Proposed new Liverpool & Manchester Railway

[Topological]

And so the cycle begins. Shocking to begin this on a lie. Honesty is how to start this, and if it doesn't wash its face, stop.

Perhaps they could locate a Liverpool terminus 10 mins walk from Lime Street to help maximize the analogies, and delay the tunnel to Man Pic when they're two years in..

Having a reason to exist matters more.

Speed is not the motivation: https://greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk...ailway-plan-could-unlock-90bn-economic-boost/
It's actually about bringing more workforce to within 30 minutes of Manc/Liverpool. From that webpage:


I don't see why 30 minutes is a goal - 45 minutes would also work, but I also don't see why it needs to go to Manchester airport to achieve that goal either

There is an obsession with missing airports. Manchester Airport is a major source of inbound traffic to the region and therefore merits a stop on the line. This means that Liverpool becomes quickly reachable from many destinations around the world.

The commuting goal mentioned is right, but there are many other ways of achieving that goal. Simply having ONLY stopping services would achieve the goal without needing any new railway.

It is a big bonus that the tunnel is exactly the one HS2 will need to reach Manchester.

 

[fishwomp]

There is an obsession with missing airports. Manchester Airport is a major source of inbound traffic to the region and therefore merits a stop on the line. This means that Liverpool becomes quickly reachable from many destinations around the world.

Not really an obsession - just an observation that going the long way round makes the rest of the target more ambitious and requires a higher-speed build - and airports aren't the stated goal, the population nearby may be though..

The commuting goal mentioned is right, but there are many other ways of achieving that goal. Simply having ONLY stopping services would achieve the goal without needing any new railway.

True.
Or a new, regular speed commuter line by reopening the Fiddlers Ferry route to bring more people living near a railway station.. Perhaps a stopping service from Liverpool to Warrington BQ via the Fiddlers Ferry line .. and leave it at that. This'd also open up regeneration and new-build new-town potential.

It is a big bonus that the tunnel is exactly the one HS2 will need to reach Manchester.

Hmm, better check that build cost estimate then...

 

[Topological]

Not really an obsession - just an observation that going the long way round makes the rest of the target more ambitious and requires a higher-speed build - and airports aren't the stated goal, the population nearby may be though..

Isn't this part of the thread about the wrong arguments made for the line. Whilst it may not be loud, connectivity to the world via Manchester Airport will definitely be part of the thinking.

True.
Or a new, regular speed commuter line by reopening the Fiddlers Ferry route to bring more people living near a railway station.. Perhaps a stopping service from Liverpool to Warrington BQ via the Fiddlers Ferry line .. and leave it at that. This'd also open up regeneration and new-build new-town potential.

That could work, were that really the aim. Hence, we know that connectivity of the population to the local centre is not the aim. Having more local trains on the infrastructure because the fasts are now using a new line is allowing this to be spun as being about travel to work.

Hmm, better check that build cost estimate then...

At least it makes HS2 cheaper by the tunnel, the Manchester Airport station and however much of the line the two routes share West from the airport.

Not a huge dent, but every little helps.

 

[Sonik]

At least it makes HS2 cheaper by the tunnel, the Manchester Airport station and however much of the line the two routes share West from the airport.

An important point here is that a new HS station at Manchester can increase capacity even with a gap in HS2, because it will allow much longer trains (thus more seats per WCML path)

All that would be needed is the link to Crewe

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is there already enough rail services in total between Liverpool and Manchester and also the M62 for motor vehicles of all grades, commercial and private.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there already enough rail services in total between Liverpool and Manchester and also the M62 for motor vehicles of all grades, commercial and private.

The local service on both the CLC and Chat Moss is woeful. It should be 4tph like Merseyrail but this isn't possible with the fast services there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2025 ==

Or a new, regular speed commuter line by reopening the Fiddlers Ferry route to bring more people living near a railway station.. Perhaps a stopping service from Liverpool to Warrington BQ via the Fiddlers Ferry line .. and leave it at that. This'd also open up regeneration and new-build new-town potential.

Look at a map. The location of the FF route is such that it doesn't usefully serve anywhere that isn't served, nor is it particularly useful for new town development as the Ship Canal is in the way. Thus it's the perfect target for a fast non stop (bar Warrington) service to free up capacity on the other two lines.

