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Discussion about "Train ticket enforcement must be fair and proportionate, watchdog warns"

Bletchleyite

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If I touch in at Penzance and travel to Wick but fail to touch out what is charged?
How would this be different to someone touching in at Penzance and travelling to St Erth but forgetting to touch out?

The answer to that used to be "if it happens too often block the card permanently", most people wouldn't be bothered to keep getting new cards for that.

Problem now is that the likes of Monzo let you create and destroy virtual cards at will, and you can add them to Apple Pay too. Though given that a card is associated to an individual doing that too often would likely get you found out and heading towards a conviction under the Fraud Act, and there's little that will mess up your (financial) life more than that - you won't get credit or a bank account, for certain, and probably won't get a job either - a Fraud Act conviction is basically a big yellow label saying "this person cannot be trusted".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Clear and obvious signage at stations. Either "you must buy your ticket before you board" or "buy your ticket from the conductor"

And a well known logo too.

We could adopt the "eye" from Switzerland to indicate penalty fares trains/stations. I don't think our "triangle with tickets in it" is quite as distinctive. I'm sure we could find one for Paytrain too, then you would always have one or the other on the displays for any given train. (For older systems where a logo can't be displayed, you'd just use the text PAYTRAIN or PENALTY FARES APPLY).
 
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furlong

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If I touch in at Penzance and travel to Wick but fail to touch out what is charged?
How would this be different to someone touching in at Penzance and travelling to St Erth but forgetting to touch out?
This sort of rethink may involving requiring touches on readers inside the vehicles. Touch in when boarding, touch out when alighting. Or even more radically and cheaply, have lots of unique stickers in the vehicles and at stations that people can scan with an app (with the system knowing which carriages form which service). Then from all the available data linked together (user's input of their intended journey, cards attached to their account, scans/NFC and GPS along the way etc.) the right fare can be charged.
 

Krokodil

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Any form of walk-up flexible ticket will have some sort of complexities involved somewhere.
An Anytime Day Return is perfectly straightforward. The passenger doesn‘t have to worry about a thing beyond "return same day". Train-specific tickets on the other hand cause me all sorts of grief.

If I touch in at Penzance and travel to Wick but fail to touch out what is charged?
How would this be different to someone touching in at Penzance and travelling to St Erth but forgetting to touch out?
What happens on every other contactless travel system? And yes, there would have to be some kind of cap which would be a policy decision for the politicians. That doesn't make it unworkable, just as it is not unworkable in the Netherlands, it is just a question of priorities.
 

Bletchleyite

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An Anytime Day Return is perfectly straightforward. The passenger doesn‘t have to worry about a thing beyond "return same day".

Given where you work it's probably quite simple.

Now let's consider a slightly extreme one - an Anytime Day Return from Ormskirk to Manchester Stations - which way can I go? Permitted Routes are themselves a lot of complexity. You could of course route more explicitly, but then you've got a lot of different options - there are about 5-6 permitted routes for that journey, and none of them is obviously better than the others (though I think most would by default go via Liverpool as that's the mentality on Merseyrail for anything long distance, that is if they didn't just drive to Burscough "West Lancashire Parkway" Bridge I suppose - and even from there you've got two sensible routes -Bolton and Atherton - and the choice of Castlefield and Victoria).

When I was first at uni I had a season ticket for that (well, it was from Aughton Park) - it was near enough a rover ticket, as there weren't many places in the North West south of Preston and north of Chester you couldn't legitimately be on one of the permitted routes for that ticket.

It's an extreme example, of course, but it just highlights that the only way to be simple is to print on the ticket which train it is - and as you say even some people find that hard!
 

Krokodil

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You could of course route more explicitly, but then you've got a lot of different options - there are about 5-6 permitted routes for that journey
What's the issue? If all of the vaguely sensible routes are permitted then there's no complexity - it's generally restrictions and prohibitions that make things complex for Joe Public, not easements. The less restricted a ticket is, the less complex it is.

The only time that an "Any Permitted" ticket gets complex is if there is a route that sounds reasonable but is not actually permitted. North Wales to London for example is not technically valid via Runcorn or Warrington but these may offer faster connections than going direct to Crewe. The solution to this problem is to just make these routings permitted, because they're reasonable routes. Hey presto, no complexity.
 

