SWR 10 Coach Train from Salisbury to Waterloo

[embers25]

I see SWR ran a 10 coach train on the 0921 from Salisbury to Waterloo and back on the 1120 Waterloo to Salisbury. They used 2x159 and 2x158 which I've never seen done before in service. Is this the first 10 car working between Salisbury and Waterloo?

 

[vikingdriver]

I see SWR ran a 10 coach train on the 0921 from Salisbury to Waterloo and back on the 1120 Waterloo to Salisbury. They used 2x159 and 2x158 which I've never seen done before in service. Is this the first 10 car working between Salisbury and Waterloo?

The 0921 is a booked 10 car in the Saturday timetable.

 

[contrex]

Unusual but that was definitely not the first.

158883/887 159010/016 on 1L28 Exeter St Davids to London Waterloo from Salisbury (at Basingstoke Saturday 16 09 23)

 

[JonathanH]

Is this the first 10 car working between Salisbury and Waterloo?

For some time a high peak weekday morning working into Waterloo was diagrammed for 10 coaches. Came back out of Waterloo on the 0850 to Salisbury.

This mentions it as far back as 2009 - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/11-coach-emu-at-east-croydon.28567/#post-377718

 

[swt_passenger]

I see SWR ran a 10 coach train on the 0921 from Salisbury to Waterloo and back on the 1120 Waterloo to Salisbury. They used 2x159 and 2x158 which I've never seen done before in service. Is this the first 10 car working between Salisbury and Waterloo?

It’s been done for many years. There was platform lengthening (P3) done at Salisbury to handle down direction splitting of 10 car trains as long ago as 2008.

 

[fgwrich]

For some time a high peak weekday morning working into Waterloo was diagrammed for 10 coaches. Came back out of Waterloo on the 0850 to Salisbury.

This mentions it as far back as 2009 - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/11-coach-emu-at-east-croydon.28567/#post-377718

Correct, it used to be my morning service into London and was bliss catching a 10 car 159 in the morning peak!

 

[boiledbeans2]

At the other extreme, occasionally, I see a 2-car 158 operating out of Waterloo.

 

[stadler]

At the other extreme, occasionally, I see a 2-car 158 operating out of Waterloo.

It seems to be happening far more often recently. On four separate occasions within the past twelve months i have seen a single two coach 158 on a London Waterloo service. I would not want to be on that during peak times. I wonder if they also ever ran a single two coach 456 on London Waterloo services when they had them.

 

[ls2270]

It seems to be happening far more often recently. On four separate occasions within the past twelve months i have seen a single two coach 158 on a London Waterloo service. I would not want to be on that during peak times. I wonder if they also ever ran a single two coach 456 on London Waterloo services when they had them.

No, single 456s were not permitted to run outside of depots when with SWT/SWR due to the risk of ‘gapping’ (ie the unit becoming stranded with no collector shoes being in contact with the third rail). This had not been the case with Southern/Connex/NSE who had regular single 456 diagrams to/from Charing Cross, London Bridge and Victoria and on the Wimbledon to West Croydon line before it was converted to Tramlink.

 

[Deepgreen]

No, single 456s were not permitted to run outside of depots when with SWT/SWR due to the risk of ‘gapping’ (ie the unit becoming stranded with no collector shoes being in contact with the third rail). This had not been the case with Southern/Connex/NSE who had regular single 456 diagrams to/from Charing Cross, London Bridge and Victoria and on the Wimbledon to West Croydon line before it was converted to Tramlink.

That never used to be a problem with 2EPBs as far as I know.

 

[nw1]

For some time a high peak weekday morning working into Waterloo was diagrammed for 10 coaches. Came back out of Waterloo on the 0850 to Salisbury.

This mentions it as far back as 2009 - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/11-coach-emu-at-east-croydon.28567/#post-377718

I have the Waterloo CWNs for Summer 2009 and December 2011 (salvaged from the UK Modern EMU group before it disappeared), it was present in both: as mentioned in the link, the specific service was the 0550 Yeovil Junction-Waterloo (1L18) returning as the 0850 as mentioned (1L19).
However in Feb 2007 it was 3x159.

