First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[kernowbususer]

The potted history...

Up until the formation of First Bus, services across the Tamar were provided by Western National. This was the case into First days with outbases at Callington, sub depot at Torpoint and running from the main Plymouth depot.

As First progressed (if you can say that), services around Looe and Liskeard (and later Callington?) passed to Western Greyhound who had a depot at Liskeard. In advance of the collapse of WG, this depot was sold to Plymouth Citybus. PCB was engaged in the third Plymouth bus war at this point, and had extended to competing to Torpoint etc against First. On the sale of First's Plymouth depot to Stagecoach, the Torpoint routes were ceded to PCB as part of a peace deal but Stagecoach continued operating to Saltash.

Think that's roughly it.

South East Cormwall services passed through Liskeard & District Omnibus Company and DAC Coaches operation before Western Greyhound.

 

[henryb]

Truro and Penwith College contracts have been lost by FSW. TBA who winner is, but I’d assume Go Cornwall or Stagecoach

 

[Goldfish62]

Truro and Penwith College contracts have been lost by FSW. TBA who winner is, but I’d assume Go Cornwall or Stagecoach

Reported by two separate sources (unverified) that it's Go Cornwall.

 

[fgwrich]

Reported by two separate sources (unverified) that it's Go Cornwall.

Ouch.

 

[embers25]

Stagecoach didn't bid them I thought so it has to be Go Cornwall.

 

[fgwrich]

Stagecoach didn't bid them I thought so it has to be Go Cornwall.

Indeed, Stagecoach reportedly didn’t bid. That leaves First Cornwall with a much reduced operation consisting of their commercial bus network (approx 40 to 45 buses) Truro Park and Ride / Park for Truro and the Truronian / Flixbus operations. An uphill slope to climb should they enter the bidding for the TFC Tendered contracts next year.

And I still wonder how much First’s centralised management approach is having a cause and effect on Kernow.

 

[Andyh82]

Stagecoach didn't bid them I thought so it has to be Go Cornwall.

Doesn’t surprise me that Stagecoach didn’t bid. Truro college services run from as far away as Lands End, Lizard, Padstow and Callington, you can only run it with either loads of outstations or loads of dead running.

I presume this means that First will be closing Bodmin, Callington, Padstow ‘field next to Tesco’, Plymouth and Winkleigh outstations

I wouldn’t be surprised if Falmouth went as well as Camborne and Summercourt will have spare capacity

In fact GCB might have to relocate some of their outstations, for example Callington is just a small yard with space for about 5 or 6 buses, there is no room for any extra Truro college work.

This confirms that “Plymouth Citybus” have won the contract

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2025/W23/847774046

 

[henryb]

Well Stagecoach are creating a Bodmin outstation /depot so the tender would seem more in reach…

 

[embers25]

Bodmin is a long way in journey time from Penzance.

 

[Accelerator59]

Anybody know what’s happening with 44534 which hasn’t tracked for a couple of weeks and a few B9s which haven’t tracked for a few months?

 

[Andyh82]

Anybody know what’s happening with 44534 which hasn’t tracked for a couple of weeks and a few B9s which haven’t tracked for a few months?

Remember that schools and Cornwall college services don’t track. These vehicles could be in use every school day

 

[Bazer]

Anybody know what’s happening with 44534 which hasn’t tracked for a couple of weeks and a few B9s which haven’t tracked for a few months?

44534 Sustained accident damage a few weeks ago after being rear ended.

 

[Simon75]

Do the outstations have many facilities, or are they like most just parking?

 

[OptareOlympus]

Something seems off in all these losses. To lose some, yes, but to lose everything so soon after winding down the tourist and open top products and closing Helston might suggest a planned withdrawal.

Is there any evidence that First even submitted tenders/bids for the lost contracts? With Cornwall Council £1.4 billion in debt, First may have realised that next years TfC tenders will be nowhere near the size of 2020 and it might not be worth carrying the losses for the next year.

 

[DaveHarries]

Doesn’t surprise me that Stagecoach didn’t bid. Truro college services run from as far away as Lands End, Lizard, Padstow and Callington, you can only run it with either loads of outstations or loads of dead running.

I presume this means that First will be closing Bodmin, Callington, Padstow ‘field next to Tesco’, Plymouth and Winkleigh outstations

I wouldn’t be surprised if Falmouth went as well as Camborne and Summercourt will have spare capacity

In fact GCB might have to relocate some of their outstations, for example Callington is just a small yard with space for about 5 or 6 buses, there is no room for any extra Truro college work.

This confirms that “Plymouth Citybus” have won the contract

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2025/W23/847774046

GA winning the contract for £9,204,682 should put a bit of money into the College coffers!

