Train companies don’t always make reasonable adjustments for disabled passengers (imo)

[CWTW]

Boring because it happens all the time but I got fined again.

I got a new style open return train ticket that’s white paper and I guess I threw out the outer journey. For context, I have a neurological/cognitive disorder that makes general living difficult. I clearly had a ticket and can prove that I bought it and when but I still got a £78 fine which I paid. It’s not the end of the world but it’s really hard to keep hold of a flimsy piece of paper for an entire month.

I like to buy my tickets from the machine when it works or a person because I make a lot of mistakes when buying tickets (I select the wrong day, time, destination etc). Not to mention, with my Railcard there are additional rules for use I struggle to remember. The ticket machines are often broken, the ticket offices are reduced hours and often closed and now without notice they’ve changed standard card tickets to white paper that look like receipts.

The prices have gone up but the services are worse and every time I make a mistake (which granted is probably one or twice a quarter), I’m treated like a criminal. It’s not even the price of the fines, it’s the fact I get nobody seems to consider people with disabilities when making decisions.

 

[Pushpit]

The prices have gone up but the services are worse and every time I make a mistake (which granted is probably one or twice a quarter), I’m treated like a criminal. It’s not even the price of the fines, it’s the fact I get nobody seems to consider people with disabilities when making decisions.

For you, and this is an open question, what would be the ideal way to handle this sort of ticket, with a month long validity?

My initial thought was that using an e-ticket on a mobile phone would have made it less likely you would have lost the return sector.

 

[yorkie]

Boring because it happens all the time but I got fined again.

I got a new style open return train ticket that’s white paper and I guess I threw out the outer journey. For context, I have a neurological/cognitive disorder that makes general living difficult. I clearly had a ticket and can prove that I bought it and when but I still got a £78 fine which I paid. It’s not the end of the world but it’s really hard to keep hold of a flimsy piece of paper for an entire month.

I like to buy my tickets from the machine when it works or a person because I make a lot of mistakes when buying tickets (I select the wrong day, time, destination etc). Not to mention, with my Railcard there are additional rules for use I struggle to remember. The ticket machines are often broken, the ticket offices are reduced hours and often closed and now without notice they’ve changed standard card tickets to white paper that look like receipts.

The prices have gone up but the services are worse and every time I make a mistake (which granted is probably one or twice a quarter), I’m treated like a criminal. It’s not even the price of the fines, it’s the fact I get nobody seems to consider people with disabilities when making decisions.

What happened exactly?

Was the £78 charge for a new ticket, a Penalty Fare, a settlement, or a court fine?

 

[CWTW]

For you, and this is an open question, what would be the ideal way to handle this sort of ticket, with a month long validity?

My initial thought was that using an e-ticket on a mobile phone would have made it less likely you would have lost the return sector.

I tend to buy them in person with a person because when I do it online, I often make mistakes. I have tried to buy online tickets with a member of train staff but they don’t like to do that, the usually sell me a physical ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 01:37 ==

What happened exactly?

Was the £78 charge for a new ticket, a Penalty Fare, a settlement, or a court fine?

£78 for a new ticket and penalty fare. It’s fine, I always get the money back on appeal because they make no reasonable adjustments but I’d just rather they made the reasonable adjustments or had more grace for disabled passengers.

 

[Pushpit]

I tend to buy them in person with a person because when I do it online, I often make mistakes. I have tried to buy online tickets with a member of train staff but they don’t like to do that, the usually sell me a physical ticket.

Thank you. I don't really have an answer but logically there were 2 parts to this - ticket purchase, which went fine for you; and ticket retention, which did not work well for you - and you mentioned the white tickets being difficult to spot. An e-ticket may have prevented the retention problem, but the purchase process is problematic. So I'm wondering if the train company could have the option to sell you a ticket over the counter in the usual way, but can have the option to send you the ticket to your phone?

 

[Kilopylae]

My family and I have asked two different ticket offices run by two different TOCs if they'd consider selling an e-Ticket to my grandad in this way, helping him to purchase it or sending it to him in an e-mail. Both flatly refused without explanation - "We don't offer that here, sorry".

 

[AlterEgo]

So I'm wondering if the train company could have the option to sell you a ticket over the counter in the usual way, but can have the option to send you the ticket to your phone?

They can’t do this at the moment, although it’s not clear exactly what limitations there are which are stopping that.