Bletchleyite

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The only time that an "Any Permitted" ticket gets complex is if there is a route that sounds reasonable but is not actually permitted. North Wales to London for example is not technically valid via Runcorn or Warrington but these may offer faster connections than going direct to Crewe. The solution to this problem is to just make these routings permitted, because they're reasonable routes. Hey presto, no complexity.

Are you *sure* it's not valid via Warrington? I have had itineraries that way to MKC, unless the routes for MKC are different than London, but while possible that would be surprising.
 

Krokodil

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the only way to be simple is to print on the ticket which train it is - and as you say even some people find that hard!
Ok, so you turn up at Newton-le-Willows with a ticket to Manchester Piccadilly for the xx:35 Manchester Airport train. A train turns up at 15:35 with "Manchester Airport" on the front and "Manchester Piccadilly" in the calling pattern. You get on. No, it was the 15:30 TfW service running a few minutes late, not the Northern stopper waiting behind it. If you'd bought an Anytime ticket to Manchester Stns you could have just jumped on whichever train turned up first, any bar that one Wigan train per day would have got you to central Manchester.

But pricing managers are trying to push you towards restricted tickets ("TPE only", "TfW only", APOD etc.) because their operator can avoid sharing the revenue through ORCATS. The revenue that all ends up back in the same place anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Are you *sure* it's not valid via Warrington? I have had itineraries that way to MKC, unless the routes for MKC are different than London, but while possible that would be surprising.
Last time that I tested it in a journey planner it said "no fares found" (let's ignore advances as they come with an itinerary). If it has been fixed then great, I always turned a blind eye anyway (cautioning passengers as I did that it wasn't technically permitted and I couldn't guarantee that the Avanti TM wouldn't object).

Edit: just tested Llandudno to Euston via Warrington on NRE and got:
This journey is not a permitted route and may require multiple tickets. Please re-plan your journey

For a journey time only five minutes longer on a weekday timetable, and which may be the fastest route out of hours or on Sundays.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Further edit, MKC does indeed have looser routing rules. As I said the solution is to remove restrictions in most cases.
 
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Hadders

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What happens on every other contactless travel system? And yes, there would have to be some kind of cap which would be a policy decision for the politicians. That doesn't make it unworkable, just as it is not unworkable in the Netherlands, it is just a question of priorities.
You get charged a maximum fare, but this is not too punative in relatively small systems. So Penzance to Wick ould mean a maximum fare of around £170 assuming single leg pricing was in place. But you'd need to charge the same maximum fare everywhere (because the system wouldn't know what journey you'd made) so if your journey was really only Penzance to St Erth then a maximum fare of £170 would be hugely disproportionate.
 

jfollows

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Are you *sure* it's not valid via Warrington? I have had itineraries that way to MKC, unless the routes for MKC are different than London, but while possible that would be surprising.
They are (maps showing valid routes at https://rgpp.iblocks.co.uk/maps).
JO+LC allows Llandudno-Warrington-Milton Keynes
EJ does not allow Llandudno-Warrington-London

EDIT Note that JO+LC is not a defined/valid map combination for Llandudno-London
 
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Krokodil

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You get charged a maximum fare, but this is not too punative in relatively small systems. So Penzance to Wick ould mean a maximum fare of around £170 assuming single leg pricing was in place. But you'd need to charge the same maximum fare everywhere (because the system wouldn't know what journey you'd made) so if your journey was really only Penzance to St Erth then a maximum fare of £170 would be hugely disproportionate.
So you tap in at a station and don't tap out: Incomplete journey charge of £20.

You tap in, board a train, are inspected onboard and fail to tap out at your destination: you get charged to the final calling point of that train. The longer the journey, the more likely that you will be inspected onboard at some point. The chances of someone getting from Penzance to Wick without an onboard check are slim to none.

If we were to set a fare cap of £100 (to match the contactless limit) then that doesn‘t sound unreasonable considering that failing to tap in could land you a £100+ penalty fare anyway.

