Which is fine, but equally if you ask for a specific ticket or combination of tickets they should sell them to you, as my local station does, but @yorkie’s experience at Bedford and others show that some of them can’t deliver on the base requirements either.
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Preference to buy tickets from a ticket office
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There are also ticket offices which will proactively offer splits, especially ones which all trains stop at, or on seasons. It isn’t quite as cut and dray as they can’t, as there are interpretations of the rules which allow them to.
Haywain
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No, there are not.
Which interpretations are you thinking of?
Undercutting fares by advising customers to buy a combination of them is a huge no-no when it comes to impartial retailing.
styles
Member
I like the idea of buying from a ticket office, but in practice I find either larger stations tend to have queues (and someone will sometimes shuffle you over to a self service ticket machine), or I'm having to explain what combination of split tickets I'm wanting to staff at smaller stations who are more used to issuing simple day return tickets to people not confident using the self service machines.
That's before reiterating the point in the original thread, that I'm missing out on cashback or Club Avanti journeys or LNER Perks (yes Perks can be claimed retrospectively but that's more faff), etc.
I support keeping most ticket offices open for those who need them, but I'll only bother with them myself if I'm desperate.
That's before reiterating the point in the original thread, that I'm missing out on cashback or Club Avanti journeys or LNER Perks (yes Perks can be claimed retrospectively but that's more faff), etc.
I support keeping most ticket offices open for those who need them, but I'll only bother with them myself if I'm desperate.
I am absolutely 100% sure there are at least two ticket offices which do this which I’ve been to. I asked at one and they said that it was some kind of interpretation of something about having to sell the best value ticket, and that they were in some kind of deadlock with management over whether they could do it or not. I’m not saying that’s the correct interpretation.
Haywain
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If they are selling unrequested split tickets for journeys where through tickets are available, I will confidently say they are wrong.
voyagerdude220
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I can assure you that whilst it obviously varies between different operators who run different Ticket Offices (it could even vary between different Station Managers within the same company!) where I work I've never been criticised for offering split tickets.
Particularly seeing many websites will automatically offer them. I always make it clear if I'm offering a split ticket any conditions they need to follow to make sure they're valid.
Trainbike46
Established Member
This may be a stupid question, but how is the forum's website (and certain other websites) allowed to offer splits? Wouldn't they be bound by the same rules?
I think they way they seemed to see it is they are offering the customer a better deal and making them aware of the drawbacks.
As I say not saying it is allowed just what they do. I can certainly see their point that they should be able to when they are effectively competing against Trainline, who sells splits with far less explanation.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I believe online retailers indeed are not bound by the same rules, no - hence the abilities of TOC websites to bias towards their services in various ways.
The recognised interpretation of the TSA is that the cheapest valid through fare for the intended journey must be sold. Split tickets should only be suggested if there is no through fare, or it's not valid for the route/operator that the journey involves.
As you say, many ticket offices recommend split tickets anyway but that is not really in compliance with the TSA.
This issue has already arisen on routes such as the Cambrian Line, where many stations have no ticket buying facilities and the conductors who sell tickets only have machines capable of printing tickets on PRT (aka bog roll). They are simply unable to sell any tickets that have a Maltese cross or other Underground validity; the same goes for collecting ToD bookings.
Some mobile TISs are better at handling this situation and can take payment for a ticket that is then issued as ToD, to be collected at the passenger's (presumably larger) destination or interchange station.
But in the long run, the only options I see are:
- CCST continues to exist for journeys involving the Tube or DLR, but otherwise becomes very hard to get hold of. Probably the outcome I would bet on despite all the knashing of teeth by the TOCs, RDG etc.
- Through tickets involving Tube or DLR validity cease to be offered. This would entail the withdrawal of the Maltese cross' cross-London validity, and through fares to Underground Zones. I'd say this is possible but not currently on the agenda.
- CCST gets withdrawn because the above forms of Underground or DLR validity become available in digital format, either on smartcards (more likely IMHO as much of the infrastructure is already there) or as eTickets (less likely as it would require a step-change in TfL's parochial attitudes, plus a fair amount of investment)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Isn't TfL already looking at e-ticket scanning as a limited trial at some interchanges? I'm sure I read it on here that it was.
I grew up with Newcastle ticket office which actually had and continues to have some very knowledgeable staff - though I seem to find myself in there about once a year these days. The last time I was there I found myself explaining a TADA (Travel Agents Discount)form to someone who's been working in there for a considerable number of years, and I was lucky that she had the patience and enthusiasm to sit through it with me and issue me what I was after. Even then - I'm aware that some staff there do get things wrong!
Meanwhile I spent my student years in Sheffield whose ticket office would make it their mission to be as awkward as possible - going so far as to refuse to issue tickets, refuse to do ToD when the TVMs weren't working properly and even complain about me to colleagues when I'd for something 'unusual' (in the last instance a panicked hand went over the microphone).
