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National Express Coaches Discussion

DaveLondon

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5 May 2019
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130
Think all new National Express Caetano coaches are Scania engined, so Dennis Park wont want to buy the new Caetano coaches, but this only what i have heard from drivers etc, so could be wrong, would need confirming by someone more in the know. I dont know either how long National Express contracts last for, or wether they just carry on long as the operator want the contract.
They are not Scania engined as such - they are Scania chassis. The delay on deliveries of Volvo B13R was linked to delays at Caetano retooling for the Volvo B13R chassis. I am pretty certain they could not afford to do this so the Volvo option is no longer available. The Caetano website seems to confirm this.
 
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Eyersey468

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How often are contacts up for renewal? What’s the delay with Volvo? They aren’t making them or they have massive leadtimes?
Flix also now have the 25 plates running in the SW so they could do with catching up
The delay with Volvo is that they will be built on a brand new chassis so the bodywork had to be modified to fit the chassis. We originally ordered Volvos but switched the order to Scania as Volvos won't be available until early next year at best.
 

Mwanesh

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Parks Of Hamilton Plymouth Depot, also have a mostly old fleet of Caetano‘s, from 67 plates to 21 plates, which another reason why go from Cardiff, as Edward’s who do the 509, have mostly 73-24 plate coaches, with a few older ones. Parks of Hamilton haven’t had any new coaches for a while, so wouldnt be surprised, that if they not get newer coaches soon, they could lose contract to Edwards.

The reason Parks of Hamilton could lose contract, is if memory correct, National Express dont like coaches older than 5 years old, and Dennis Parks, owner of Parks Of Hamilton, from what heard only likes Volvo engined coaches, so there delay in getting new coaches, which could end up with them losing contract to Edward’s, if Edward’s prepared take on these contracts too.
7 years is the lifespan of coaches on NX work.There is lots of 67 and 68 plates that are due for replacement this year .
 

DaveLondon

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The delay with Volvo is that they will be built on a brand new chassis so the bodywork had to be modified to fit the chassis. We originally ordered Volvos but switched the order to Scania as Volvos won't be available until early next year at best.
The chassis is not brand new but fairly new. I was interested to hear that it will be made available on the Volvo chassis although other sources had indicated that Caetano was unable to afford/justify the retooling needed. Time will tell I guess.
 

Eyersey468

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7 years is the lifespan of coaches on NX work.There is lots of 67 and 68 plates that are due for replacement this year .
I believe they switched it to 5 years when our 68 reg Levante 3s were new, then because of Covid everything got an extra year, then because of problems getting new vehicles everything got an indefinite extension, now they have gone back to 7 years or under a certain mileage
 

henryb

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27 Nov 2021
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So does this mean parks will have to get new coaches?
I believe they switched it to 5 years when our 68 reg Levante 3s were new, then because of Covid everything got an extra year, then because of problems getting new vehicles everything got an indefinite extension, now they have gone back to 7 years or under a certain mileage
 

Wilko82

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So does this mean parks will have to get new coaches?
I wouldn't be so sure as Park's seem to be a law to themselves as they know they have got National Express over a barrel due to no other operator wanting the majority of South Devon/Cornwall work. Previously Park's had an old fleet and just stuck private plates on their vehicles, so customers didn't know how old their fleet actually was.
 

cambsy

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Parks Of Hamilton main work is Scottish citylink, from their Hamilton depot, and they have bought a lot of the New Volvo double deckers, so with their Plymouth depot being fairly small and National Express being work being limited compared to Scottish, i think Plymouth depot is bit of an after thought, so they not bothered updating its fleet.

I think if National Express I would ask Edward’s if they would like take over more South West contracts, as Edward’s already run to Penzance and Bideford, and have bought large number of 24 and newer plates Caetano’s. I remember when they had private number plates. I will be keeping eye out for when Parks get new coaches for Plymouth depot,
 

Mwanesh

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Parks Of Hamilton main work is Scottish citylink, from their Hamilton depot, and they have bought a lot of the New Volvo double deckers, so with their Plymouth depot being fairly small and National Express being work being limited compared to Scottish, i think Plymouth depot is bit of an after thought, so they not bothered updating its fleet.