How does the Netherlands handle it? They're a smaller country but their contactless payment system is far larger geographically than anything we've done to date.
 

Bletchleyite

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They are.
JO+LC allows Llandudno-Warrington-Milton Keynes
EJ does not allow Llandudno-Warrington-London

Thanks.

That in itself is a classic example of confusion. There is no rational reason why Permitted Routes to anywhere on the south WCML should be different from another station slightly further down.
 

jfollows

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Thanks.

That in itself is a classic example of confusion. There is no rational reason why Permitted Routes to anywhere on the south WCML should be different from another station slightly further down.
Of course.
The whole system of fares and routes is cumbersome and too complex for the ordinary passenger to be able to understand.
 

AlterEgo

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If we were to set a fare cap of £100 (to match the contactless limit) then that doesn‘t sound unreasonable considering that failing to tap in could land you a £100+ penalty fare anyway.

How does the Netherlands handle it? They're a smaller country but their contactless payment system is far larger geographically than anything we've done to date.
To be fair they have much lower fares so the "penalty" for an incomplete journey would be lower. A fare cap of £100 here is just not going to happen.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Yes and no. Take Manchester Stns to Manchester Airport for example. A ticket should be a ticket on a high-frequency, urban flow. In reality there are all manner of TPE only, TfW Only, Advances, Off Peaks etc. Is it any wonder that people who don't often take the train, who may well have a poor command of English get caught out?

Incidentally there was an industry plan to simplify fares on that route in May to do just that - just have one ticket and do away with all the myriad complexities which catch everyone out.

That simplification apparently got stopped because "stakeholders" objected and would not approve it.

Yet it is those same "stakeholders" who call for simplification and the end of confusing fares which catch people out.
 

Benjwri

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Incidentally there was an industry plan to simplify fares on that route in May to do just that - just have one ticket and do away with all the myriad complexities which catch everyone out.

That simplification apparently got stopped because "stakeholders" objected and would not approve it.

Yet it is those same "stakeholders" who call for simplification and the end of confusing fares which catch people out.
By any chance did that ‘simplification’ involve making everything cost the highest ticket price? If so no wonder they objected.
 

Lewisham2221

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Ok, so you turn up at Newton-le-Willows with a ticket to Manchester Piccadilly for the xx:35 Manchester Airport train. A train turns up at 15:35 with "Manchester Airport" on the front and "Manchester Piccadilly" in the calling pattern. You get on. No, it was the 15:30 TfW service running a few minutes late, not the Northern stopper waiting behind it. If you'd bought an Anytime ticket to Manchester Stns you could have just jumped on whichever train turned up first, any bar that one Wigan train per day would have got you to central Manchester.

I like the way the French do it, with train numbers. It makes it simpler all round, even with walk up tickets.

I'm standing at Crewe. I'm not from the UK, so neither my geographical knowledge of British settlements, nor my English language skills are great.

For example:
I have an Anytime return to Preston. I know the train is at 1410. I look at the departure board. ****! Do I need the 1410 to Pembroke Dock from platform 12? The 1410 to Glasgow from platform 6? The 1410 to Newark Castle from platform 3?

Much easier if there's a specific number to look out for.
 

FenMan

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Thanks.

That in itself is a classic example of confusion. There is no rational reason why Permitted Routes to anywhere on the south WCML should be different from another station slightly further down.


There are three main permitted routes to London Terminals from my local station, each with a single change en route.

When heading via London towards West Norfolk, I'm permitted to take any of the three routes to London if my destination is Ely.
However if my destination is any station north of Ely e.g. Downham Market, then only the two (slower) routes to London are permitted.

Worse, if I were to buy a ticket to Downham Market from the next station along the line from my local station, magically all three routes to London become valid again.

Frankly, I ignore this silliness and travel by the most convenient route, permitted or otherwise, and have not encountered any issues over the 20+ years I've been doing this.
 

Russel

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Is the following inclusion in the report really correct?

If so, this is contrary to the the opinions and advice frequently posted on this forum, which has been that it is only a requirement for the railcard to be valid while travelling.

If true, I never knew that.

