Preference to buy tickets from a ticket office

[AlterEgo]

You pop the journey into the journey planner mode and it keeps the journey, so the time will change with the split. It's very basic stuff in a ticket office and incredibly simple. It's nowhere near as complicated as you're trying to make out.

Yes, but how do you know where to split the tickets? Ticket office journey planners don't do this, do they?

It's impossible to know where all the best value split points would be for the majority of journeys.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Yes, but how do you know where to split the tickets? Ticket office journey planners don't do this, do they?

It's impossible to know where all the best value split points would be for the majority of journeys.

We know the regular split points for a lot of journeys. There are websites that can use to check too

 

[AlterEgo]

We know the regular split points for a lot of journeys. There are websites that can use to check too

Uh oh, trod on a land mine there.

 

[OscarH]

We know the regular split points for a lot of journeys. There are websites that can use to check too

Can I suggest you contact those websites with sufficient information about your TIS machine to identify when it's that using the website? They'd love to know so they can block people who are blatantly abusing the site - hosting these systems and paying for developers to maintain them isn't cheap, and causing load and inflating Look-to-Book ratios when you have no intention to book is frowned upon by decent people for a reason. If the TOC actually wanted that service, I'm sure they could come to a suitable arrangement the proper way.

 

[Adam Williams]

Uh oh, trod on a land mine there.

We actually had a TOC complaint where a ticket office member of staff a) readily admitted to using the site for this purpose in writing and b) was complaining about the way in which we retailed same-day Advances because it was "unfair" to ticket office staff.

My suggestion was that we should offer the train operator a paid license to use Raileasy's service as their TIS supplier, since they were clearly unsatisfied with their existing one!

Beyond the loss of the commission and wasted compute resource, what makes this even more frustrating though is that RDG RDG's supplier are being incredibly difficult with retailers today about the ratio of "looks to books" when it comes to availability. Every person that looks up tickets in a split with no intention of purchasing them contributes to making these figures worse.

 

[cool110]

...they are typically asking for something like "a return to Leeds", which would easily be purchasable from a TVM if they don't want to book online...

Perhaps at York, but as discussed elsewhere Avanti TVMs are so awful it's anything but easy. I've seen the ticket office at Preston serve 3 people in the time needed to get a return out of one of those.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Just for clarity, it's rare we'd use a website to check a split. Experience means we know where to split for most journey options we're faced with. But if a journey is still more than a customer wants to pay, it's a weapon in the armoury. But I'd say it's used once a month at most. But for most of our journeys, of course, we're starting at one station so the permutations are a lot less and thus we know the good places to split.

 

[TUC]

Getting out of the door is busy enough on a morning. Why would I want to leave 10 minutes or more earlier when I can just but a ticket online, arrive at the station and jump on a train?

 

[Trainbike46]

We actually had a TOC complaint where a ticket office member of staff a) readily admitted to using the site for this purpose in writing and b) was complaining about the way in which we retailed same-day Advances because it was "unfair" to ticket office staff.

My suggestion was that we should offer the train operator a paid license to use Raileasy's service as their TIS supplier, since they were clearly unsatisfied with their existing one!

Beyond the loss of the commission and wasted compute resource, what makes this even more frustrating though is that RDG RDG's supplier are being incredibly difficult with retailers today about the ratio of "looks to books" when it comes to availability. Every person that looks up tickets in a split with no intention of purchasing them contributes to making these figures worse.

Could the Raileasy engine (including split ticketing) be used as a TIS supplier for ticket offices?

I'd assume there would be a need to do some work, but is that a realistic proposition (assuming for the minute that the TSA rules that apparently prevent split tickets being actively offered at ticket offices were to be removed)?

 

[Adam Williams]

Could the Raileasy engine (including split ticketing) be used as a TIS supplier for ticket offices?

I'd assume there would be a need to do some work, but is that a realistic proposition (assuming for the minute that the TSA rules that apparently prevent split tickets being actively offered at ticket offices were to be removed)?

There would be some contractual and technical barriers, but I don't see why not hypothetically. I don't think they'd be insurmountable.