I think if National Express I would ask Edward’s if they would like take over more South West contracts, as Edward’s already run to Penzance and Bideford, and have bought large number of 24 and newer plates Caetano’s. I remember when they had private number plates. I will be keeping eye out for when Parks get new coaches for Plymouth depot,
Go South Coast could do the work from Plymouth if they wanted to they are a contractor already on the network .
 

cambsy

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Mwanesh,, I suppose Go south Coast could do Parks south West contract, but I dont know where there depots are, but I know where Edward’s depots are, and they are Avonmouth and Llantwit Fadre near Cardiff. As Edwards cover Penzance and Bideford, they are best placed to cover Parks work, if Parks wont buy new Scania Caetano’s, or decide pull out of National Express work and concentrate on Scottish Citylink work.
 

nick291

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7 years is the lifespan of coaches on NX work.There is lots of 67 and 68 plates that are due for replacement this year .
The 18 plate Boa Vista's have come off the network recently. 2, maybe more, have gone to Walter's Coaches in Oxford.
 

43066

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7 years is the lifespan of coaches on NX work.There is lots of 67 and 68 plates that are due for replacement this year .

Out of interest, what kind of mileage are they accruing on an annual basis?
 

WibbleWobble

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Mwanesh,, I suppose Go south Coast could do Parks south West contract, but I dont know where there depots are, but I know where Edward’s depots are, and they are Avonmouth and Llantwit Fadre near Cardiff. As Edwards cover Penzance and Bideford, they are best placed to cover Parks work, if Parks wont buy new Scania Caetano’s, or decide pull out of National Express work and concentrate on Scottish Citylink work.
Go South Coast isn't a NatEx contractor, they haven't been for around four years after the work was taken in-house. They are a Flix operator instead now. Plus it is a bit far given Plymouth Citybus are in the area!
 

MotCO

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25 Aug 2014
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Parks Of Hamilton main work is Scottish citylink, from their Hamilton depot, and they have bought a lot of the New Volvo double deckers, so with their Plymouth depot being fairly small and National Express being work being limited compared to Scottish, i think Plymouth depot is bit of an after thought, so they not bothered updating its fleet.
I seem to remember Parks doing a Scotland - Cornwall run, so is that why they established a small base there?
 

Eyersey468

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Out of interest, what kind of mileage are they accruing on an annual basis?
Our 68 plates are either at or approaching a million km, though they were off the road for months during Covid, so it's over 100000 miles a year they do
 

Dwarfer1979

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I seem to remember Parks doing a Scotland - Cornwall run, so is that why they established a small base there?
They bought Trathens in the mid-90's, which at the time was a fairly sizeable NatEx contractor in the south-west (if slightly tarnished with some issues with VOSA).
 

Blindtraveler

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Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
It was an overnight Edinburgh Plymouth and I think one or two other bits, the Edinburgh Plymouth used to be the Edinburgh Penzance, which I always thought was the craziest service ever, leaving Edinburgh late evening and getting to Penzance late afternoon the following day.
 

cambsy

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I dont know what mileage National Express coaches get retired at , but think its more based on age of coach. Mentioned Edwards could take over from Parks, as they already doing National Express work, and they have depot Bristol and cover parts of South West, so be fairly for easy for them take over from Parks.

Parks used to do various services:

570 London-Blackpool,
336 Penzance and then Plymouth to Edinburgh (overnight)
424 London-Blackpool (overnieght,)
592 London-Aberdeen (overnight,)
Man Airport-Aberdeen(not sure number)
and similar South west services to now.

Trathens were taken over by parks because they were notorious for breaking speed limits and drivers hours, and they even advertised at one point they could match London-Exeter train times, with some urban myths of them hitting 100 mph plus with double deckers back in 70’s and 80’s. Parks aren’t perfect either with one of their double decker Neoplans over turning near Heathrow due to speeding around the bends leading to M25.
 

Wilko82

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Mwanesh,, I suppose Go south Coast could do Parks south West contract, but I dont know where there depots are, but I know where Edward’s depots are, and they are Avonmouth and Llantwit Fadre near Cardiff. As Edwards cover Penzance and Bideford, they are best placed to cover Parks work, if Parks wont buy new Scania Caetano’s, or decide pull out of National Express work and concentrate on Scottish Citylink work.