I've also had quite a number of ticket offices down south who just didn't know how to do something, didn't want to know how to do it and would get quite defensive if you asked. I was also accused of fare evasion by an extremely unpleasant man at Stroud several years ago when I asked for a ticket from a station that wasn't Stroud! Honourable mention also to Dartford station - I asked for a Boundary Zone ticket, was sold something else, then given a load of lip for making them refund it and issue me what I actually asked for.
The exception to this, as another poster has mentioned, is London Bridge - I asked them for a ranger ticket well out of area once and the lady behind the counter didn't even blink. Issued in seconds.
Put simply, it isn't worth the hassle most of the time. I don't want to debate with someone why they should issue me a ticket, or hear about how they've been doing a job for a certain number of years which automatically makes me wrong, I want a ticket and to be on my way.
Meanwhile I spent my student years in Sheffield whose ticket office would make it their mission to be as awkward as possible - going so far as to refuse to issue tickets, refuse to do ToD when the TVMs weren't working properly and even complain about me to colleagues when I'd for something 'unusual' (in the last instance a panicked hand went over the microphone).
I've also had quite a number of ticket offices down south who just didn't know how to do something, didn't want to know how to do it and would get quite defensive if you asked. I was also accused of fare evasion by an extremely unpleasant man at Stroud several years ago when I asked for a ticket from a station that wasn't Stroud! Honourable mention also to Dartford station - I asked for a Boundary Zone ticket, was sold something else, then given a load of lip for making them refund it and issue me what I actually asked for.
The exception to this, as another poster has mentioned, is London Bridge - I asked them for a ranger ticket well out of area once and the lady behind the counter didn't even blink. Issued in seconds.
Put simply, it isn't worth the hassle most of the time. I don't want to debate with someone why they should issue me a ticket, or hear about how they've been doing a job for a certain number of years which automatically makes me wrong, I want a ticket and to be on my way.
Another reason to prefer a ticket office is to buy tickets such as off-peak returns slightly before the time they become valid, for example buying a ticket for a 09:31 departure at 09:25. Some ticket vending machines refuse to sell these tickets then. And, yes, I know a circumvention can be to buy the ticket online and even print it at the same machine that refuses to sell it directly. But it’s a faff.
But bad ticket offices will also refuse to sell these tickets then, too, I accept.
But bad ticket offices will also refuse to sell these tickets then, too, I accept.
Kite159
Veteran Member
They can still sell you those tickets, but it will be sold as a TOD code requiring the customer to collect the tickets from a TVM.
Haywain
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That doesn’t mean it’s correct according to the TSA.
Interesting as I use ticket machines as the most frequent option. There are often queues at the ticket office and I'm often running a little bit late meaning the ticket machine is the fastest option.
Still get credit card size tickets too.
I'm sadly not organised enough to book the ticket from home and in any case, just about all my journeys are relatively local these days so I have little opportunity to make use of advance fares or ticket-splitting.
You’ll probably find the queues happening more and more as some TOCs are very tightly controlling recruitment within Ticket Offices these days.
The question regarding Split Tickets is one that has been going around for a long time and it makes the booking clerk look like they’re being dishonest when they quote a price, only for the customer to turn around their phone and say “ but it’s says x on here“ when in reality it’s only what they have been trained to do, certainly I have seen complete meltdowns from customers in the ticket office when they’re asked for where the ticket is split (due to them fundamentally not understanding what Trainline is offering them)
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Possibly also because their S&B machines currently cannot offer advance purchase tickets and the booking office can?
Also, and more than likely, is that the customer is a visitor and is new so needs some reassurance as to what they are purchasing is correct and they can get advice at the same time.
voyagerdude220
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I didn't say it makes it correct or incorrect. Also I suspect the majority of staff are unaware that we're (allegedly) not supposed to proactively offer split tickets, unless they've been specifically told not to.
They aren't allowed to do it, that is why they are in "deadlock with their management" over it. There really is no room for interpretation in the TSA if they work at an Impartial Point of Sale.
6-30 THE IMPARTIALITY OBLIGATION
(1) The general rule
(a) An Operator which Sells Fares, or provides information about them, on a train or at an Impartial Point of Sale or an Impartial Information Centre must act fairly and impartially between Operators. Any such information that is provided must be factual, accurate and impartial.
Here, the rule is partly there so that train companies - which at privatisation were intended to compete in some way with one another - do not undercut each other's business models by telling customers about loopholes.
6-31 goes on to say the circumstance when a split ticket may be proactively offered (my bold), which is basically "no through fare available":
6-31 MATCHING OF FARES TO PRODUCE A THROUGH JOURNEY
Where, at an Impartial Point of Sale, a person indicates that he wishes to make a journey for which a Fare is not available, the Operator which operates that Impartial Point of Sale must offer to Sell him a combination of two or more of the Fares offered for Sale at that Impartial Point of Sale which between them are valid for the whole journey unless such a combination is not possible using the Fares that are offered for Sale there. The Operator must use its reasonable endeavours to ensure that the combined Fares meet the Purchaser's requirements.