By the way if you did want a new town having done that, one centred on Glazebrook station would work perfectly well.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The local service on both the CLC and Chat Moss is woeful. It should be 4tph like Merseyrail but this isn't possible with the fast services there.

Possibly a reason why the M62 carries so much traffic. Where is the supposed passenger demand for 4tph?

 

[The Ham]

An important point here is that a new HS station at Manchester can increase capacity even with a gap in HS2, because it will allow much longer trains (thus more seats per WCML path)

All that would be needed is the link to Crewe

The potential for extra capacity on local services is quite noticeable just from just removing one platform worth of long distance services (2tph) as not only can you typically turn local services in a shorter time, showing 3tph to use the same platform. Add to that the capacity from those space those services used to use which can be used to lengthen other services.

Possibly a reason why the M62 carries so much traffic. Where is the supposed passenger demand for 4tph?

From those who currently are driving.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

From those who currently are driving.

One of my friends used his company car to daily commute from Litherland to the Trafford Centre via the M62. How would his train journey compare time-wise? His nearest home railway station is Seaforth & Litherland, a mile away from his home. Are you suggesting that company cars are banned?

 

[Topological]

One of my friends used his company car to daily commute from Litherland to the Trafford Centre via the M62. How would his train journey compare time-wise? His nearest home railway station is Seaforth & Litherland, a mile away from his home. Are you suggesting that company cars are banned?

Not all those who are currently driving.

Importantly, the aim is to develop the area and support inward investment. Such investment means that the likely commuters do not even live in the area yet to use any of the currrent options.

I suspect no one looked at the Irwell and thought since there are no large ships we do not need a ship canal? Likewise, no one looked at the limited travel between Manchester and Liverpool and thought why does anyone need a railway?

The very definition of cities is always evolving and increasingly that means city regions that subsume much of the current geographrical separation in the UK. It is inevitable since UK cities evolved at a time when there were no trains or cars.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The two northern mayors of the two involved conurbations see improvements to bus travel as their first main priority as that would benefit the far greater number of their residents.

 

[WAO]

NPR looks to me like a solution searching for a problem. It is advocated by lobbies who want the contracts (like HS2) and by new Mayors who want headline grabbing schemes (paid for by someone else). The proposed extra tramways look largely similar; in that case the best way of spending the maximum capital on the minimum extra route km and the slowest middle distance journey time.

If a problem is identified then options should be looked at from do-nothing , through incremental additions to existing assets, to HS3+. Each one should be (honestly) assessed for cost and benefit and an open, public judgement formed.

Some chance.

WAO

 

[Topological]

The two northern mayors of the two involved conurbations see improvements to bus travel as their first main priority as that would benefit the far greater number of their residents.

Sensible, but you can have multiple priorities over different time frames.

 

[fishwomp]

One of my friends used his company car to daily commute from Litherland to the Trafford Centre via the M62. How would his train journey compare time-wise? His nearest home railway station is Seaforth & Litherland, a mile away from his home. Are you suggesting that company cars are banned?

It'd compare badly! I'm surprised at how badly connected Trafford Centre's metrolink appears to be to mainline rail, if coming in from the west you have to get to Castlefield to use it.

Most people don't live in city centres and most employment is no longer in city centres, even the shopping centres in centres have declined due to out-of-town centres. Business meetings now are more likely to happen online than before, so centre to centre on its own isn't as necessary for commerce.

But.. stations just outside centres of cities - formerly peripheral working places with big factories - have also declined or gone, as the periphery just isn't concentrated any more: stations like Attercliffe Road, Brightside (Sheffield) - both gone, or Ardwick (11 trains a week - Sugar Loaf halt had more passengers) and Miles Platting (gone)..

The two northern mayors of the two involved conurbations see improvements to bus travel as their first main priority as that would benefit the far greater number of their residents.

.. and this type of thing is the solution - we can't expect to have heavy rail within 1km of everyone.

Where I live, I'm about 1.5 miles from a major station, and I'm active and confident enough to cycle that at the drop of the hat. Most people aren't. That guaranteed 15 minutes bike (unlock, lock, walk from cycle stands to platform) experience compares with a 30-40 minute bus experience (walk to bus stop, wait, 20-25 mins on bus), a 20 minute taxi. We actually have very good bus provision - but as you can see, it's not fast.