It does indeed sound as if the future isn't looking too great for the drivers at those outstations - I presume they are only used for college contracts? I don't know - but I wonder if GA will try and get the Callington outstation and perhaps the Bodmin one. I don't know if they would have use for a yard at Winkleigh unless they were able to find a means of operating other routes from there but I reckon they could base the Winkleigh routes out of Okehampton. Either way I can see GA and Stagecoach trying to recruit the drivers who work from them and both operators will also need extra vehicles: no doubt they are already trying to get some.

GA acquiring First's yard at Callington could be a good move: there are no buildings on there for any office space but it is a good size site. As for Falmouth I would think they might keep that for the U4 and other routes in the Falmouth area: I see on VOSA it has a licence for 25 vehicles there.

Dave

 

[Andyh82]

Go Ahead’s Bodmin outstation is already better than First’s, as it a modern location on an industrial estate. First’s is very old school hidden down a back country lane like something from Western National days.


Do we know who won the school contracts, or is it a mix of operators?

There doesn’t seem to be any sign of that tender online, the only one I can find is the original one from 2020

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I presume this means that First will be closing Bodmin, Callington, Padstow ‘field next to Tesco’, Plymouth and Winkleigh outstations

I wouldn’t be surprised if Falmouth went as well as Camborne and Summercourt will have spare capacity

Most of the outbases will probably go but, with a fleet requirement so reduced, you'll have to see more than just some outbases going.

Something seems off in all these losses. To lose some, yes, but to lose everything so soon after winding down the tourist and open top products and closing Helston might suggest a planned withdrawal.

Is there any evidence that First even submitted tenders/bids for the lost contracts? With Cornwall Council £1.4 billion in debt, First may have realised that next years TfC tenders will be nowhere near the size of 2020 and it might not be worth carrying the losses for the next year.

First told their drivers that they had been unsuccessful in their tender submissions. More likely that corporate commercial policy decrees a certain return rather than anything more sinister.

Also, if the tender packages coming up are smaller, then there's less chance of being able to support the creation of an outbase and better suited to a business with an existing depot network...?

GA winning the contract for £9,204,682 should put a bit of money into the College coffers!

Eh? Aren't the College paying Go Ahead?

I don't know - but I wonder if GA will try and get the Callington outstation and perhaps the Bodmin one.

As @Andyh82 mentions, the First Bodmin is tucked away though I'd disagree that it's like a Western National one. More like what it is... a scratchy and basic yard that looks like a small coach companies premises, complete with a small workshop (disused) that can't accommodate a double decker. Go Ahead's Bodmin yard is big enough especially as they're losing the Callywith work.

 

[Andyh82]

Most of the outbases will probably go but, with a fleet requirement so reduced, you'll have to see more than just some outbases going.

They’d obviously be keeping Camborne. Although it’s classed as an outstation, Summercourt feels like a depot and has just had electric charging points added, so they’d be keeping that as well. Penzance would have to be kept for geographical reasons

Falmouth is just parking at the side of a warehouse.

Could they relocate everything they do at Truro to Camborne and Summercourt?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They’d obviously be keeping Camborne. Although it’s classed as an outstation, Summercourt feels like a depot and has just had electric charging points added, so they’d be keeping that as well. Penzance would have to be kept for geographical reasons

Falmouth is just parking at the side of a warehouse.

Could they relocate everything they do at Truro to Camborne and Summercourt?

Closing Falmouth would save relatively little. You’d struggle to retain four depots for 100 vehicles too

 

[Goldfish62]

Is there any evidence that First even submitted tenders/bids for the lost contracts? With Cornwall Council £1.4 billion in debt, First may have realised that next years TfC tenders will be nowhere near the size of 2020 and it might not be worth carrying the losses for the next year.

It's not next year. It's 2027 that the tenders will be issued, for a 2028 start. A lot can happen between now and then. If the council had already made a decision to drastically downsize the supported network they'd be doing it now, not waiting another three years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Tuesday at 06:26 ==

They’d obviously be keeping Camborne. Although it’s classed as an outstation, Summercourt feels like a depot and has just had electric charging points added, so they’d be keeping that as well. Penzance would have to be kept for geographical reasons

Falmouth is just parking at the side of a warehouse.

Could they relocate everything they do at Truro to Camborne and Summercourt?

Broadly agree with all that.

Although I think nothing's off the table. Remember that they closed Bridgwater, BoS's main engineering and MOT centre.

I don't know how commercially successful the EV chargers at Summercourt are, but given that it's a substantial premises and relatively remote from the slimmed down operations it would seem a potential candidate for closure. Retaining it just because of the EV chargers could come under the category of "Sunken Cost fallacy".