The solution is for the OP to get staff to assist in purchasing on their mobile phone but I can understand staff reluctance to do this; they aren’t trained to sell tickets on websites and it’s unclear what help the OP needs other than being reminded what the correct date and time would be. Perhaps they could confirm?

 

[Deafdoggie]

My family and I have asked two different ticket offices run by two different TOCs if they'd consider selling an e-Ticket to my grandad in this way, helping him to purchase it or sending it to him in an e-mail. Both flatly refused without explanation - "We don't offer that here, sorry".

Of little help here and now. But we had an internal brief saying this option will come in a future update, so things are looking up for the future.

 

[Pushpit]

They can’t do this at the moment, although it’s not clear exactly what limitations there are which are stopping that.

Thinking aloud here, the way it could work is that after the customer has given their travel plans and the agent has worked out the best ticket, then as part of the payment process the customer would provide a telephone number or email address or QR code from a rail retail app; then the customer would receive a SMS / email / Notification accordingly. SMS and Notifications usually being pretty quick so it can be checked immediately.

 

[CWTW]

Of little help here and now. But we had an internal brief saying this option will come in a future update, so things are looking up for the future.

That’s hopeful!

My disability has worsened over the years, so I haven’t always struggled enough to need help. Foolishly, I assumed there would be help available to disabled passengers but unless you need physical assistance getting on and off the train, there’s nothing of the sort.

It’s quite disheartening because I know penalty fare staff can use their discretion but they never do with me because A) nobody believes I’m disabled, B) there’s a lack of tolerance towards young people not being tech savvy, and C) staff aren’t aware they legally have to make reasonable adjustments, so don’t ever try to.

I’m also not going to list my disabilities in public on a busy train, but I do think they should ask/check during the issuing of a fine. I don’t think it’s fair to fine passengers without checking if there was the ability to purchase a ticket.

At my local station, the ticket office isn’t open daily, closes at 1pm and is often full of elderly people buying their tickets. The machine rarely works and doesn’t sell all ticket types, it’s now printing the white flimsy ones. We do have guards on the train who are supposed to walk through to sell passengers tickets but they often don’t. I could get to the station extra early in hopes of getting a physical ticket at the station but honestly it’s a struggle even getting there on time.

This is a bit of a rant more than anything but it’s really upsetting because yes, I could just buy a digital ticket but I have a 70% accuracy of buying the right ticket and I travel a lot so that equates to 2-5 wrong tickets per month that I get fined for. I do it so often, my Trainline account is blocked from getting refunds. Sometimes I book 2 tickets instead of 1, the wrong railcard, without my railcard, day returns instead of open returns, the journey start and finish destinations the wrong way around etc. They recommend buying them in person with staff but there aren’t staff to buy them from and then I get fined anyway.

Not sure how to get around this because realistically, they’re not going to add more station staff or prolong the opening hours of the ticket office.

 

[drueberflug]

Not to mention, with my Railcard there are additional rules for use I struggle to remember.

This won't help regarding the ticket issue, but you may want to consider a Disabled Person's Railcard, which would at least have no time restrictions.

 

[CWTW]

This won't help regarding the ticket issue, but you may want to consider a Disabled Person's Railcard, which would at least have no time restrictions.

I have to have PIP for that and despite my GP giving supporting evidence, my claim was rejected, so I can’t get one unfortunately.

 

[30907]

Thinking aloud, if you are repeatedly getting PFs from the same TOC which are overturned on appeal, and "I have a disability that means I cannot buy before boarding" doesn't have the dssired effect, then some sort of document from them that you could show as necessary might help?

 

[Railguy1]

I have to have PIP for that and despite my GP giving supporting evidence, my claim was rejected, so I can’t get one unfortunately.

It has been claimed (from stories I’ve read and heard over the years) that the assessors that do PIP assessments, in some instances, have lied and denied people very valid claims.

If you do feel you have a valid claim for PIP, I‘d suggest you speak with services such as citizens advice for guidance on filling out the form or making an appeal. I’d certainly consider making appeals and taking it to a tribunalif you haven’t done so already.

You have my sympathies for what it’s worth regarding the disabled railcard. The eligibility requirements are not necessarily suitable. They need to be updated and take into consideration that the process for PIP is challenging to get for a lot of people. Or the processes for PIP need to be revised and improved and made simpler. But unfortunately I can’t see either of these occurring.