TOCs are increasingly doing E-Ticket fulfilment at TVMs etc as well, so may not even need to worry about e.g. implementing support for paper roll ticket printing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TOCs are increasingly doing E-Ticket fulfilment at TVMs etc as well, so may not even need to worry about e.g. implementing support for paper roll ticket printing.

By that you mean "buy your ticket at the booking office but you only get a piece of paper with a code on it and have to queue again to collect it over there at the TVM"?

If I've read that right, the railway has excelled even its own standards at shoddy customer service. Making customers queue twice because you can't be bothered having a printer at your booking office desk, indeed.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I buy all my tickets online, helped by significant kickback (typically 5-12%).

I guess like everyone on this forum I have had some pretty atrocious experiences over the years, where railway staff have sworn blind that a perfectly valid ticket isn't.

The latest one a few weeks ago was when an Avanti conductor/guard/customer host? challenged me using an Off Peak ticket from Runcorn to London Euston on an early morning service

...but it was a Friday.

I can call up their website on my phone in a matter of seconds and confirm that this is valid.

"If you're travelling with Avanti West Coast, you can start your weekend early with Off-Peak Fridays - travel at any time Friday if you're departing or heading to London Euston..."

This is absolutely basic stuff that railway staff fail at.

At least buying online will often give me an itinerary that I can present to counteract such nonsense.

Technically, there are an awful lot of Off Peak tickets that do still have restrictions on a Friday, even on Avanti - generally where the ticket is priced by a different train operator and doesn't have the usual Avanti 2C/9I/VK/VN/3A/5F restriction codes.

The individual restriction codes still apply, even on a Friday.

If it's one of these, you're absolutely right, and the Train Manager should have known.

What ticket did you actually hold?

You can make the argument about the Avanti website - but you haven't shared the link to see if it mentions some exclusions, and in any event, it would be something you'd have to address with customer relations later in most circumstances.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Technically, there are an awful lot of Off Peak tickets that do still have restrictions on a Friday, even on Avanti - generally where the ticket is priced by a different train operator and doesn't have the usual Avanti 2C/9I/VK/VN/3A/5F restriction codes.

Even more curiously, the Avanti restriction codes hold electronic restriction data that prevents them being sold on WMT services at "peak times" on a Friday. However the text of the restriction carries no mention of it, so you can buy one at a TVM and use WMT services if you want. A very bizarre situation given that (as XC do) it is possible to get TOC specific stuff put in restriction codes and actually bar WMT rather than just falsely not selling tickets with an itinerary on their services.

 

[yorkie]

You pop the journey into the journey planner mode and it keeps the journey, so the time will change with the split. It's very basic stuff in a ticket office and incredibly simple. It's nowhere near as complicated as you're trying to make out.

OK, so the next departure time will automatically change to the arrival time of the previous ticket? If so, that makes it a lot easier but still doesn't guarantee you will be selecting the next available onward service to remain on the same train, so care does still need to be taken to ensure everything matches up.

When a change of train occurs, you also need to ensure you allow appropriate minimum connection times (do you have to look this up manually?)

The best deal is very customer specific, some passengers don't mind paying for one through ticket, some don't mind lots of tickets to save a few quid. Others don't mind one or two splits, but don't want loads. Others only want to split where they change trains. As ticket office staff we can establish what works for them and tailor it to them. Price isn't everything for everyone.

You've just demonstrated how a request for (say) Scarborough to St Ives could be interpreted in a multitude of different ways, and the possibilities for changes, splits etc are huge. Do you have an easy way to look up all the possible itineraries and, for each itinerary, the possible splits automatically, or is it a manual process?

Of course, in reality, you'd rarely get such a request, because the vast majority of people making such journeys would surely prefer to book online.

Generally, people wanting advance tickets book online. That's fine. We can, and do, sell them, but only in small quantities. People come to the ticket office because they want advice or something more bespoke than websites are offering them.

But this thread is about whether it is better to buy from a ticket office; seeking advice is something else entirely.

 

[Adam Williams]

By that you mean "buy your ticket at the booking office but you only get a piece of paper with a code on it and have to queue again to collect it over there at the TVM"?

They generate a PDF E-Ticket and then just print it on A4 paper!