I've brought tickets with an F&F railcard discount applied despite the railcard being expired as I'm not willing to renew the railcard a month before travel as I then loose a months validity...
 

AlterEgo

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I like the way the French do it, with train numbers. It makes it simpler all round, even with walk up tickets.

I'm standing at Crewe. I'm not from the UK, so neither my geographical knowledge of British settlements, nor my English language skills are great.

For example:
I have an Anytime return to Preston. I know the train is at 1410. I look at the departure board. ****! Do I need the 1410 to Pembroke Dock from platform 12? The 1410 to Glasgow from platform 6? The 1410 to Newark Castle from platform 3?

Much easier if there's a specific number to look out for.
Virgin Trains tried it in the early days, but the British public was not bright enough to understand that foreign muck.
 

PeterC

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So you tap in at a station and don't tap out: Incomplete journey charge of £20.

You tap in, board a train, are inspected onboard and fail to tap out at your destination: you get charged to the final calling point of that train. The longer the journey, the more likely that you will be inspected onboard at some point. The chances of someone getting from Penzance to Wick without an onboard check are slim to none.

If we were to set a fare cap of £100 (to match the contactless limit) then that doesn‘t sound unreasonable considering that failing to tap in could land you a £100+ penalty fare anyway.

How does the Netherlands handle it? They're a smaller country but their contactless payment system is far larger geographically than anything we've done to date.
Far too easy.

Max fares can be set for each station depending on the main flow from that station. Procedures for on train inspections may been to a tweaked to ensure that these are done at the most appropriate points in a journey. It may be necessary to put conductors on some services that are otherwise driver only.
 

Bletchleyite

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I like the way the French do it, with train numbers. It makes it simpler all round, even with walk up tickets.

I'm standing at Crewe. I'm not from the UK, so neither my geographical knowledge of British settlements, nor my English language skills are great.

For example:
I have an Anytime return to Preston. I know the train is at 1410. I look at the departure board. ****! Do I need the 1410 to Pembroke Dock from platform 12? The 1410 to Glasgow from platform 6? The 1410 to Newark Castle from platform 3?

Much easier if there's a specific number to look out for.

Even worse, there are two services to Edinburgh either side of the same island platform at the same time.

I believe it's no longer the case, but at one point that did occur at Birmingham New St.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Incidentally there was an industry plan to simplify fares on that route in May to do just that - just have one ticket and do away with all the myriad complexities which catch everyone out.

That simplification apparently got stopped because "stakeholders" objected and would not approve it.

Yet it is those same "stakeholders" who call for simplification and the end of confusing fares which catch people out.

The problem is that people want simplification but don't want to give up the idea of being able to get an Advance for 25p, or something.

It's one or the other. Simple or cheap. Both aren't possible without a massive increase in subsidy.

See also LNER.
 

Hadders

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Far too easy.

Max fares can be set for each station depending on the main flow from that station. Procedures for on train inspections may been to a tweaked to ensure that these are done at the most appropriate points in a journey. It may be necessary to put conductors on some services that are otherwise driver only.
What would the maximum fare be from Birmingham New Street?

What would someone who taps in at New Street and travels to Canley on a packed train but forgets to tap out be charged. The journey takes place on a packed train in the evening peak with absolutely no chance of an onboard check.
 

Lewisham2221

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If there is insufficient evidence for prosecution, there is insufficient evidence a crime has been committed! Why therefore should anyone settle ?
Because they know they have done wrong, but they don't fully realise that there may be insufficient evidence to secure a conviction against them in court and don't want to take that risk.

We're very good at creating all sorts of ifs, buts, hypothetical maybes and all other sorts of technical defences. But how many totally innocent people are going to pay such sums if they know they are innocent?
 

156444

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Because they know they have done wrong, but they don't fully realise that there may be insufficient evidence to secure a conviction against them in court and don't want to take that risk.

We're very good at creating all sorts of ifs, buts, hypothetical maybes and all other sorts of technical defences. But how many totally innocent people are going to pay such sums if they know they are innocent?
Quite a few, I would imagine. They may be of an anxious disposition and just want a stressful situation closed. They might second guess themselves and think they must have made an error somewhere, otherwise they wouldn't be getting these emails/letters. They may just decide they can't be bothered with the hassle of fighting it and pay up to get rid.
 

