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Tyne and Wear Metro - Washington loop extension

deanmachine

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13 Jul 2019
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48
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South Tyneside
I don't even think the next step should be heavy rail. It should be a metro connection to Durham on the Leamside, but that would require a new crossing over the Wear and a new platform in Durham, would be costly, but that's what should happen imo.
 
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Economic505

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5 Jun 2025
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Hartlepool
I'm a little bit worried that this project has been rushed out without any plan. Only a few weeks ago the mayor was announcing a few million for a business case/assessment. Now we're hearing it's going ahead. Surely the background work has not been done and I really feel like we're going to see some really nasty surprises going ahead.
This hasn’t been rushed. In fact this idea is decades old . It’s a good start to bring Washington onto the network and also to bring some of the Leamside line back into use. Some people have questioned why it’s a loop. Such a concept is hardly new. We have a loop on the yellow line and also the Circle line in London. Passengers aren’t stupid, they’ll figure it out.
 

D869

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6 Feb 2014
Messages
59
I don't even think the next step should be heavy rail. It should be a metro connection to Durham on the Leamside, but that would require a new crossing over the Wear and a new platform in Durham, would be costly, but that's what should happen imo.
I agree a reopened Leamside line should be light rail only. Re crossing the River Wear, Belmont Viaduct is still there, waiting to be re-used. A new rail bridge over or under the A1(M) would be needed, just north of junction 62, preferably at right angles.
 
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MetroTyler

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17 Oct 2024
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55
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
I'm a little bit worried that this project has been rushed out without any plan. Only a few weeks ago the mayor was announcing a few million for a business case/assessment. Now we're hearing it's going ahead. Surely the background work has not been done and I really feel like we're going to see some really nasty surprises going ahead.
Isn't this what Arup are appointed to figure out?
 

SeanG

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4 May 2013
Messages
1,308
I think the concept of 'light rail' and 'heavy rail' should be forgotten. Metro has run on Network Rail now for over 20 years, and if you look to Switzerland, Germany etc., the two types of system are very blurred. Furthermore the new Metro rolling stock that is currently being delivered is similar to the Merseyrail 'heavy rail'.
 

Snex

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Joined
20 Jun 2018
Messages
382
I think the concept of 'light rail' and 'heavy rail' should be forgotten. Metro has run on Network Rail now for over 20 years, and if you look to Switzerland, Germany etc., the two types of system are very blurred. Furthermore the new Metro rolling stock that is currently being delivered is similar to the Merseyrail 'heavy rail'.

The 1500v overhead wires would say otherwise though which is a massive stumbling block if they want to electrify any lines in the North East which if the Leamside ever got built, wouldn't be the worst line since it's an ECML diversion.
 

danielnez1

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14 May 2012
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265
Location
Seghill
The 1500v overhead wires would say otherwise though which is a massive stumbling block if they want to electrify any lines in the North East which if the Leamside ever got built, wouldn't be the worst line since it's an ECML diversion.
It is a shame the idea of dula voltage capability of the 555s was dropped, as in this situation, it could have allowed for the Leamside (and the Sunderland line) to be converted to 25kV in the future.
 

Andymo

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24 Dec 2018
Messages
19
They will not be electrified within the lifespan of the 555s and there are plenty of bimodes for diversionary operation.
 

DanNCL

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County Durham
The 1500v overhead wires would say otherwise though which is a massive stumbling block if they want to electrify any lines in the North East which if the Leamside ever got built, wouldn't be the worst line since it's an ECML diversion.
1500v DC is used on almost the entire Dutch mainline network. It isn’t something that prevents Metro from being heavy rail.

They will not be electrified within the lifespan of the 555s and there are plenty of bimodes for diversionary operation.
It’s far too early to tell what may or may not be electrified in 2060, which is roughly when the 555s are expected to last until.
 

alavery04

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26 Aug 2024
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Arryck2004!
I was having a think the other day and thought, (mind me I’m no engineer so I could be totally talking out my backside) would it not be possible to convert them to third rail DC? Or even dual voltage to keep them under wires through the core and in nexus territory and use third rail on the pelaw to Sunderland/leamside section? Would make it easier to electrify heavy rail in the future.
 