 

[Bletchleyite]

They generate a PDF E-Ticket and then just print it on A4 paper!

Can't see an issue with that (Deutsche Bahn now print tickets from booking offices using a laser printer on A4, albeit on pink and blue preprinted CIV ticket templates), but sending people to a TVM because it needs to be on CCST (e.g. via London) because you can't be bothered with a CCST printer on the desk is shoddy service.

 

[redreni]

Getting out of the door is busy enough on a morning. Why would I want to leave 10 minutes or more earlier when I can just but a ticket online, arrive at the station and jump on a train?

You shouldn't. I use ticket offices a lot, but I'm generally on my way home and buying a ticket for the following day or the day after.

 

[Hadders]

They generate a PDF E-Ticket and then just print it on A4 paper!

Couldn’t they just email it to the customer? So they get a ticket they can show on their phone without them having to but it through an app or website.

 

[sheff1]

They aren't allowed to do it, that is why they are in "deadlock with their management" over it. There really is no room for interpretation in the TSA if they work at an Impartial Point of Sale.

6-30 THE IMPARTIALITY OBLIGATION
(1) The general rule
(a) An Operator which Sells Fares, or provides information about them, on a train or at an Impartial Point of Sale or an Impartial Information Centre must act fairly and impartially between Operators. Any such information that is provided must be factual, accurate and impartial.

That specifically says "between Operators". If the journey can only be made using a single Operator surely the rule is irrelevant and hence offering splits is fine.

 

[AlterEgo]

That specifically says "between Operators". If the journey can only be made using a single Operator surely the rule is irrelevant and hence offering splits is fine.

No, because the TSA binds TOCs and explains how their behaviour is regulated when retailing fares. This isn't about individual transactions, or the end customer. Post 63 and 79 explain how this principle translates into practice.

(This still ignores the fact that if a journey can *only* be made using a single operator - that is, there is one operator on the route and the customer can take no other TOC at all, like Lowestoft to Ipswich - there are almost never any simple splitting opportunities. Where there are complex splits or start long/shorts, you will almost certainly be affecting the revenue of other TOCs thanks to ORCATS)

 

[Deafdoggie]

OK, so the next departure time will automatically change to the arrival time of the previous ticket? If so, that makes it a lot easier but still doesn't guarantee you will be selecting the next available onward service to remain on the same train, so care does still need to be taken to ensure everything matches up.

When a change of train occurs, you also need to ensure you allow appropriate minimum connection times (do you have to look this up manually?)

You've just demonstrated how a request for (say) Scarborough to St Ives could be interpreted in a multitude of different ways, and the possibilities for changes, splits etc are huge. Do you have an easy way to look up all the possible itineraries and, for each itinerary, the possible splits automatically, or is it a manual process?

Of course, in reality, you'd rarely get such a request, because the vast majority of people making such journeys would surely prefer to book online.

But this thread is about whether it is better to buy from a ticket office; seeking advice is something else entirely.

You generate an itinerary the customer is happy with and sell tickets appropriate to that. If they want flexibility then you don't include advances. The itinerary has done all the connection times for you & if on non-advance ticket doesn't matter too much, barring any off-peak restrictions. But the system will tell you if tickets are or aren't valid for any train you select. You're making it much harder than it actually is.
If you work in Scarborough ticket office you'll probably know the usual splits from there, it would be rare and very niche for someone to rock up anywhere else and ask for that. But we'd just plan a suitable itinerary and ask how flexible they were with tickets and times and determine the most important factors.
Yes, some people do prefer to buy online. But some people like human interaction. Some people only use self-service checkouts at the supermarket and some people never use them. Some people never carry cash, some people only pay cash. It's all about giving people choices and they can decide what they want to do.

 

[sheff1]

No, because the TSA binds TOCs and explains how their behaviour is regulated when retailing fares. This isn't about individual transactions, or the end customer. Post 63 and 79 explain how this principle translates into practice.