There is a lot of advice on the ukbenefitsadvice Subreddit too:

https://www.reddit.com/r/BenefitsAdviceUK/

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 00:53 ==

The solution is for the OP to get staff to assist in purchasing on their mobile phone but I can understand staff reluctance to do this; they aren’t trained to sell tickets on websites and it’s unclear what help the OP needs other than being reminded what the correct date and time would be. Perhaps they could confirm?

If someone is asking for help to buy a ticket on the phone, should the attitude be “let’s give it a go” and not “sorry can’t help, bye”?

 

[AlterEgo]

If someone is asking for help to buy a ticket on the phone, should the attitude be “let’s give it a go” and not “sorry can’t help, bye”?

Well quite, but I can also understand staff reluctance to do this.

 

[Wallsendmag]

My family and I have asked two different ticket offices run by two different TOCs if they'd consider selling an e-Ticket to my grandad in this way, helping him to purchase it or sending it to him in an e-mail. Both flatly refused without explanation - "We don't offer that here, sorry".

Buy from LNER they have this facility.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 08:08 ==

They can’t do this at the moment, although it’s not clear exactly what limitations there are which are stopping that.

The solution is for the OP to get staff to assist in purchasing on their mobile phone but I can understand staff reluctance to do this; they aren’t trained to sell tickets on websites and it’s unclear what help the OP needs other than being reminded what the correct date and time would be. Perhaps they could confirm?

Some can as above

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 08:10 ==

Thinking aloud here, the way it could work is that after the customer has given their travel plans and the agent has worked out the best ticket, then as part of the payment process the customer would provide a telephone number or email address or QR code from a rail retail app; then the customer would receive a SMS / email / Notification accordingly. SMS and Notifications usually being pretty quick so it can be checked immediately.

Thats exactly how it works the the TIS LNER use

 

[6Gman]

Thinking aloud, if you are repeatedly getting PFs from the same TOC which are overturned on appeal, and "I have a disability that means I cannot buy before boarding" doesn't have the dssired effect, then some sort of document from them that you could show as necessary might help?

Two suggestions:

1. A letter from your GP outlining the issue that could be shown to staff on-train.
2. If you are regularly appealing successfully, a letter from TOC/TOCs explaining this and that reasonable adjustment should be made that could again be shown.

 

[Haywain]

there’s a lack of tolerance towards young people not being tech savvy,

But...

the ticket office isn’t open daily, closes at 1pm and is often full of elderly people buying their tickets

...you appear to not have tolerance for "elderly" people.

 

[ikcdab]

Why don't you just get a friend or family member to help you buy the tickets?

 

[Egg Centric]

Are you comfortable going into the nature of your disability? I understand you may not be but if you were there is a lot of weird railway/life experience here that may be able to suggest alternative strategies

 

[Starmill]

They can’t do this at the moment, although it’s not clear exactly what limitations there are which are stopping that.

There definitely isn't a tech barrier, Virgin Trains ticket offices did this, and Avanti West Coast still do. As noted above LNER also rolled it out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 22:51 ==

If someone is asking for help to buy a ticket on the phone, should the attitude be “let’s give it a go” and not “sorry can’t help, bye”?

A lot of ticket office staff wouldn't want to do this for the same reason they don't want to assist customers to use ticket machines or with ticket on departure. I'm sure you can guess what the reason is...

 

[Titfield]

A lot of ticket office staff wouldn't want to do this for the same reason they don't want to assist customers to use ticket machines or with ticket on departure. I'm sure you can guess what the reason is...

The implied reason may well be so, but many organisations advise their staff not to touch customers mobile phones for reasons of (1) possibly dropping the phone causing physical damage (2) fears that the customers privacy may be breached, inadvertent accessing of personal data (3) suggestions that the member of staff may somehow have interfered with the devices settings / functionality.

 

[RPI]

They can’t do this at the moment, although it’s not clear exactly what limitations there are which are stopping that.

The solution is for the OP to get staff to assist in purchasing on their mobile phone but I can understand staff reluctance to do this; they aren’t trained to sell tickets on websites and it’s unclear what help the OP needs other than being reminded what the correct date and time would be. Perhaps they could confirm?

With TTK we've been able to issue (most) tickets to phones since about 2020. It involves the customer scanning a QR code that is generated by the TTK device when that option is selected.

 

[Starmill]

The implied reason may well be so, but many organisations advise their staff not to touch customers mobile phones for reasons of (1) possibly dropping the phone causing physical damage (2) fears that the customers privacy may be breached, inadvertent accessing of personal data (3) suggestions that the member of staff may somehow have interfered with the devices settings / functionality.