The forum site is not an Impartial Point of Sale. Same agreement in force, different rule applies.
Hmmm. Reading the following:
(a) An Operator which Sells Fares, or provides information about them, on a train or at an Impartial Point of Sale or an Impartial Information Centre must act fairly and impartially between Operators. Any such information that is provided must be factual, accurate and impartial.
I could interpret that as an obligation to consider all available fares, including splits where appropriate. And I would certainly consider a preference for the train operator's own fares over another's as anything but impartial. Has this principle ever been tested?
(a) An Operator which Sells Fares, or provides information about them, on a train or at an Impartial Point of Sale or an Impartial Information Centre must act fairly and impartially between Operators. Any such information that is provided must be factual, accurate and impartial.
I could interpret that as an obligation to consider all available fares, including splits where appropriate. And I would certainly consider a preference for the train operator's own fares over another's as anything but impartial. Has this principle ever been tested?
The obligation is to act impartially between train companies.
What about the text here makes you think one train company’s staff can, for example, proactively undercut another train company’s fares, or incentivise travellers to use or not use a particular train company?
This has been tested often; CrossCountry routinely raised complaints about booking offices proactively offering splits to undercut the through fare. These were all upheld to my knowledge.
Perhaps Travelcards or other multi-modal tickets had something to do with it.
There has been mention before that TfL had agreed to add Aztec readers to barriers at interchanges. I've not seen a timescale though.
Not universally. Our machines can't do that. I wish they did.
I've had passengers absolutely insist on being sold what they can see on Trainline, even when I've pointed out that part of the split was a Day Return and they intended to return tomorrow. They insisted so I sold the fare (warning them very clearly about the validity). Luckily the cost of a new single for the portion that would have expired would only have brought the total up to 10p over what the through fare would have been. You can't reason with stupid, but I tried my best.
I fail to see within the quoted text any prohibition on offering splits where a through fare is available. Only an obligation to offer them where one isn't.
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No surprises given how ridiculous their through fares are.
I suspect though that there is a bit of a difference (in practice if not in law) between splits which take place mid-journey and splits at an interchange. The ones I've offered as a guard have generally been the latter sort. I doubt that anyone would notice or care about those. Certainly local management must be aware and don't care.
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If you offer splits proactively you aren’t acting impartially towards other train companies.
“The fare is £100 for that journey” (however with this trick I can circumvent that for you and save you £50).
It’s not about being impartial to the customer.
This is a very long established principle from the dawn of privatisation although perhaps it is not covered in retail training any more. It was in my training, and I didn’t even sell tickets. I did handle a lot of technical complaints relating to fares though.
I think it’s bold to assume that there are more than a handful of managers at any given TOC which understand the intricacies of fares, much less the TSA.
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It’s certainly nothing I raise concerns about as long as the conditions are clearly explained to the customer.
Some managers are a bit stuck in the past and think that split tickets are a niche crank thing which the railway shouldn’t be getting involved in. In reality, Trainline have brought this into the mainstream and I see no reason why booking offices shouldn’t be allowed to offer them.
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Trainbike46
Established Member
Maybe I'm missing something, but what here state that you can't offer splits, provided you offer them equally for services by all operators (including the operator operating the booking office)?
If the rule only applies to TOCs, how is it that some TOC websites offer splits?
If the rule only applies to ticket offices, that seems rather unbalanced!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Which TOC websites currently offer splits? LNER did for a bit but don't now (as it undermined their fare increase trial*) but it was just split Advances issued as a single ticket with a discount. The Trainline TOC engine can do it as it was briefly switched on for WMT but it was switched off again fairly sharpish so it was probably done by mistake.
I do like the no-fee simple splits Trainline does on the day of travel (both routes I commonly use to London save a couple of quid if you split), but it would be handy to be able to do them the day before travel without a fee and without the effort of buying the two tickets separately
* LNER at the moment is doing a lot to advertise Trainline, as on almost all London-Edinburgh journeys a split is cheaper than a through ticket, though obviously there are the other workarounds no retailer can sell those unless you specifically search for them.
It doesn’t apply only to TOCs. It applies only to Impartial Points of Sale (ticket offices, on board staff - I believe some old telesales lines were also Impartial).
A TOC website is not an Impartial Point of Sale.
Trainbike46
Established Member
Chiltern did it for a while, but I stopped using that website so it may well have changed again.
Which is unfortunate, though hopefully trainsplit is also benefitting from that?I do like the no-fee simple splits Trainline does on the day of travel (both routes I commonly use to London save a couple of quid if you split), but it would be handy to be able to do them the day before travel without a fee and without the effort of buying the two tickets separately
* LNER at the moment is doing a lot to advertise Trainline, as on almost all London-Edinburgh journeys a split is cheaper than a through ticket, though obviously there are the other workarounds no retailer can sell those unless you specifically search for them.
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That seems like a very arbitrary set!