 

[swt_passenger]

I have the Waterloo CWNs for Summer 2009 and December 2011 (salvaged from the UK Modern EMU group before it disappeared), it was present in both: as mentioned in the link, the specific service was the 0550 Yeovil Junction-Waterloo (1L18) returning as the 0850 as mentioned (1L19).
However in Feb 2007 it was 3x159.

That info also matches the date of the P3 platform extension, I have ie 2008.

 

[JonathanH]

That info also matches the date of the P3 platform extension, I have ie 2008.

...and the transfer of the 11 2-car 158s to SWT without which it wouldn't have been possible.

 

[swt_passenger]

...and the transfer of the 11 2-car 158s to SWT without which it wouldn't have been possible.

Yes of course, it all fits together doesn’t it. The platform extension was fairly short…

 

[py_megapixel]

Yes of course, it all fits together doesn’t it. The platform extension was fairly short…

... and also appears to be entirely fenced off from passenger use, unless I'm missing something?

 

[swt_passenger]

... and also appears to be entirely fenced off from passenger use, unless I'm missing something?

That was taken while it was still a work in progress, the central asphalt infill is not there yet. I think it’s the P2 side of the new bit that is fenced off and not in public use. It‘s possible P3‘s full length is mainly required for down trains that split, when the front unit moves forward.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Southern/Connex/NSE who had regular single 456 diagrams to/from Charing Cross, London Bridge and Victoria and on the Wimbledon to West Croydon line before it was converted to Tramlink.

The South London Line usually had a 456, although sometimes a 455

 

[SAL18]

At the other extreme, occasionally, I see a 2-car 158 operating out of Waterloo.

Before Covid the 17:47 ex Salisbury / 19:50 ex Waterloo was a booked 2 car with a trolly! Great fun to work, the diagram for the guard was that you’d arrive in on the 17:20 at Salisbury from Waterloo and go straight back up to Waterloo on the 47, PNB in London. Was probably one of my favourite turns at the time. I’ve worked a 2 car to Exeter before, now that is rare!

 

[150249]

Before Covid the 17:47 ex Salisbury / 19:50 ex Waterloo was a booked 2 car with a trolly! Great fun to work, the diagram for the guard was that you’d arrive in on the 17:20 at Salisbury from Waterloo and go straight back up to Waterloo on the 47, PNB in London. Was probably one of my favourite turns at the time. I’ve worked a 2 car to Exeter before, now that is rare!

2 car to Exeter gives flashbacks. Had 158890 by itself in December 2021. Was full and standing before I even boarded at Waterloo.

 

[Kite159]

Before Covid the 17:47 ex Salisbury / 19:50 ex Waterloo was a booked 2 car with a trolly! Great fun to work, the diagram for the guard was that you’d arrive in on the 17:20 at Salisbury from Waterloo and go straight back up to Waterloo on the 47, PNB in London. Was probably one of my favourite turns at the time. I’ve worked a 2 car to Exeter before, now that is rare!

I'm pretty sure it was the 18;47 from Salisbury and 20;50 from Waterloo which was the booked 2 coach working. Previous timetables had that unit stay at Waterloo to attach to the 159 from Exeter to form the 21;20 service.

 

[nw1]

I'm pretty sure it was the 18;47 from Salisbury and 20;50 from Waterloo which was the booked 2 coach working. Previous timetables had that unit stay at Waterloo to attach to the 159 from Exeter to form the 21;20 service.

Perhaps the wrong time frame but the Dec 2011 CWN, which I have, shows the 1950 (ex 1747 Salisbury) as a single 159. The 1847 does what you suggest, forms the RP of the 2120 (also a 159).

However, the February 2007 CWN shows the 1950 as a single 170. This seems to be the only 170 at Waterloo in that particular timetable.

Going back still further, the March 2004 CWN shows four single 170s off-peak SX, at 1003, 1103, 1403 and 1503. These are all Salisbury workings, except the 1503 which extends to Gillingham. There are a good few other 170 workings at Waterloo, attached to 159s.