DanNCL

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County Durham
I was having a think the other day and thought, (mind me I’m no engineer so I could be totally talking out my backside) would it not be possible to convert them to third rail DC? Or even dual voltage to keep them under wires through the core and in nexus territory and use third rail on the pelaw to Sunderland/leamside section? Would make it easier to electrify heavy rail in the future.
From a technical perspective it's theoretically possible but it wouldn't be easy as it's not something the 555s were designed to accommodate. From a legislative perspective almost certainly not as the ORR aren't keen on new third rail installations.
 

alavery04

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26 Aug 2024
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Arryck2004!
While I don't want to appear negative as the project would connect more of the region, it isn't perfect. I did think the reopening of the Leamside offered more economic potential if done right. At the moment there appears to be no station between South Hylton and Washington by turning straight onto the Victoria viaduct missing a whole load of communities in the Coalfields region - imagine buses connecting from Houghton , Hetton, Penshaw and further afield to open faster travel. I know if the Leamside line is the next step they will be potentially served but a stub to Penshaw, Biddick Woods, Shiney Row could create a feeder interchange and avoid an expensive connection to the Victoria Viaduct. Kevin

My thoughts exactly, missing out 3 major possible stops with vital bus routes connecting the several communities of washington that won’t necessarily benefit from the metro connection aswell as buses to and from chester le street, peterlee, the south of Sunderland around doxford park etc. I personally would have had it stop at wardley aswell, instead of a stop called Washington north it could be a generic washington built to heavy rail standards for future heavy rail through the area. There would be a change to get to Sunderland but i think it would be worth it to open up those extra connections. I mean the point of a light rail is to connect the small towns and villages along the way as it wouldn’t be viable for a heavy rail to stop every minute or so between penshaw and fence houses. I don’t know, I just think it’s a missed opportunity.

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From a technical perspective it's theoretically possible but it wouldn't be easy as it's not something the 555s were designed to accommodate. From a legislative perspective almost certainly not as the ORR aren't keen on new third rail installations.
Yeah, I’ve heard about that. Surely for a metro/light rail it wouldn’t be too big of an issue? Also with regards to the 555s thinking about it the 319s were never made to accommodate an engine yet they worked-ish but saying that look where they are now . It would definitely be helpful and I think considering the country’s considering electrifying the full network by 2050 it will be an obstacle that will be overcome eventually.
 
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Economic505

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My thoughts exactly, missing out 3 major possible stops with vital bus routes connecting the several communities of washington that won’t necessarily benefit from the metro connection aswell as buses to and from chester le street, peterlee, the south of Sunderland around doxford park etc. I personally would have had it stop at wardley aswell, instead of a stop called Washington north it could be a generic washington built to heavy rail standards for future heavy rail through the area. There would be a change to get to Sunderland but i think it would be worth it to open up those extra connections. I mean the point of a light rail is to connect the small towns and villages along the way as it wouldn’t be viable for a heavy rail to stop every minute or so between penshaw and fence houses. I don’t know, I just think it’s a missed opportunity.

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Yeah, I’ve heard about that. Surely for a metro/light rail it wouldn’t be too big of an issue? Also with regards to the 555s thinking about it the 319s were never made to accommodate an engine yet they worked-ish but saying that look where they are now . It would definitely be helpful and I think considering the country’s considering electrifying the full network by 2050 it will be an obstacle that will be overcome eventually.
A direct connection between Washington and Sunderland is a key condition.
 

Snex

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20 Jun 2018
Messages
382
My thoughts exactly, missing out 3 major possible stops with vital bus routes connecting the several communities of washington that won’t necessarily benefit from the metro connection aswell as buses to and from chester le street, peterlee, the south of Sunderland around doxford park etc. I personally would have had it stop at wardley aswell, instead of a stop called Washington north it could be a generic washington built to heavy rail standards for future heavy rail through the area. There would be a change to get to Sunderland but i think it would be worth it to open up those extra connections. I mean the point of a light rail is to connect the small towns and villages along the way as it wouldn’t be viable for a heavy rail to stop every minute or so between penshaw and fence houses. I don’t know, I just think it’s a missed opportunity.

It's the North East. Sunderland would never sign something like that off as it would be Newcastle centric and that's just a big no-no.