(This still ignores the fact that if a journey can *only* be made using a single operator - that is, there is one operator on the route and the customer can take no other TOC at all, like Lowestoft to Ipswich - there are almost never any simple splitting opportunities. Where there are complex splits or start long/shorts, you will almost certainly be affecting the revenue of other TOCs thanks to ORCATS)

I haven't got the time to read the whole of the TSA as per post 63, but the 6-30 quoted is headed up as THE IMPARTIALITY OBLIGATION so I assumed that the text therein was the full extent of the obligation. From what you say it isn't.

Simple and very commonly used splits are available at Didcot Parkway between various station pairs where the journey is only possible on GWR.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Couldn’t they just email it to the customer? So they get a ticket they can show on their phone without them having to but it through an app or website.

Some TOCs do offer that, but to be honest I think there is going to be a very limited overlap indeed between "people who are willing to use an e-ticket on their phone" and "people who are unable or unwilling to purchase said e-ticket on their phone".

 

[sheff1]

Getting out of the door is busy enough on a morning. Why would I want to leave 10 minutes or more earlier when I can just but a ticket online, arrive at the station and jump on a train?

Not easy to do that when the ticket (i) can't be bought online or (ii) cannot be fulfilled by e-ticket. Many of my journeys involve one or both cases.

 

[6Gman]

You’ve said that staff are ‘not allowed’ to recommend cheaper tickets on a couple of threads, do you have actual proof of this or is all conjecture?

I've been advised of cheaper options by booking office staff on several occasions. The only mis-step I've encountered was asking for a photo id on a retired, safeguarded PT card.

I also get the impression from this Forum's disputes and prosecutions section that mishaps linked to online tickets are significantly more frequent than those linked to booking office transactions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2025 ==

Not easy to do that when the ticket (i) can't be bought online or (ii) cannot be fulfilled by e-ticket. Many of my journeys involve one or both cases.

We also frequently only decide where we are going as we arrive at the station having checked the departure board.

This may be very unusual, but it suits us.

 

[MrJeeves]

I also get the impression from this Forum's disputes and prosecutions section that mishaps linked to online tickets are significantly more frequent than those linked to booking office transactions.

Well, when most sales are online or at TVMs it's inevitable that they will result in more problems.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Simple and very commonly used splits are available at Didcot Parkway between various station pairs where the journey is only possible on GWR.

Another example is where time arbitrages are possible between Anytime, Off Peak and Super Off Peak

 

[Hadders]

I also get the impression from this Forum's disputes and prosecutions section that mishaps linked to online tickets are significantly more frequent than those linked to booking office transactions.

Given that most journeys are made with tickets purchased online that's hardly surprising.

 

[AlterEgo]

I haven't got the time to read the whole of the TSA as per post 63, but the 6-30 quoted is headed up as THE IMPARTIALITY OBLIGATION so I assumed that the text therein was the full extent of the obligation. From what you say it isn't.

It is, but you do need to read the TSA and understand it to know its context, especially how it underlines the obligation of impartial points of sale to sell the correct Fare (capitalised, single) when dealing with a customer request and ascertaining the correct Fare for their journey. If a customer requests named, specific multiple tickets (that is, they come in and say I want an off peak return A to B and an anytime return B to C), they must be sold without quibble.

Simple and very commonly used splits are available at Didcot Parkway between various station pairs where the journey is only possible on GWR.

You can use a few other TOCs to make journeys in and around that area affected by Didcot splits on myriad permitted routes. A simple example: London to South Wales is valid via Gloucester (XC) and of course anything coming out of Paddington is valid on the Elizabeth Line. You can take routes from Waterloo to Reading on a London to South Wales ticket. Some routes from on map WC involve Southeastern, SWR and GTR.

All of this affects the ORCATS take for those companies one way or another, one of the major reasons impartial retailing was written into the TSA.

 

[sheff1]

You can use a few other TOCs to make journeys in and around that area affected by Didcot splits on myriad permitted routes. A simple example: London to South Wales is valid via Gloucester (XC) and of course anything coming out of Paddington is valid on the Elizabeth Line. You can take routes from Waterloo to Reading on a London to South Wales ticket. Some routes from on map WC involve Southeastern, SWR and GTR.

Well of course there are many such journeys. The sort of journeys I was referring would not involve travel between London and Reading nor into South Wales. All moot anyway it seems.