If a 30 minute train journey starts and ends with 15-30 minutes of other transport options - then that's 1-1.5 hours - and unless you're in a gridlocked city, the car wins for most people.

 

[Topological]

NPR looks to me like a solution searching for a problem. It is advocated by lobbies who want the contracts (like HS2) and by new Mayors who want headline grabbing schemes (paid for by someone else). The proposed extra tramways look largely similar; in that case the best way of spending the maximum capital on the minimum extra route km and the slowest middle distance journey time.

If a problem is identified then options should be looked at from do-nothing , through incremental additions to existing assets, to HS3+. Each one should be (honestly) assessed for cost and benefit and an open, public judgement formed.

Some chance.

WAO

Manchester is subject to a lot of constraints because of the rail infrastructure. Meanwhile, the city is developing at a rapid pace.

The benefit of faster journeys to Liverpool PLUS the extra commuter capacity unlocked on lines that have skeletal commuter services should be clear.

Ultimately, the tunnel to the East also needs doing, but that will require larger collaboration across the North. I should imagine Liverpool are hoping that the Western connection being done filters development in their direction and that the Pennines will continue to be a division.

 

[chris2]

Had a listen to the interview that kicked this off, I thought it was fine. True, in relation to the new railway, the soundbite talked about journey time, but it being an enabler of growth across the region was also stated, which more loosely relates to the capacity argument. Also I thought it was good that it was mentioned that the line has the support of all local authorities along the line of route - a big difference from HS2 and says a lot in itself.

Additionally, capacity was absolutely front and centre in Ruth Cadbury’s defence of why we’re still building HS2, and she went as far as to say that she hopes an alternative to the line to Manchester comes forward for precisely the reasons of long term capacity.

The problems are well stated - North/South capacity, East/West capacity, unreliability, infrequency, widening economic gap between North and London/SE. Any sufficient answer to these problems will take the form of a long-term, multi-pronged strategy, of which this railway will just be a part of.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Had a listen to the interview that kicked this off, I thought it was fine. True, in relation to the new railway, the soundbite talked about journey time, but it being an enabler of growth across the region was also stated, which more loosely relates to the capacity argument.

All hopes about growth can be subject to world events that may well happen in the future.

 

[Topological]

All hopes about growth can be subject to world events that may well happen in the future.

One of the rationales for seeking growth is to provide resilience to world events.

However, you do highlight how important it is to see ourselves in a global context and it is in that context that we need to connect globally as best we can (i.e. a fast line from Liverpool to Manchester Airport)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I’m glad I wasn’t the only one who felt disappointment (and anger) at that blatant lie. The politicians are trying to prepare us all for a very poor 30-minute city-to-city time over a brand new railway by keeping quiet about timings that have already been within spitting distance of 30 minutes on a slightly-modernised 200-year-old line.

The new line appears to have stations at Manchester Airport and "Liverpool Gateway" wherever that turns out to be, plus Warrington BQ Low Level.
So 3 stops will mean little improvement on the Chat Moss times, though capacity will be new.

I am also surprised the route development is still so vague.
The HS2 section (Millington-Piccadilly, mostly in tunnel) will be reasonably developed (it's in the Phase 2 bill after all).
But a new section at the Piccadilly end is needed for the underground station, and there is no agreed route from Millington to Liverpool, bar vague references to the Fiddler's Ferry line.
A reminder that the old Timperley-Warrington-Ditton line was essentially a low grade freight line with a severe dog's leg through Warrington and hemmed in by industrial and residential growth.
It's also mostly in Cheshire, while the sponsors are "foreign" Metro Mayors.
The new line must be a decade behind HS2 Phase 2 in planning terms.
There's also the unknown method of reaching Yorkshire from this line, if the simple reversal at Piccadilly proposed by HS2 is not adopted..

 

[The Ham]

The two northern mayors of the two involved conurbations see improvements to bus travel as their first main priority as that would benefit the far greater number of their residents.

The thing is, there's a need to have a mix of options for non car travel to maximise the benefits (which includes easing congestion for those who carry on driving).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The thing is, there's a need to have a mix of options for non car travel to maximise the benefits (which includes easing congestion for those who carry on driving).

