Line Speed for the Metropolitan line from Finchley Road to Moor Park?

[NXEA!]

The title says it all really, I was wondering if anybody knows where I can obtain the current linespeeds for the Metropolitan line from Finchley Road to Moor Park or if anybody knows what they are? I'd be interested how the fasts compare to the slows, and how the speed compares to the Jubilee line. I was on a Chesham fast yesterday to Moor Park from Baker Street and I caught a fast from Moor Park back to Wembley Park (points failure at Neasden), and both times, we seemed to be going extremely fast. When I caught the Jubilee Line back from Wembley Park to West Hampstead the A-Stock seemed to be going extremely fast when overtaking us between stations, and it seemed like the linespeed might have been a shade higher than the adjacent Network Rail tracks if anybody can confirm. Anyway, I look forward to your replies.

 

[driver9000]

I'm pretty sure the Fasts are either 50 or 60mph. The A60s have always romped along at a fair old pace whenever I've been up that end of the Met.

 

[AlterEgo]

Aren't the A60s limited to 50mph these days? (Soon they'll be limited to 0mph....../teary eye)

 

[NXEA!]

I'm pretty sure the Fasts are either 50 or 60mph. The A60s have always romped along at a fair old pace whenever I've been up that end of the Met.

Yeah, I saw a 60 sign in the London direction around Moor Park. On the journey up to Moor Park we were early at Harrow and Moor Park and the driver sat there both times for about 3 minutes or so, and on the journey there we really seemed to be shifting at a good pace especially around Dollis Hill, we overtook a 1998 stock train and roared through and clattered over some pointwork rather loudly. And after Harrow we seemed to be going rather quick too. However on the way back we didn't seem to go particularly quick, so I think the driver up to Moor Park enjoys ragging them a bit.

 

[driver9000]

I think you might be right Alter Ego regarding the A60s being restricted to 50mph although I'm not sure if they are governed to stop them going over 50mph. It's been a while since I was using the Met regularly although I was on an A60 not long ago that was giving a lively ride at speed Far more lively than I remember it!

 

[RPM]

Yes the fast lines are 60 once clear of Harrow North Junction. Drops down to 50 at Moor Park. The A60s may not be able to do 60 but the Chiltern services certainly do.

 

[headshot119]

A stock is limited to 50MPH with a design speed of 70MPH

 

[tom1649]

A stock is limited to 50MPH with a design speed of 70MPH

Yes officially limited to 50mph, although there is nothing to stop them being 'unofficially' pushed to go faster. There are no on train data recorders etc.

Can the new S Stock run at 70mph I wonder?

 

[causton]

Yes officially limited to 50mph, although there is nothing to stop them being 'unofficially' pushed to go faster. There are no on train data recorders etc.

Can the new S Stock run at 70mph I wonder?

At the moment they are 'limited' to a nominal A stock profile (meaning that any poor condition A stock units will still be slower) - but I have heard a max speed quoted of 62mph... not too sure though! Of course, it's more about frequency than speed, hence December's no fast/semi-fasts outside the peaks

 

[Metrailway]

General speed limits on the Met
Amersham - north of Rickmansworth: 60mph
Watford South Junction - Harrow North Junction: 60mph on fasts, 50mph on slows
Harrow South - Wembley Park: 50mph on both slow and fasts
Wembley Park - Finchley Road: 50mph
City sections: 30 or 35mph
Chesham Branch: 35mph
Watford Branch: 50mph

As A Stock is not permitted (it actually isn't limited; if you're lucky you can get on one going above 60mph on the fasts!) to go above 50mph, the 60mph limits are for the Chiltern 165, 168 units. Back in the old days, you would get a 70mph run from Finchley Road to Watford South on an A Stock, with slacks only at Wembley (50mph) and Harrow. Thus you would actually see a proper race between the A Stocks and Class 115/165s all the way between Finchley Road and Harrow.

For the Chiltern lines
Harrow South - Neasden South: 75mph
Neasden South - Willesden Green: 60mph
South of Willesden Green: 50mph (don't know how far south this goes)

Source: ME I was a regular commuter on the line to Aylesbury for 10 years!

 

[cle]

Those linespeeds could really do with raising, especially the Chiltern ones! South of Neasden would benefit all services too - but Amersham/Aylesbury journey times are quite poor in terms of distance, so could definitely do with improvement.

