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GWR Cornish Night Riviera Sleeper: alternative methods of working?

Tetragon213

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I distinctly remember the sleeper departs Paddington with 2 locomotives, but detaches one almost immediately at Reading. Any reason the second locomotive can't continue down to Penzance (acting as a backup) to reduce the chances of a locomotive failure doing, well... this?
 
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fgwrich

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I distinctly remember the sleeper departs Paddington with 2 locomotives, but detaches one almost immediately at Reading. Any reason the second locomotive can't continue down to Penzance (acting as a backup) to reduce the chances of a locomotive failure doing, well... this?
Because, for one largely simple reason. If your trailing loco isn’t detached at Reading, how does the sleeper get back to Reading in the morning from Paddington with the loco trapped on the blocks ;)
 

Tetragon213

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Because, for one largely simple reason. If your trailing loco isn’t detached at Reading, how does the sleeper get back to Reading in the morning from Paddington with the loco trapped on the blocks ;)
Just tell the driver to stick his head out the window and look over his shoulder all the way back to Reading? :lol: :lol:

I suppose one could have the sets travel top-and-tailed at all times a la the Class 43 powercars if the reliability is such a concern? (especially seeing as much of the Cornish Mainline is single track iirc, and a failure would be, shall we say, rather detrimental to continued service). Alternatively, perhaps install a DVT at the other end to act as a control cab and double as additional luggage space?
 

Anonymous10

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Just tell the driver to stick his head out the window and look over his shoulder all the way back to Reading? :lol: :lol:

I suppose one could have the sets travel top-and-tailed at all times a la the Class 43 powercars if the reliability is such a concern? (especially seeing as much of the Cornish Mainline is single track iirc, and a failure would be, shall we say, rather detrimental to continued service). Alternatively, perhaps install a DVT at the other end to act as a control cab and double as additional luggage space?
Pretty sure it's double track, nearly all stations are two platform affairs.
 

Korot

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1) If you top/tail down from London to Penzance, you'll also have to top/tail up from Penzance to London, else you'll collect a lot of 57's in Penzance! Futhermore, if reliability is the reason you want to have a back-up locomotive going 'down', certainly reliability is also so poor you'd want that back-up locomotive going 'up'? And thus the 'tail' locomotive on the 'up' sleeper would then be the pilot on the depot move London -> Reading.
2) Are there not still carriage sidings near Paddington? So if you don't have a pilot locomotive at the 'down' end, the driver could back the sleeper into those sidings, run around his engine to the other end of the carriages, and then haul the consist to Reading?
3) For both top/tail and DVT solutions: are the sleeper carriages fit with through cabling to enable communication between the DVT/leading loco and the trailing locomotive?
 

DelW

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3) For both top/tail and DVT solutions: are the sleeper carriages fit with through cabling to enable communication between the DVT/leading loco and the trailing locomotive?
I doubt it - AIUI HST mk3s had different wiring from loco-hauled mk3s, to enable them to carry control signals between the power cars.

But technology has moved on since the HSTs were built in the 1970s. I think it would be technically straightforward to use radio remote control equipment to operate the rear loco/PC from the leading cab. Whether the benefits would justify the cost is another question.
 

43096

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I doubt it - AIUI HST mk3s had different wiring from loco-hauled mk3s, to enable them to carry control signals between the power cars.
The sleepers have through cables that could be used to carry control signals - the RCH jumpers have been used for TDM control in the past.
But technology has moved on since the HSTs were built in the 1970s. I think it would be technically straightforward to use radio remote control equipment to operate the rear loco/PC from the leading cab. Whether the benefits would justify the cost is another question.
Whilst the technologiy is there - the GE-Harris (now Wabtec) Locotrol system does just that for DPU (Distributed Power Unit) where locos are spread through the train, all controlled from the leading cab - you can bet it would be a case of "not invented here" if someone wanted to use it here.
 

Steddenm

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I doubt it - AIUI HST mk3s had different wiring from loco-hauled mk3s, to enable them to carry control signals between the power cars.

But technology has moved on since the HSTs were built in the 1970s. I think it would be technically straightforward to use radio remote control equipment to operate the rear loco/PC from the leading cab. Whether the benefits would justify the cost is another question.
I think by using HST power cars or a DVT and maybe Class 67 or 68 on the sleeper would bring a great advantage to the sleeper. The 57s are quite unreliable recently and by using it in Push-Pull or HST mode would enable more storage for luggage (especially surf boards to Newquay etc) and will help with the shunting moves at both Penzance and Paddington. I know Reading aren't kitted out to do any light work on the 43s anymore but a swap to the 67 or 68 and a DVT would work easily as they've already got knowledge of diesel loco traction. Failing that, would Hitatchi be able to produce a 9-car sleeper variant of their 80x units? The Mk5s that Caledonian Sleeper have tough would be the best opportunity for the sleeper but without the extortionate CS charges!
 

trebor79

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Failing that, would Hitatchi be able to produce a 9-car sleeper variant of their 80x units?
That's a terrible idea. All that traction motor and electronics noise would be unacceptable. Not to mention the rattling and banging from the bogies.
 

MattRat

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Failing that, would Hitatchi be able to produce a 9-car sleeper variant of their 80x units?
Why on earth would you need 125 mph capable stock for a sleeper train? Other MUs are available to try and convert, in particular the fantastic FLIRT units, which have the benefit of the power packs being in separate 'coaches', away from passengers
 

TheWierdOne

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That's a terrible idea. All that traction motor and electronics noise would be unacceptable. Not to mention the rattling and banging from the bogies.
There is precedent for multiple units as sleepers, China, Norway and Austria (to varying degrees of success and true multiple unit standard) have done it. I would suggest a FLIRT might be a better candidate for sleeper operation.
 

trebor79

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Why on earth would you need 125 mph capable stock for a sleeper train? Other MUs are available to try and convert, in particular the fantastic FLIRT units, which have the benefit of the power packs being in separate 'coaches', away from passengers
To be fair you can barely hear the engines in an 80x. The thrash pod on a FLIRT is quite noisy if you are near it, although I suppose the ends of the adjoining coaches could be used for toilets and luggage storage.
Anyway, I feel we are straying into the realms of speculation and a rap on the knuckles!
 

Zomboid

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This is the speculation zone...

Personally I don't see how they can do much better without a renewal of the rolling stock. Might be able to simplify ops down to a single loco for the train by using driving trailers. Put an ETS generator and suitable control technology in a DVT and they could just hire in freight locos for traction, and lose the tiny fleet of 57s.
 

Zomboid

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Given they're getting rid of their last HSTs that would only move the tiny fleet issue to something else, and they'd need extensive modifications to be able to provide ETS.
 

30907

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There is precedent for multiple units as sleepers, China, Norway and Austria (to varying degrees of success and true multiple unit standard)
OeBB haven't yet made the NJ driving trailers work, even on their one internal service AFAIK.
 

The exile

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OeBB haven't yet made the NJ driving trailers work, even on their one internal service AFAIK.
Though that’s presumably a feature of that particular build. Loco-hauled push-pull is hardly novel - neither here nor elsewhere.
 

Trainbike46

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What is the goal of the proposed "alternative methods of working"?

Are we aiming to reduce costs, increase capacity, increase reliability, etc.?

The exact working methods should be driven by the needs of the service, not the working method decided first and then the service adjusted to fit it!
 

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