power the aircon.

No they don’t.

Well, they do in the cabs, but even that isn’t exactly reliable.

 

[AverageJoe]

No they don’t.

Well, they do in the cabs, but even that isn’t exactly reliable.

I’m almost certain they do, I know you work there but I did a while back and remember on 2 occasions where we had failed OHLE and I had to wait with the tram.
One was winter and the saloon got freezing and one was summer and the saloon got unbearable hot.
So there must be some type of heater/aircon that attempts to maintain a constant temperature, although admittedly not very well.

 

[plugwash]

You’d think trams built as recently as they have been would be air conditioned, really. Even the buses feel cooler, even on the top deck where the sun hits hardest!

The initial order for M5000s was placed 18 years ago, since then Manchester has just continued ordering more trams to the same spec.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Having both a Manchester City first team home game and a Bruce Springsteen concert at the nearby Co-op Live Arena, on Tuesday evening (20th May), should test the Metrolink system somewhat!

 

[507 001]

I’m almost certain they do, I know you work there but I did a while back and remember on 2 occasions where we had failed OHLE and I had to wait with the tram.
One was winter and the saloon got freezing and one was summer and the saloon got unbearable hot.
So there must be some type of heater/aircon that attempts to maintain a constant temperature, although admittedly not very well.

Well you can be certain, but you’d still be wrong.

They have a heater and a forced ventilation system, but no aircon in the saloons.

 

[toms]

I’m almost certain they do, I know you work there but I did a while back and remember on 2 occasions where we had failed OHLE and I had to wait with the tram.
One was winter and the saloon got freezing and one was summer and the saloon got unbearable hot.
So there must be some type of heater/aircon that attempts to maintain a constant temperature, although admittedly not very well.

Your talking to someone who has most likely probably seen the M5000 handbooks & actually operates them

 

[507 001]

Your talking to someone who has most likely probably seen the M5000 handbooks & actually operates them

Seen them? I wrote one of them…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2025 ==

The initial order for M5000s was placed 18 years ago, since then Manchester has just continued ordering more trams to the same spec.

The last batch actually have a number of differences.

 

[AverageJoe]

Seen them? I wrote one of them…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2025 ==



The last batch actually have a number of differences.

Well it’s been a while since I worked at Metrolink so I’ve obviously forgotten rob.

@toms not sure this jumping to his defence thing considering I was a driver there myself once upon a time. Yeh I’ve obviously forgotten but I’ve spent years away and learned different tractions on trains since so it’s not out of the ordinary that I would forget a bit about the trams.

 

[Class 466]

I see that another chunk of city centre infrastructure (between Piccadilly & Piccadilly Gardens) will be closed for just over two months between 3rd June & 10 August. At this point the network has had a closure in the city centre somewhere for more time in 2025 than not. 2024 was much the same… maybe it’s time for a full scale rolling renewal of infrastructure as they seem to be forever chasing their tail fixing Speed Restrictions as more come on somewhere else in the city centre.

 

[duffield]

I see that another chunk of city centre infrastructure (between Piccadilly & Piccadilly Gardens) will be closed for just over two months between 3rd June & 10 August. At this point the network has had a closure in the city centre somewhere for more time in 2025 than not. 2024 was much the same… maybe it’s time for a full scale rolling renewal of infrastructure as they seem to be forever chasing their tail fixing Speed Restrictions as more come on somewhere else in the city centre.

So, any idea which is going to be quicker/more liable to holdups during "normal" hours while these works are on?
Tram Piccadilly->Change at St. Peters Square->Victoria
or
Free bus route 2 Piccadilly->Victoria?

I'd get the direct Ordsall train service but at 1tph it almost never works out!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So, any idea which is going to be quicker/more liable to holdups during "normal" hours while these works are on?

Tram Piccadilly->Change at St. Peters Square->Victoria
or
Free bus route 2 Piccadilly->Victoria?

I'd get the direct Ordsall train service but at 1tph it almost never works out!

If the planned closure in June/July/August is between Piccadilly and Piccadilly Gardens, don't see how there can possibly be any trams running direct from Piccadilly to St. Peter's Square?!

