Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

[RealTrains07]

Interesting how quick the Connex livery is going compared to how long it took NSE to dissappear. Improvements in wrapping technology?

I mean considering how long it has taken SE to even get round to this stage of the refurbishment is a miracle. Its taken so long the process has outlived the go-ahead franchise

Very unhappy to be corrected! Southeastern probably needs to acquire more trains to fill the gaps soon.

I have also had the same thought. I mean granted with a double 707s. Southeastern can replace a double 465 and 466 combined 10 car set like for like but then again how many 465s and 466s are going??

Replacing like for like to remove older examples is one thing but removing trains that aren’t getting replaced is capacity SE should not be playing with. Especially when you look at what Southern did and the mess they were left in.

How many 465s and 466s are being replaced by 377s and 707s directly (and indirectly if applicable)

 

[ls2270]

If we did a cross comparison of quoted acceleration rates, the 377 appears to win out slightly. 377s are quoted at 0.67ms2, whereas 375s are 0.62ms2.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2025 ==

There's a scrap drag in for this Thursday, but unlike recent drags, this one is bound for Kingsbury rather than Newport:

Realtime Trains | 5Q66 0852 Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Kingsbury Emr Sidings | 05/06/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q66 0852 departure from Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Kingsbury Emr Sidings on 05/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

5Q66 is 37884 hauling 465017 and 466013.

 

[45076]

5Q66 is 37884 hauling 465017 and 466013.

Should that be 466017?

 

[ls2270]

Should that be 466017?

Interesting! The official notification from ROG clearly states 465017, even showing the correct coach numbers for that unit. I was dubious as I didn’t think any 465/0s were stored and now I check TRUST 465017 is working 2C12 0723 Dartford to Charing Cross!

 

[SEtrains]

Should that be 466017?

Perhaps 465917?

 

[Qwertl]

465017 is middle unit of 12 in service on plat 3 at Charing Cross right now.

 

[Robin Edwards]

5Q66 today was 37800 + 465917 + 466013

 

[ScotGG]

So we're expecting an announcement at the spending review on new stock? It's now 33 months since the tender was first announced.

 

[frankmoh]

I mean considering how long it has taken SE to even get round to this stage of the refurbishment is a miracle. Its taken so long the process has outlived the go-ahead franchise

I have also had the same thought. I mean granted with a double 707s. Southeastern can replace a double 465 and 466 combined 10 car set like for like but then again how many 465s and 466s are going??

Replacing like for like to remove older examples is one thing but removing trains that aren’t getting replaced is capacity SE should not be playing with. Especially when you look at what Southern did and the mess they were left in.

How many 465s and 466s are being replaced by 377s and 707s directly (and indirectly if applicable)

Even looking at the /0s and /1s, which have not been scrapped or stored so its a consistent number right now, there are 97 BREL/ABB Class 465s but only 30 Class 707s. The City Beams are supplemented on the metro routes with the 36 Class 376s but still that's 66 newer trains compared to at least 97 Networkers.
I've just pulled those numbers off of Wikipedia though and I have no clue if they are counting the trains as singles or doubles.

If every 465/0 and 465/1 is doubled for some reason, that would make 48 8-car trains which seems more reasonable alongside the 30 10-car double City Beams - 707s may be 5-car but I have only ever seen them run 10-car.
This would leave one spare 4-car 465/1 to run up and down the Bromley North Line or something.

As for the 466s, they don't run on their own anymore so you can effectively assign one to go alongside a single or doubled 465. It would also square up much better for a 10-car 465/466 against a 10-car 707.

 

[Chorley Cake]

Does anybody know of 466041’s status ? Is it still in service ?

 

[Milo T.K]

Does anybody know of 466041’s status ? Is it still in service ?

I think I have seen it I have to double check though

 

[Robin Edwards]

Does anybody know of 466041’s status ? Is it still in service ?

Yes - seen at London Bridge this week

 

[Chorley Cake]

Yes - seen at London Bridge this week

Thanks Robin

 

[Busman]

The 1996 Jubilee stock frequently achieve 60mph, so not far off the Networkers.

Really? What part of the line? Stanmore end?

 

[PaulJ]

Does anybody know of 466041’s status ? Is it still in service ?

I was just looking through my pics and lo and behold, here it is at Tonbridge on 22 May.

 

[reddragon]

Really? What part of the line? Stanmore end?

My understanding is it's on the JLE auto section.

 

[Chorley Cake]

I was just looking through my pics and lo and behold, here it is at Tonbridge on 22 May.

Nice one, thanks

 

[brad465]

If every 465/0 and 465/1 is doubled for some reason, that would make 48 8-car trains which seems more reasonable alongside the 30 10-car double City Beams - 707s may be 5-car but I have only ever seen them run 10-car.
This would leave one spare 4-car 465/1 to run up and down the Bromley North Line or something.

There are only 30x 707s, so if they were all doubled up there would be 15x pairs. Over the last BH weekend there were solo 707s on Sidcup-Gravesend services, which makes sense as demand would have been low, but otherwise yes they are rarely seen solo. If they were allocated on Cannon St services more I could see 5-cars being more common, as these services reduce in length off peak, but these are mainly Networker and 376 operations.