 

[Metrailway]

Those linespeeds could really do with raising, especially the Chiltern ones! South of Neasden would benefit all services too - but Amersham/Aylesbury journey times are quite poor in terms of distance, so could definitely do with improvement.

You are right to say that journey times are poor, according to Network Rail, the car is only 11 minutes slower in 'congested' peak, and 5 minutes faster in 'un-congested' off-peak for Aylesbury - London services (source:here)

LUL have recently replaced the fast tracks north of Harrow, so hopefully once the A Stock is fully retired, the speeds return back to 70mph. I know Chiltern isn't happy with the situation - 10 years ago 165s were timetabled to do Harrow to Rickmansworth in 7 minutes; now it takes 13 minutes!

Network Rail also say that Aylesbury trains will be severely overcrowded by 2019, so if the resignalling of the Met (c2016) is delayed, preventing more Met trains between Amersham - Harrow, the future looks bleak for commuters on the north end of the line.

 

[cle]

Aren't all off peak Amersham and Chesham services now stoppers? Or planned to be?

In which case, the 2tph Chilterns would have plenty of room to go above 70mph if it was signalled for it? Longer term, making north/west of Moor Park Chiltern only might enable faster linespeeds - although S stocks vs. 165s will accelerate much better!

 

[Zoe]

Aren't all off peak Amersham and Chesham services now stoppers? Or planned to be?

From December. The fast peak services will also call additionaly at Wembley Park.

 

[Metroman62]

Aren't all off peak Amersham and Chesham services now stoppers? Or planned to be?

There are plans to make all off peak Amersham / Chesham services stop all stations from December.

There are concerns that the extra use of Watford South junction with trains crossing to and from the slow lines will cause delays and have a knock on affect to Chiltern by delaying them and not giving their trains priority as is the case now.

Also, the Chiltern trains may become fuller as people avoid the then very slow Met services off peak

 

[RPM]

South of Willesden Green: 50mph (don't know how far south this goes)

It goes as far south as the station throat at Marylebone where it drops down to 25.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

LUL have recently replaced the fast tracks north of Harrow, so hopefully once the A Stock is fully retired, the speeds return back to 70mph.

They won't; unfortunately the S stock has a maximum speed of either 60 or 62mph depending on which source you listen to.

 

[Metrailway]

They won't; unfortunately the S stock has a maximum speed of either 60 or 62mph depending on which source you listen to.

Yes, you are quite right in stating that the max speed of the S Stock is 62mph, which is a shame. I was refering to the line speed to be raised for the 165/168s, but I guess I could have phrased it better. Before the early 2000s, the line speeds on the fasts north of Harrow were 70mph, and were dropped to 60mph due to the prohibition of A Stocks travelling above 50mph due to cracked bogies.

In which case, the 2tph Chilterns would have plenty of room to go above 70mph if it was signalled for it? Longer term, making north/west of Moor Park Chiltern only might enable faster linespeeds - although S stocks vs. 165s will accelerate much better!

On the line there is a sustained 1 in 105 climb from Rickmansworth all the way to Amersham where both A stock and 165s struggle to reach 60mph between stops so any rise in line speed in this section wouldn't have much impact on northbound journey times

 

[simple simon]

There are plans to make all off peak Amersham / Chesham services stop all stations from December.

There are concerns that the extra use of Watford South junction with trains crossing to and from the slow lines will cause delays and have a knock on affect to Chiltern by delaying them and not giving their trains priority as is the case now.

Also, the Chiltern trains may become fuller as people avoid the then very slow Met services off peak

What is up with the people at 55 Broadway?

(Slower trains, slower journeys, no seats....)

Or is it just a case of finishing off the 'dumbing down' process of the Met's services which began almost as soon as they got their hands on the Metropoltan Railway's services in 1933?

Simon

 

[Metrailway]

There are plans to make all off peak Amersham / Chesham services stop all stations from December.

There are concerns that the extra use of Watford South junction with trains crossing to and from the slow lines will cause delays and have a knock on affect to Chiltern by delaying them and not giving their trains priority as is the case now.

Also, the Chiltern trains may become fuller as people avoid the then very slow Met services off peak

What is up with the people at 55 Broadway?

(Slower trains, slower journeys, no seats....)

Or is it just a case of finishing off the 'dumbing down' process of the Met's services which began almost as soon as they got their hands on the Metropoltan Railway's services in 1933?

Simon

I believe they are reducing the Off-peak Watfords from 6 to 4tph, as Watford and Croxley don't need the intense service, so the Amersham/Cheshams run slow to fill the gap. Needless to say, the commuters on the leafy end are not happy.