AlterEgo

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Quite a few, I would imagine. They may be of an anxious disposition and just want a stressful situation closed. They might second guess themselves and think they must have made an error somewhere, otherwise they wouldn't be getting these emails/letters. They may just decide they can't be bothered with the hassle of fighting it and pay up to get rid.
There are quite a few people like this who come to this part of the forum.
 

Lewisham2221

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Quite a few, I would imagine. They may be of an anxious disposition and just want a stressful situation closed. They might second guess themselves and think they must have made an error somewhere, otherwise they wouldn't be getting these emails/letters. They may just decide they can't be bothered with the hassle of fighting it and pay up to get rid.
That's a personal responsibility issue then. I wouldn't just simply pay up for a parking fine, speeding ticket, or any other debt/payment request if I knew I wasn't at fault.

If a TOC writes to someone accusing them of multiple instances of short faring, how many people are going to "second guess themselves" about whether they regularly buy tickets between two nearby stations for legitimate reasons, or if they are doing it for fare evasion purposes?

You either regularly buy a ticket between Aston and Birmingham because you, say, live in Aston, or you're doing it because you actually live in and travel from Sutton Coldfield but don't fancy paying the full fare. I'm struggling to see how you could possibly be unsure if you were on the wrong or not.
 

AlterEgo

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That's a personal responsibility issue then. I wouldn't just simply pay up for a parking fine, speeding ticket, or any other debt/payment request if I knew I wasn't at fault.

If a TOC writes to someone accusing them of multiple instances of short faring, how many people are going to "second guess themselves" about whether they regularly buy tickets between two nearby stations for legitimate reasons, or if they are doing it for fare evasion purposes?

You either regularly buy a ticket between Aston and Birmingham because you, say, live in Aston, or you're doing it because you actually live in and travel from Sutton Coldfield but don't fancy paying the full fare. I'm struggling to see how you could possibly be unsure if you were on the wrong or not.
But that’s not the only type of irregularity. That’s clearly fraudulent, and doesn’t encompass more benign matters which attract criminal proceedings.
 

KirkstallOne

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That's a personal responsibility issue then. I wouldn't just simply pay up for a parking fine, speeding ticket, or any other debt/payment request if I knew I wasn't at fault.

If a TOC writes to someone accusing them of multiple instances of short faring, how many people are going to "second guess themselves" about whether they regularly buy tickets between two nearby stations for legitimate reasons, or if they are doing it for fare evasion purposes?

You either regularly buy a ticket between Aston and Birmingham because you, say, live in Aston, or you're doing it because you actually live in and travel from Sutton Coldfield but don't fancy paying the full fare. I'm struggling to see how you could possibly be unsure if you were on the wrong or not.
59,000 were convicted for offences they couldn’t possibly have committed from the prosecutions own evidence.

Respectfully, I seriously doubt your confidence in refusing to settle in similar circumstances would survive collision with reality. Either way, it is clear that for vast numbers of people this is not true.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There are quite a few people like this who come to this part of the forum.
Or the postmasters and mistresses who pleaded guilty to false accounting charges.
 
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Sonic1234

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The trouble I think is that the industry is financially incentivised to make things awkward then enforce. Those settlements must add a fair bit to the bottom line just because of the typical forgetful student.
Exactly this. The whole system is about extracting settlements. It's often said on here that being contrite is necessary if caught, because the TOC has the right to go straight to court. In theory, true. In practice, no one wants to go to court.

Everyone, except if caught by TfL, who engages seems to get offered a settlement, no matter the scale of the offence. Most don't even make people go through the theatre of writing an apology, they say "Pay £x or court" from the off. For those who that do make people beg for a settlement, I wonder what would happen if they showed no remorse but offered cash - I bet it would be accepted.

The railway seems to have no concerns about customer loyalty either, there is an increasing belief among TOCs that you're on the train because there is no other reasonable option for the journey you are making, so it doesn't matter how you are treated. If you do abandon the railway, someone else will take your seat. This applies to routine customer service matters too.
 

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