 

[frankmoh]

There are only 30x 707s, so if they were all doubled up there would be 15x pairs. Over the last BH weekend there were solo 707s on Sidcup-Gravesend services, which makes sense as demand would have been low, but otherwise yes they are rarely seen solo. If they were allocated on Cannon St services more I could see 5-cars being more common, as these services reduce in length off peak, but these are mainly Networker and 376 operations.

So there is still 50+ 8-car 465s compared to 15 10-car 707s and 18 10-car 376s. And yet somehow the 465s are meant to be gone in 5 years or something?

 

[RealTrains07]

So there is still 50+ 8-car 465s compared to 15 10-car 707s and 18 10-car 376s. And yet somehow the 465s are meant to be gone in 5 years or something?

Exactly and considering the 376s have worked alongside the whole networker fleet for years, it would be odd for 376s alone to replace networkers at this point.

Isn’t it unrealistic to remove majority of the networker fleet now??, Gotta retain some otherwise too many short forms or cancelled services?
Can’t run the most of the metro operation on 15 10 car 707s and 18 10 car 376s?

 

[Mikey C]

Obviously some new stock will be ordered to replace the majority of the remaining Networkers. Or else they'll just continue in service.

 

[Wheelspinz]

I'd love to know how the Networkers got such superb acceleration, but the 375 and 376 fleets have lower acceleration rates despite being newer. Eversholt quote the 465 acceleration as 0.98ms-2, 376s as 0.66ms-2, while 375s are 0.62ms-2. I can understand the latter being lower as it's geared for a higher top speed, but the 376 acceleration rate, and the rate of other metro fleets that have come in later years, somehow being slower than something introduced in the early 90s seems backwards.

465's have 8 AC motors in two DMOS for a 4 car, whereas before them for 'modern' EMU's such 319/455's there was 4 DC motors for 4 vehicles. Not sure for 37x.

707's also have eight motors (pretty sure AC TM) but 5 vehicles and have acceleration of 0.85 m/s-2 so in-between 46x and 37x

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jun 2025 ==

Interesting how quick the Connex livery is going compared to how long it took NSE to dissappear. Improvements in wrapping technology?

NSE to Southeastern livery on 465/466's is not vinyl and was painted (except the bottom blue band to fade on top of paint) at a facility such as the off patch Doncaster, so takes much longer than putting vinyl on top of the previous livery, which is being done at on patch depot. Vinyl on top of the previous livery only takes a few days, painting at another facility takes more like weeks per unit and needs to be taken too and from the location.

 

[43096]

707's also have eight motors (pretty sure AC TM) but 5 vehicles and have acceleration of 0.85 m/s-2 so in-between 46x and 37x

Pretty much every EMU since the Networkers has had AC traction motors - the only real exception being the 325 Royal Mail units, which were derived from the Class 319 so had DC chopper-controlled motors.

 

[Wheelspinz]

Pretty much every EMU since the Networkers has had AC traction motors - the only real exception being the 325 Royal Mail units, which were derived from the Class 319 so had DC chopper-controlled motors.

Makes sense, I've not been as involved with the traction systems of newer units from Electrostars onwards as i was for previous EMU's.

 

[43096]

Makes sense, I've not been as involved with the traction systems of newer units from Electrostars onwards as i was for previous EMU's.

The outlier since the mid-90s has been locomotives, specifically classes 66 and 67 which have DC motors, even though the technology was well advanced by the time they were built - EWS's US influence wasn't a reason as GE's AC4400CW and EMD's SD70MAC were well into production. I suspect it was more down to the Railtrack acceptance procedure and the greater difficulty of getting AC-powered traction approved at the time. Class 92 was AC motors, of course, and the subsequent Class 68/70/88/93 have been too.

 

[RealTrains07]

Obviously some new stock will be ordered to replace the majority of the remaining Networkers. Or else they'll just continue in service.

Of course, obviously the tender process for said replacement is still ongoing. No matter what happens, whatever is left of the 456 and 466 fleets after the current scrapings stop will need replacing in the late 2020s early 2030s.

 

[frankmoh]

Obviously some new stock will be ordered to replace the majority of the remaining Networkers. Or else they'll just continue in service.

I wonder how it would have played out if Great Northern sent the 365s back over to SE in 2020 instead of scrapping them. It seems criminal to scrap a train that at the latest was refurbished in 2016.

Obviously they would have to sort out getting third rail back but y'know.

 

[SEtrains]

707004/707008 are now fitted with the front end cameras. Does anyone have a list of all units fitted with the cameras?

 

[Mikey C]

I wonder how it would have played out if Great Northern sent the 365s back over to SE in 2020 instead of scrapping them. It seems criminal to scrap a train that at the latest was refurbished in 2016.

Obviously they would have to sort out getting third rail back but y'know.

The 365s would have been better suited to the mid Kent routes than the 465/9s certainly.

 

[Robin Edwards]

No drag move has been yet posted so far on RTT for tomorrow but ROG 37 arrives today at Ely. Newport or Kingsbury?