 

[jammy36]

As @Andyh82 mentions, the First Bodmin is tucked away though I'd disagree that it's like a Western National one. More like what it is... a scratchy and basic yard that looks like a small coach companies premises, complete with a small workshop (disused) that can't accommodate a double decker. Go Ahead's Bodmin yard is big enough especially as they're losing the Callywith work.

I believe First's Bodmin outstation is Keith Webber's old yard.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I believe First's Bodmin outstation is Keith Webber's old yard.

It is indeed - hence my comment that it looks like a former coach firms’ premises

 

[OptareOlympus]

It'll be interesting to see what fleet remains in Cornwall. If the MMCs stay and dozens of B9s head to Ensign, then First are staying. If the MMCs move to Weymouth to replace the streetlites and the Volvos stay, then they're selling the commercial remains to Stagecoach.

Has anyone worked out how many vehicles would no longer be required?

 

[LAIRA]

It'll be interesting to see what fleet remains in Cornwall. If the MMCs stay and dozens of B9s head to Ensign, then First are staying. If the MMCs move to Weymouth to replace the streetlites and the Volvos stay, then they're selling the commercial remains to Stagecoach.

Has anyone worked out how many vehicles would no longer be required?

Checking Bustimes last evening 72 buses were used in service yesterday. Just a rough idea.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Checking Bustimes last evening 72 buses were used in service yesterday. Just a rough idea.

Having a look just now...

1 - 1
24/27 - 3
29 - 1
17/17a - 6
87 - 5
P&R - 5 (but think it goes up to 7)
M6 - 3
T1/T2 - 18
U1 - 6
U2 - 2
U4 - 4

That comes to 56 without any Truronian or Flixbus.

I hate to speculate about any depot (not nice for staff to read/hear rumours) but think that ship has sailed in this case. For a much reduced fleet, I think it comes to a question of the two eastern depots. Discussing offline, I thought Truro might be vulnerable. On reflection, it might be that Truro be retained, absorb what's at Falmouth and Summercourt, with that relinquished even if it means a write off of the infrastructure investment.

I may be wrong but I think the Falmouth outstation has been there since the original depot closed in 1980.

 

[Goldfish62]

Having a look just now...

1 - 1
24/27 - 3
29 - 1
17/17a - 6
87 - 5
P&R - 5 (but think it goes up to 7)
M6 - 3
T1/T2 - 18
U1 - 6
U2 - 2
U4 - 4

I've come to 59 PVR including the summer enhancements on the 1/1A and 17/17A, but I may very well be one or two out. However, if that is correct, plus around 10% spares gives a TVR of 65 (excluding Truronian/Flix/P&R).

So potentially the local bus fleet could be:

51 E400MMCs
7 Gemini 2s (the ex-Doncaster ones)
4 E200MMCs
4 Sprinters

Total: 66

But that's just an educated guess!

 

[henryb]

Does anyone know how Truronian is as a business? would flix fall under that as its a 5 year contract?

 

[MarkC]

First have lost Truro and Penwith college contracts to Go Cornwall https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/first-bus-loses-major-truro-10234635

 

[Goldfish62]

First have lost Truro and Penwith college contracts to Go Cornwall https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/first-bus-loses-major-truro-10234635

Indeed. We've been discussing nothing else on this thread since yesterday evening.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Tuesday at 18:30 ==

It'll be interesting to see what fleet remains in Cornwall. If the MMCs stay and dozens of B9s head to Ensign, then First are staying. If the MMCs move to Weymouth to replace the streetlites and the Volvos stay, then they're selling the commercial remains to Stagecoach.

Has anyone worked out how many vehicles would no longer be required?

Good point re what stays and what moves.

And of course they could most probably sell to Stagecoach without attracting the interest of the CMA. The same could not be said of any sale to GoAhead.

 

[Andyh82]

I've come to 59 PVR including the summer enhancements on the 1/1A and 17/17A, but I may very well be one or two out. However, if that is correct, plus around 10% spares gives a TVR of 65 (excluding Truronian/Flix/P&R).

So potentially the local bus fleet could be:

51 E400MMCs
7 Gemini 2s (the ex-Doncaster ones)
4 E200MMCs
4 Sprinters

Total: 66

But that's just an educated guess!

I’ve calculated the PVR as 62, there is also stuff like the Eden park and ride on top, assuming that still runs?

Is probably suggest a higher spares ratio than 10% considering some services have a bespoke requirement (I.e Mousehole that seems to have 66% spares ratio at the moment)

I’d come to broadly the same sort of idea as you, just with the old solo and a couple of older E200s adding as well