It is ironic that this 'dumbing down process' is occuring in the days when the Met has more autonomy than before, whilst the A stock, specifically designed for the Met, was when there was little autonomy.

Looking at the very old Evergreen 3 plans, once it is fully complete, Aylesbury will get 3tph to London with 1tph going via the ex GW&GC Joint with a very similar time to the via Met services. Thus, the GW&GC Joint would be used again for it's original purpose - to avoid the Met!

 

[swt_passenger]

Looking at the very old Evergreen 3 plans, once it is fully complete, Aylesbury will get 3tph to London with 1tph going via the ex GW&GC Joint with a very similar time to the via Met services. Thus, the GW&GC Joint would be used again for it's original purpose - to avoid the Met!

The timetable for September 4th is out and still shows most of the joint line services having a change at Princes Risborough though...

http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/sites/default/files/September 2011 Chiltern services.pdf

 

[Metrailway]

I believe they are reducing the Off-peak Watfords from 6 to 4tph, as Watford and Croxley don't need the intense service, so the Amersham/Cheshams run slow to fill the gap. Needless to say, the commuters on the leafy end are not happy.

It is ironic that this 'dumbing down process' is occuring in the days when the Met has more autonomy than before, whilst the A stock, specifically designed for the Met, was when there was little autonomy.

Looking at the very old Evergreen 3 plans, once it is fully complete, Aylesbury will get 3tph to London with 1tph going via the ex GW&GC Joint with a very similar time to the via Met services. Thus, the GW&GC Joint would be used again for it's original purpose - to avoid the Met!

The timetable for September 4th is out and still shows most of the joint line services having a change at Princes Risborough though...

http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/sites/default/files/September 2011 Chiltern services.pdf

My plans were after the Bicester link to the Oxford line was complete. However, the plans I've seen were from the start of the project back in '09, so they probably have changed significantly.

 

[swt_passenger]

My plans were after the Bicester link to the Oxford line was complete. However, the plans I've seen were from the start of the project back in '09, so they probably have changed significantly.

Ah right - I didn't appreciate that, I thought you meant after the mainline changes were complete.

 

[Pete2210]

Although this isn't as silly as it sounds, but with the layout between cars of the S stock being the way it is, I wonder if LU would consider a trolley service of refreshments? A modern version of Mayflower and Galatea.

 

[simple simon]

Although this isn't as silly as it sounds, but with the layout between cars of the S stock being the way it is, I wonder if LU would consider a trolley service of refreshments? A modern version of Mayflower and Galatea.

I like the idea, especially for fast trains to Chesham. Bring back some glamour - the trains could be called "The Chesham Flyer".

Fast - Finchley Rd, Harrow-OTH, Moor Pk, all stns.

BUT it wont happen, as unlike the Pullman cars the S stock trains dont have toilets.

Simon

 

[Pete2210]

I like the idea, especially for fast trains to Chesham. Bring back some glamour - the trains could be called "The Chesham Flyer".

Fast - Finchley Rd, Harrow-OTH, Moor Pk, all stns.

BUT it wont happen, as unlike the Pullman cars the S stock trains dont have toilets.

Simon

Simon,

When I was Signalman at Rickmansworth back in the late 1970's the evening fast Chesham was known as the Chesham Flyer, in those days it was fast Finchley Road to Moor Park and was shown on the Signal Box describers as a CM6.

Pete

 

[jopsuk]

Although this isn't as silly as it sounds, but with the layout between cars of the S stock being the way it is, I wonder if LU would consider a trolley service of refreshments? A modern version of Mayflower and Galatea.

Would there be, on peak hour services, space?

 

[Metrailway]

Would there be, on peak hour services, space?

Currently most morning peaks have a few people standing by the time they reach Rickmansworth. So with less seats on the S Stock, I guess there wouldn't be.

 

[Zoe]

From December it is planned that peak Amsersham/Chesham services will call additionally at Wembley Park so these trains may well be even busier than now.

 

[simple simon]

Simon,

When I was Signalman at Rickmansworth back in the late 1970's the evening fast Chesham was known as the Chesham Flyer, in those days it was fast Finchley Road to Moor Park and was shown on the Signal Box describers as a CM6.

Pete

Pete, some of the first films I put on Youtube several years ago showed these trains non-stopping Harrow-On-The-Hill. Sometimes they used platform 4, other times platform 6.

Simon