I agree with this and it's always better not to touch the customer's device, just point and ask them to do it. That's how the vast majority of customer service staff I've come across have behaved with me, which seems totally sensible.

 

[John R]

I agree with this and it's always better not to touch the customer's device, just point and ask them to do it. That's how the vast majority of customer service staff I've come across have behaved with me, which seems totally sensible.

I’m just wondering how long it might take someone to do that for a transaction, in comparison with just selling a normal ticket. Particularly given there are numerous booking engines. I can easily see it taking a long time, during which there might be other people waiting to be served.

 

[Starmill]

I’m just wondering how long it might take someone to do that for a transaction, in comparison with just selling a normal ticket. Particularly given there are numerous booking engines. I can easily see it taking a long time, during which there might be other people waiting to be served.

I think it would take quite a long time regardless of the way in which you did it. Although most ticket offices don't exactly have lots of people queuing up to use them nowadays.

 

[CWTW]

But...

...you appear to not have tolerance for "elderly" people.

I am tolerant of elderly people but I’m providing context. A lot of elderly people are constantly at the ticket office from 30 minutes before the train leaves. I live in an area with a lot of elderly people who rely on public transport, because of this, there are a lot of elderly people seeking assistance that it’s not as easy as using the ticket office in the limited hours that it is open. Not sure why you’re being facetious but it’s not helpful.

 

[The exile]

I am tolerant of elderly people but I’m providing context. A lot of elderly people are constantly at the ticket office from 30 minutes before the train leaves. I live in an area with a lot of elderly people who rely on public transport, because of this, there are a lot of elderly people seeking assistance…

Whose need may be as great as, or greater than yours. Is there something preventing you from allowing more time for ticket purchase before the departure of your train?

 

[CWTW]

Are you comfortable going into the nature of your disability? I understand you may not be but if you were there is a lot of weird railway/life experience here that may be able to suggest alternative strategies

Function Neurological Disorder, ADHD and Autism. I know it’s a lot, I feel awkward sharing it sometimes because with too many diagnoses, people tend to think you’re being difficult and attaching labels to yourself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 14:08 ==

Thinking aloud, if you are repeatedly getting PFs from the same TOC which are overturned on appeal, and "I have a disability that means I cannot buy before boarding" doesn't have the dssired effect, then some sort of document from them that you could show as necessary might help?

Their argument is, that’s an issue for the appeals service. They don’t see it as something they have to consider unfortunately.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 14:23 ==

Why don't you just get a friend or family member to help you buy the tickets?

I used to have my mum buy them for me to collect but it’s back to the new paper ticket issue and our local machine being outdated. Ideally, I’d have them online so I don’t lose them. I could FaceTime friends and share screen when booking my tickets but there’s already so much that goes into any journey, that’s realistically just another barrier of access. When I know I’m travelling in advanced, it’s easier to plan around it - this tends to become an issue on the more spontaneous trips.

Whose need may be as great as, or greater than yours. Is there something preventing you from allowing more time for ticket purchase before the departure of your train?

I’m not disputing that. I’m stating that even when there are train staff in the ticket office, it still doesn’t always mean it’s possible to get a ticket from them because they are serving others. The ticket office hours are unreliable and close at 1pm on the days it is open. I’m disabled, it’s not always possible to get there 30 minutes early on the off chance that it’s open. If I’m travelling after 1pm or spontaneously, that’s not possible.

It’s not my job to overcome barriers to access, the whole point of this thread is me voicing that it feels unfair to expect disabled people to work around systems that are exclusive of us. The open house should be reliable, train guards should do their job, especially in an area with a high percentage of passengers who need help.

 

[Pushpit]

CWTW, I can see the problem with the Disabled Railcard eligibility, you fall through the gaps here, and yet I'm guessing it's best that you do not attempt to drive. So clearly disabled in any common sense meaning, but not able to have a Disabled Railcard. The key problem is that they set up this Railcard so that GPs and other clinicians do not get hassled to write letters to confirm eligibility, hence relying on benefits or social security documentation, with some silly outcomes as a result. I think it may be something to raise with your MP, not that will change anything soon.

Yes, unfortunately I think it's a case of doing your best to get help with ticket purchases, perhaps getting a trusted buddy to help you to use the LNER app - this allow you to take home printed e-tickets, lose it, reprint it, show it on the screen, show it on the app. But also unfortunately to accept having to appeal Penalty Fares when even that goes wrong.