As mentioned previously Go South Coast aren't a NX operator any longer and with them taking on Flixbus work they won't be returning anytime soon. Edwards might cover Penzance with the 104 and 106 services, but that works well for them as they are interworked together and with the 100 service from Bristol to Digbeth. I just can't see Edwards coming in and taking over as it would be nigh on impossible to do so from their current nearest full depot at Avonmouth.

Park's probably know this and they have NX over a barrel because they know they're the only operator down there who can cover the work, as shown by how long they have operated the work down there, both in their current form, but also in their previous guise as Trathens.
 

cambsy

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I suppose Edward’s could buy out Parks Of Hamilton Plymouth depot, And use that to do South West contracts, as Parks possibly more interested in their Hamilton depot and doing Scottish Citylink work. It must be a bit of a pain running a depot in Plymouth when headquarters in Hamilton, and their contracts are quite a bit less now for National Express.
 

GusB

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I suppose Edward’s could buy out Parks Of Hamilton Plymouth depot, And use that to do South West contracts, as Parks possibly more interested in their Hamilton depot and doing Scottish Citylink work. It must be a bit of a pain running a depot in Plymouth when headquarters in Hamilton, and their contracts are quite a bit less now for National Express.
Why would it be a pain running a depot in a remote location?

Using your (rather silly) logic, Stagecoach and First should immeditately divest their operations outwith Scotland.

Think all new National Express Caetano coaches are Scania engined, so Dennis Park wont want to buy the new Caetano coaches, but this only what i have heard from drivers etc, so could be wrong, would need confirming by someone more in the know. I dont know either how long National Express contracts last for, or wether they just carry on long as the operator want the contract.
Who is "Dennis Park"?

I assume that you're referring to Douglas Park. You need do a wee bit more research before spouting your usual nonsense.
 

nick291

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Who is "Dennis Park"?

I assume that you're referring to Douglas Park. You need do a wee bit more research before spouting your usual nonsense.
Dennis Park sounds like a failed chassis for a bus ngl. And as mentioned with remote depots, Edwards have operating bases away from their HQ in Cardiff for NX stuff and it seems to be a profitable venture for them. An upside if they were to take over the SW England stuff is they know the business already and would be preapared to invest in it at least. Plus Avonmouth is on the way to London so could easily send a staff shuttle car/coach into Gordano Services and the like to do a driver change or if operational issues occur. They already send the 502 into Bristol to do driver changes, so I can't see how it would be any different from that tbh.
 

Deerfold

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Trathens were taken over by parks because they were notorious for breaking speed limits and drivers hours, and they even advertised at one point they could match London-Exeter train times, with some urban myths of them hitting 100 mph plus with double deckers back in 70’s and 80’s.
That sounds more like a list of reasons for not taking over a company.
 

Wilko82

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From memory I'm sure it's somewhere round the 900k km mark now or 7 years whichever is first
Park's vehicles, especially their Levante 2's will have done a lot more than that. They essentially run them into the ground 24/7 with many of them not returning to the depot for days, even more so pre-covid when they also had base in Rochdale. It is no wonder that they have reliability problems when the coaches get so little downtime/maintenance and are constantly driven to the limit.
 

Cesarcollie

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5 Jun 2016
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Park's vehicles, especially their Levante 2's will have done a lot more than that. They essentially run them into the ground 24/7 with many of them not returning to the depot for days, even more so pre-covid when they also had base in Rochdale. It is no wonder that they have reliability problems when the coaches get so little downtime/maintenance and are constantly driven to the limit.

NX carry out regular and pretty strict audits of engineering standards on all their contracted operators - somewhat stricter than DVSA.
 

Wilko82

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NX carry out regular and pretty strict audits of engineering standards on all their contracted operators - somewhat stricter than DVSA.
If that is true then that is more proof that Park's have NX wrapped around their finger and that Park's get treated 'differently' to everyone else. As mentioned previously Trathens were always falling foul of speed and tacho infringements and Park's were and still are no different. For example, the driver involved in the 2007 Heathrow crash had numerous previous speeding offences and had been found to have tampered and adjusted the speed limiter, but Park's continued to employ him. I am led to believe that the reason he wasn't sacked was because this was (and possibly still is) a regular occurrence and a blind eye was turned. It shows how little their driving standards are when one of (their now ex) drivers put on social media complaining about how he ws caught speeding and he didn't know what the speed limit of coaches were.
 

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