Many car drivers set off from home to work with no nearby railway station at either end of the journey. Does that aspiration appeal to car drivers with all the extra travel to and from railway stations and if put in a referendum to the workers in car plants, how do you think the result of such a referendum might reveal? A colleague who occasionally frequents the Skyscraper City Manchester Transport website once deliberately caused much annoyance by referring to the "get them out of the cars" brigade aspiration by then suggesting their next step would be to get people out of privately owned dwellings and into local authority social housing.

 

[Topological]

Many car drivers set off from home to work with no nearby railway station at either end of the journey. Does that aspiration appeal to car drivers with all the extra travel to and from railway stations and if put in a referendum to the workers in car plants, how do you think the result of such a referendum might reveal? A colleague who occasionally frequents the Skyscraper City Manchester Transport website once deliberately caused much annoyance by referring to the "get them out of the cars" brigade aspiration by then suggesting their next step would be to get people out of privately owned dwellings and into local authority social housing.

Many do, but equally many do not.

When people say reduce car use by 30% (for example), they do not assume an equal reduction across all user groups. They mean reduce the average. There will always be some for whom there is no way to reduce car usage.

At the other end of the scale are the many who live in densely populated areas and travel to other densely populated areas. These groups can be served by nodes and therefore the rail option works (as do other distance appropriate measures, such as Metrolink in Manchester).

Then there are those who live in sparsely populated areas but travel to densely populated areas. For these people railheading works. This is why Stockport has such a big demand to London (and Wilmslow / Macclesfield likewise).

Whilst I appreciate you are probably just trying to be obtuse, I think it is clear no one would expect the example traveller you give to switch mode.

As for having a referendum in a car plant - that is not how anyone makes policy. Otherwise we might get a government putting large tarrifs on imports...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Will there be much new rail carriage building and greatly increased timetable amendments to carry all these currently car users under the currently discussed aspiration? Can someone far more knowledgeable in rail matters than I direct me to the Government website where such matters are discussed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2025 ==

As for having a referendum in a car plant - that is not how anyone makes policy. Otherwise we might get a government putting large tariffs on imports...

Whyever not. I am sure that the Trades Unions will see such an idea as being currently discussed being a direct attack upon the employment prospects of their workers.

 

[The Planner]

Will there be much new rail carriage building and greatly increased timetable amendments to carry all these currently car users under the currently discussed aspiration? Can someone far more knowledgeable in rail matters than I direct me to the Government website where such matters are discussed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2025 ==


Whyever not. I am sure that the Trades Unions will see such an idea as being currently discussed being a direct attack upon the employment prospects of their workers.

None of that will exist yet, as I suspect you very well know. Any timetabling and assumptions on rolling stock will sit under whatever GBR becomes.

 

[WAO]

Manchester is subject to a lot of constraints because of the rail infrastructure. Meanwhile, the city is developing at a rapid pace.

The benefit of faster journeys to Liverpool PLUS the extra commuter capacity unlocked on lines that have skeletal commuter services should be clear.

Ultimately, the tunnel to the East also needs doing, but that will require larger collaboration across the North. I should imagine Liverpool are hoping that the Western connection being done filters development in their direction and that the Pennines will continue to be a division.

I would be more impressed if Manchester had made more effort to make the best of its existing heavy rail rail assets, instead of proposing to spend other people's money on NPR crayoning.

Where is the electrification (with longer consists), to at least some of; Buxton, New Mills, Rochdale, Sheffield, the CLC route and even Southport? Even the existing L&M to Liverpool would benefit from four tracking from Roby Jn, if the Queens Drive slip roads were rebuilt. Unfortunately, these undramatic, un-newsworthy schemes would not cost enough!


There are already three Liverpool - Manchester direct routes, only one of which is anywhere near being properly used.

WAO

 

[Topological]

Will there be much new rail carriage building and greatly increased timetable amendments to carry all these currently car users under the currently discussed aspiration? Can someone far more knowledgeable in rail matters than I direct me to the Government website where such matters are discussed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2025 ==


Whyever not. I am sure that the Trades Unions will see such an idea as being currently discussed being a direct attack upon the employment prospects of their workers.