Rightfully or wrongfully there's serious parochial issues in the North East.
 

alavery04

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Arryck2004!
A direct connection between Washington and Sunderland is a key condition.
Multiple bus routes, connecting sunderland to washington, hopefully with a 10 minute frequency all round it really wouldn’t kill to change and wait the 10 minutes. It’s all about connecting people but yet missing out 3 sizeable communities. Feels like a bit of a missed opportunity. I know the yellow line loops but it starts in one place and ends in another without backing up on itself where the green line will, whether it just runs to heworth or further on so it’s not really comparable.
 

consettman

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Joined
10 May 2023
Messages
16
Location
Newcastle upon tyne
Reopen the 2nd island at Sunderland for Metro trains arriving via Washington / S Hylton, and abandon Metro running on the north end of the proposed loop? Allowing conversion to 25kv and full electrification of the Durham coast line without the 1.5kv problem.
 

swt_passenger

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7 Apr 2010
Messages
33,090
Yeah, I’ve heard about that. Surely for a metro/light rail it wouldn’t be too big of an issue?
It’s not the fact that it’s light rail, metro or heavy rail. If top contact third rail is easily accessible to the public or staff it would be considered a shock danger whatever the purpose of the system, as the risks are exactly the same.
 
Joined
24 Mar 2019
Messages
269
Location
The Canny Toon
This hasn’t been rushed. In fact this idea is decades old . It’s a good start to bring Washington onto the network and also to bring some of the Leamside line back into use. Some people have questioned why it’s a loop. Such a concept is hardly new. We have a loop on the yellow line and also the Circle line in London. Passengers aren’t stupid, they’ll figure it out.
That the idea has been knocking around for years doesn't mean that it has been fully thought through and costed. With projects like this - certainly in NE England and probably elsewhere - to here is a good deal of over excitement and donning of rose-tinted spectacles. There does seem to be inordinate haste between Kim McGuinness refloating the idea and the government promising cash. Perhaps I should remind people of the latest iteration of the A1 dualling plan. Money was promised - hurrah! - then, lo and behold, money was withdrawn + boo!
 

hacman

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Joined
22 Jul 2011
Messages
470
The 1500v overhead wires would say otherwise though which is a massive stumbling block if they want to electrify any lines in the North East which if the Leamside ever got built, wouldn't be the worst line since it's an ECML diversion.

From a business case perspective, the Leamside is never getting electrified purely as a diversionary route, especially with the amount of bi-mode units kicking around on LNER services. To make it viable from any other perspective, you'd also need there to be a sudden increase in electrification elsewhere in the region, at a minimum including the Tyne Valley and Durham Coast.

This simply isn't going to happen any time soon, and by that point either the 555s will be getting towards their replacement, in which case early replacement for a smaller part of the fleet would be possible, or the project will be substantial enough that adding 25kV capability to the 555s or procuring a number of new sets with dual voltage would be the way forward.

From a technical perspective it's theoretically possible but it wouldn't be easy as it's not something the 555s were designed to accommodate. From a legislative perspective almost certainly not as the ORR aren't keen on new third rail installations.
It is a shame the idea of dula voltage capability of the 555s was dropped, as in this situation, it could have allowed for the Leamside (and the Sunderland line) to be converted to 25kV in the future.

Stadler could still add this feature if it was needed, either into existing sets with the addition of an extra car, or to new sets built with the capability from the outset. They also have battery capability, which was factored in with exactly this sort of thing in mind.

Bottom contact 3rd rail would be possible and permitted under the various safety regimes, but it would be a very expensive solution to this, and is never going to happen as the alternative options are far more sensible.
 

James_D

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Joined
30 Oct 2015
Messages
66
Location
Sunderland
Aside from how it gets built, its interesting that this scheme will potentially drastically cut the journey times from the Sunderland stations to the West of the city centre, if passengers travel via Washington rather than via Seaburn. From the current 39 minutes from South Hylton to around 25 minutes.

Next step surely would be to adapt the Boldon New Curve to Metro running, to allow a South Shields to Sunderland service/loop, likely onward to Washington, but how do you then get it running then onto South Shields again?

A flyover at Pelaw?
Complicated junction/crossing at the top of the bank at the existing Pelaw junction where the South Shields/Sunderland services currently divert?
Reversing at Pelaw?

Or, if you want to spend a bit more money, at the North end of the Leamside, create a East facing junction adjacent to Wardley, utilising the old alignment of the Pontop and Jarrow Railway, now the Bowes Railway Path. The new route can then rejoin the DCL West of Fellgate station in the area of the B1306 Mill Lane and Monkton Business Park, allowing direct running back to South Shields after Brockley Whins via Boldon West Curve.
 

The exile

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31 Mar 2010
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Somerset
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It’s not the fact that it’s light rail, metro or heavy rail. If top contact third rail is easily accessible to the public or staff it would be considered a shock danger whatever the purpose of the system, as the risks are exactly the same.
f course, being brand new it wouldn’t have to be top contact. Still seems like an expensive solution in search of a problem.
 

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