Should, however, be possible to walk from Piccadilly down to Market Street and then get a tram onward to Victoria from there.

 

[duffield]

If the planned closure in June/July/August is between Piccadilly and Piccadilly Gardens, don't see how there can possibly be any trams running direct from Piccadilly to St. Peter's Square?!

Should, however, be possible to walk from Piccadilly down to Market Street and then get a tram onward to Victoria from there.

Of course, stupid of me, I was thinking of previous closures where changing at St. Peters was possible. Anyhow, I think the best option for me might be to stay on my train to Oxford road rather than get off at Piccadilly, then walk to St. Peters Square from there and get the tram. That's only about 600m walk instead of around 1100m from Piccadilly to Market Street.

It does seem that nearly every time I go to Manchester there are no direct trams from Pic to Vic for one reason or another.

 

[507 001]

I see that another chunk of city centre infrastructure (between Piccadilly & Piccadilly Gardens) will be closed for just over two months between 3rd June & 10 August. At this point the network has had a closure in the city centre somewhere for more time in 2025 than not. 2024 was much the same… maybe it’s time for a full scale rolling renewal of infrastructure as they seem to be forever chasing their tail fixing Speed Restrictions as more come on somewhere else in the city centre.

A rolling renewal of the city centre infrastructure is exactly what we’re doing…

 

[Puffing Devil]

A rolling renewal of the city centre infrastructure is exactly what we’re doing…

Was it not possible to have some form of single-line working to maintain a skeleton service?

 

[edwin_m]

Was it not possible to have some form of single-line working to maintain a skeleton service?

Probably very difficult in practice. They wouldn't really want trams passing close to the worksite and with each tram having to reverse at least twice to access trailing crossovers, the achievable frequency would have been very low and if people knew trams were running they would probably overcrowd the few available. Also various bits of the triangle at Piccadilly Gardens can't be worked on without affecting both tracks.

However, I guess they have to keep at least one track from Piccadilly to either Deansgate or Victoria physically intact, so Ashton line trams can get to or from one of the depots.

 

[The exile]

Probably very difficult in practice. They wouldn't really want trams passing close to the worksite and with each tram having to reverse at least twice to access trailing crossovers, the achievable frequency would have been very low and if people knew trams were running they would probably overcrowd the few available.

Are statistics available from continental systems on the number of excess injuries etc caused by the use of single-line working through worksites and of the Kletterweiche?

 

[duffield]

Was it not possible to have some form of single-line working to maintain a skeleton service?

Apart from the work site issues, is the closed section (not just the bit actually being worked on) entirely segregated? If some of it is mixed with road traffic, you can't have trams going against the flow without road closures, even if the tram infrastructure technically allows it.

I haven't used the Manchester trams enough to remember if this is an issue or not.

 

[toms]

Apart from the work site issues, is the closed section (not just the bit actually being worked on) entirely segregated? If some of it is mixed with road traffic, you can't have trams going against the flow without road closures, even if the tram infrastructure technically allows it.

I haven't used the Manchester trams enough to remember if this is an issue or not.

If it’s between Piccadilly gardens and Piccadilly which I think it is, it’s mostly got its own space off road but there are 3 road crossings between the two stations

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If it’s between Piccadilly gardens and Piccadilly which I think it is, it’s mostly got its own space off road but there are 3 road crossings between the two stations

Think you're right. Flat road crossings at Portland Street, Aytoun Street / Auburn Street and then London Road (A6). Segregated areas, only intended to be used by Metrolink trams, inbetween.

 

[edwin_m]

If it’s between Piccadilly gardens and Piccadilly which I think it is, it’s mostly got its own space off road but there are 3 road crossings between the two stations

The tram signals and the loops that trigger the traffic signals are positioned according to the directions the trams are expected to run, so won't work for wrong direction moves unless they have been designed in.

 

[The exile]

If some of it is mixed with road traffic, you can't have trams going against the flow without road closures, even if the tram infrastructure technically allows it.

While appreciating that they are dealing with very different traffic volumes from central Manchester, the Kirnitschtalbahn and several other continental tramways would beg to differ!