I hate to break it to you, but most cars are imported now.

I think that the Unions are much more interested in ensuring that the few manufacturers who remain are able to compete with imports, than the shrinkage of the overall market by a few cars in the Liverpool-Manchester region.

I assume you believe there are unions in the Steel and Concrete industries rejoicing at the extra demand for their products. Particularly "British Steel" who have been having quite a tough time recently.

As to the manufacture of new carriages, there is still a shakedown on the HS2 contract now that half of that is not being built. I doubt there are any plans for specific Liverpool to Manchester line stock at this stage.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2025 ==

I would be more impressed if Manchester had made more effort to make the best of its existing heavy rail rail assets, instead of proposing to spend other people's money on NPR crayoning.

Where is the electrification (with longer consists), to at least some of; Buxton, New Mills, Rochdale, Sheffield, the CLC route and even Southport? Even the existing L&M to Liverpool would benefit from four tracking from Roby Jn, if the Queens Drive slip roads were rebuilt. Unfortunately, these undramatic, un-newsworthy schemes would not cost enough!


There are already three Liverpool - Manchester direct routes, only one of which is anywhere near being properly used.

WAO

Which line do you believe can handle the two flows?

I assume you are proposing a Castlefield bypass? I am not convinced that will end up all that much cheaper. It will certainly have a longer journey time from Liverpool to the airport than the proposed route of the Manchester-Liverpool new line. Indeed you would need a new line from Manchester Airport to Central Manchester to even have a chance of competing.

The only way in which the current infrastructure works is if you use Victoria and ignore the airport. As mentioned earlier, airport connectivity is an essential part of global connectivity. As it stands Manchester has global connectivity, but Liverpool has little beyond Europe.

 

[Grimsby town]

I would be more impressed if Manchester had made more effort to make the best of its existing heavy rail rail assets, instead of proposing to spend other people's money on NPR crayoning.

Where is the electrification (with longer consists), to at least some of; Buxton, New Mills, Rochdale, Sheffield, the CLC route and even Southport? Even the existing L&M to Liverpool would benefit from four tracking from Roby Jn, if the Queens Drive slip roads were rebuilt. Unfortunately, these undramatic, un-newsworthy schemes would not cost enough!


There are already three Liverpool - Manchester direct routes, only one of which is anywhere near being properly used.

WAO

Is there not effort being made to make the most of GMs railways already? Planned or recently completed projects include:

• 3rd Platform at Salford Crescent
• Upgrades at Salford Central
• New station at Golborne
• Platform extensions on the airport line and Chat Moss
• Remodeling of Oxford Road
• Turn back loops at Victoria
• Possible electrification of the CLC and Rochdale lines

I've probably missed some schemes off but all of those will be finished by time any new route is opened. The new line is long term but will require years of planning and construction, so needs to be considered before the easier interventions you suggest.

 

[urbophile]

But.. stations just outside centres of cities - formerly peripheral working places with big factories - have also declined or gone, as the periphery just isn't concentrated any more: stations like Attercliffe Road, Brightside (Sheffield) - both gone, or Ardwick (11 trains a week - Sugar Loaf halt had more passengers) and Miles Platting (gone)..

True. But those areas in many cities now are totally changed. Liverpool's Baltic Triangle area is now alive with bars, restaurants and music venues, as well as rapid expanding as a residential area. Many years ago it was largely warehouses, or tightly-packed inner city housing from which most people would walk, or take the tram, to work. The station serving it closed over 100 years ago for that reason; work on a new station on the site is shortly to begin. It will serve a completely different catchment, and offer a much more frequent service. The ones you mention could never provide a usefully frequent service because they were subservient to mainline express traffic. Without a segregated Metro line inner-city stations are not going to succeed.

 

[The Planner]

There are already three Liverpool - Manchester direct routes, only one of which is anywhere near being properly used.

WAO

Three? Are you counting Headbolt Lane in this? That isn't direct at all.

 

[Nottingham59]

Three? Are you counting Headbolt Lane in this? That isn't direct at all.

35 miles to Victoria via Headbolt and Wigan, compared to 30 miles as the crow flies.
But 40 miles to HS2 Piccadilly via Fiddlers Ferry and Manchester Airport.