Bizarrely the March 2004 CWN shows "2 159" for some workings (in combination with a 3-car 159). Never heard of a 2-car 159 so I presume these were actually 158s? I'm not sure whether the 158s and 170s co-existed on SWT, I have to admit.

 

[JonathanH]

However, the February 2007 CWN shows the 1950 as a single 170. This seems to be the only 170 at Waterloo in that particular timetable.

That is my recollection. The 1950 was non stop at Clapham Junction.

Never heard of a 2-car 159 so I presume these were actually 158s?

Has happened from time to time when a centre coach became unavailable. Whether there was one running short in 2004 I don't know.

I'm not sure whether the 158s and 170s co-existed on SWT, I have to admit.

158786 and 158789, which were acquired to work Waterloo to Bristol services, co-existed with the 170s before those two 158s went to Scotland and the 170s went to TransPennine Express. However, the 170s were directly replaced by the 8 159/1s, with I think the 11 158s coming a little bit later.

 

[Omnishambles]

Thought it was odd myself as I caught that on Saturday morning. During the week 8 car on the 0729 or 9 car on the 0759 from BSK for me which would be the 0850/0920 back. 1950 ex WAT still 3 car AFAIK

 

[AY1975]

158786 and 158789, which were acquired to work Waterloo to Bristol services, co-existed with the 170s before those two 158s went to Scotland and the 170s went to TransPennine Express. However, the 170s were directly replaced by the 8 159/1s, with I think the 11 158s coming a little bit later.

When did the direct Waterloo-Bristol services, which were withdrawn in December 2022, first start? I know they ran in at least the last two years of SWT before the start of the SWR franchise in 2017, but did they run under BR after the 159s entered service?

Since the December 2022 timetable change, a limited Salisbury-Yeovil Junction via Westbury and Yeovil Pen Mill service has continued to operate. Did such a service exist before the Waterloo-Bristol services were introduced?

 

[abn444]

When did the direct Waterloo-Bristol services, which were withdrawn in December 2022, first start? I know they ran in at least the last two years of SWT before the start of the SWR franchise in 2017, but did they run under BR after the 159s entered service?

I'm not sure exactly when they started (my guess would be some time in the 2000s) but I believe they were a remnant of a previous service run by regional railways and later Wales & West which ran to various places beyond Bristol and into south Wales and beyond, which I believe started in the mid 90s (possibly 1994).

Since the December 2022 timetable change, a limited Salisbury-Yeovil Junction via Westbury and Yeovil Pen Mill service has continued to operate. Did such a service exist before the Waterloo-Bristol services were introduced?

Those started much later, a couple of years before the end of the SWT franchise from what I remember

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the 3 SWT services to/from Bristol started sometime in the 2004-2007 period, probably about the time the first two 158s arrived from Scotrail?

EDIT: 158786 and 158789 were shown as with SWT in SW livery in the Platform 5 book 2006 edition, so that suggests 2005 or earlier?

I think there may have been ECS services via Westbury to retain diversionary route knowledge long before they were made into passenger services, but I’m not sure of the dates. Is it possible someone has an old timetable or CWNs from the mid 2000s?

 

[JonathanH]

I think the 3 SWT services to/from Bristol started sometime in the 2004-2007 period, probably about the time the first two 158s arrived from Scotrail?

EDIT: 158786 and 158789 were shown as with SWT in SW livery in the Platform 5 book 2006 edition, so that suggests 2005 or earlier?

158786 and 158789 came to South West Trains from Central Trains, after it received the Midland Mainline 170s displaced by 222s, and went on to Scotrail.

Scotrail released 158745 and 158746 to Wessex Trains, and 158737/742/743/744 to TransPennine Express in a 170-led cascade.

 

[swt_passenger]

158786 and 158789 came to South West Trains from Central Trains, after it received the Midland Mainline 170s displaced by 222s, and went on to Scotrail.

Scotrail released 158745 and 158746 to Wessex Trains, and 158737/742/743/744 to TransPennine Express in a 170-led cascade.

Ah thanks, people often referred to them as the “Scotrail SWR units” but must have meant in their future rather than their past… IIRC the latter transfer was to do with SWT ending up with all their 11 x 158s owned by the same Rosco? Seems it all happened quite a while ago now…