The jump from class 423s to 465s and later 707s?

[35B]

I suppose the 465 would be a 4NSE standing for "Networker, South East". I wonder why the Class 450 got one of these "old" designations of 4DES even though it's from 2003.

Because someone was joking - the SR style designations ended when sliding doors came in.

 

[topydre]

I just about remember the changeover. I and my dad would often travel from Strood to London Bridge and thence on the Northern Line to visit my grandparents. The main difference I noticed (as a young child) was that the networkers had sliding doors! You press a button and the door opens! Wow!

I remember the EPBs quite fondly. My Dad, after years of commuting, still hates them.

Strange to think that the networkers themselves are going soon.

 

[frankmoh]

I just about remember the changeover. I and my dad would often travel from Strood to London Bridge and thence on the Northern Line to visit my grandparents. The main difference I noticed (as a young child) was that the networkers had sliding doors! You press a button and the door opens! Wow!

I remember the EPBs quite fondly. My Dad, after years of commuting, still hates them.

Strange to think that the networkers themselves are going soon.

Southeastern certainly wants them gone, but their big order for new trains hasn't got a company to make them yet. All they can do now is slowly remove the 465/9s and 466s from service whilst the /0s and /1s soldier on.

 

[coppercapped]

Because someone was joking - the SR style designations ended when sliding doors came in.

I think you will find that the change came some time later, the Alstom built Class 458 sliding door units were also known as 4JOPs on introduction in 1999/2000.

 

[43096]

Because someone was joking - the SR style designations ended when sliding doors came in.

The 458s when built were known as 4-JOP (Juniper Outer-suburban Porterbrook), then 5-JUP when converted to 458/5 and are now 4-JUP for the 458/4 conversions. Those designations are official enough to be carried on the car data panels.

 

[35B]

I think you will find that the change came some time later, the Alstom built Class 458 sliding door units were also known as 4JOPs on introduction in 1999/2000.

So what was the 455 designation?

 

[frankmoh]

They did kind of box themselves in here with this one. I wonder why the SE Networkers didn't get 460 and 461 though as opposed to 465 and 466. Makes me wonder what the 467 Super Networker will look like.

 

[D365]

View attachment 182697
They did kind of box themselves in here with this one. I wonder why the SE Networkers didn't get 460 and 461 though as opposed to 465 and 466. Makes me wonder what the 467 Super Networker will look like.

What is a ”Class 467”?

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder why the SE Networkers didn't get 460 and 461 though as opposed to 465 and 466.

They followed the pattern of 405 / 415 / 445 / 455 for 4 car suburban units and 416 / 456 for 2 car suburban units. 450s (or maybe the 458s) should really be 453s, as outer suburban 4 coach units.

 

[frankmoh]

What is a ”Class 467”?

This is my own personal designation for whatever that big train order from Southeastern is going to be, seeing as it will replace all the Networkers and do the same jobs as it.

The "real" Super Networker would be the Class 341, which was never built but went on to inspire the Elizabeth Line's Class 345.

 

[The exile]

So what was the 455 designation?

4-PER, I believe (though I can't remember where I've got it from and as a clear derivation from the 4-PEP, it may actually have been the code for the 508s)

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They followed the pattern of 405 / 415 / 445 / 455 for 4 car suburban units and 416 / 456 for 2 car suburban units. 450s (or maybe the 458s) should really be 453s, as outer suburban 4 coach units.

Those being because the first digit of the SR-style unit number denoted the type of unit. 1xxx being mainline express, 2xxx buffet units, 3xxx 4-car outer suburban and so-on. At some point in the early 1980s (I think) - possibly when units went on to tops, but coinciding with the refurbishment of the CEPS - the class number was to become an integral part of the unit number and as the system only allowed for 6 digits, the final digit of the class number had to match the first of the SR-style system. This required (amongst other things) a quick reclassification of BEPs, BIGs and REPs from 410, 420 and 430 to 412, 422 and 432 respectively as it was felt you couldn't start the SR system number with "0". By the time 450s came along, 6 figure unit numbers were the norm (and computing power that much greater) so the question didn't arise. As you say - the logic of the system went to pot after the 442s - especially in the case of the 458s which by the traditional SR logic would be unpowered trailer sets.

 

[norbitonflyer]

As you say - the logic of the system went to pot after the 442s - especially in the case of the 458s which by the traditional SR logic would be unpowered trailer sets.

Given their tendency to break down in the early days, they might as well have been.

And logically the Desiros should have been 4x2 and 4x3 (x being either 5, 6, or 7), rather than 444 and 450

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4-PER, I believe (though I can't remember where I've got it from and as a clear derivation from the 4-PEP, it may actually have been the code for the 508s)

I thought PER was the original designation of the PEP prototypes (R for rheostatic)

Some wag suggested 4NOB (no bicycles) for the 508s, as the ban on taking cycles on peak hour services started because they had no guard's vans

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I suppose the 465 would be a 4NSE standing for "Networker, South East". I wonder why the Class 450 got one of these "old" designations of 4DES even though it's from 2003.

4NET perhaps? 4GTO? Makes you wonder what the other unbuilt Networkers would have been designated.

 

[frankmoh]

4NET perhaps? 4GTO? Makes you wonder what the other unbuilt Networkers would have been designated.

What would the GTO stand for then?

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So what was the 455 designation?

4HIT was proposed but never used.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

What would the GTO stand for then?

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4HIT was proposed but never used.

Gate turn-off, it’s the inverter used that makes that Networker sound

 

[43096]

The "real" Super Networker would be the Class 341, which was never built but went on to inspire the Elizabeth Line's Class 345.

That’s not the case. The 345 is an Aventra, not an “inspiration” from an unbuilt Networker version.

 

[frankmoh]

Gate turn-off, it’s the inverter used that makes that Networker sound

Ah, but which one? I'd guess the MetCam motors given how the only other trains with a similar noise are the 365s (RIP) and the 1996 Stock which don't really sound as similar as some make it out to be. The refurbished Hitachi motors just kind of sound like every other EMU these days aside from the "UFO wobble" of Desiro Citys.

 

[wimbledonpete]

I know it crops up on these forums a bit but Old, Dirty and Late is a perfect illustration of the EPB to Networker transition time. I worked at Southeastern at the time and knew a lot of the people shown - it illustrates some of the major problems back then. I watch it now with a real sense of nostalgia but it wasn't the greatest time to live through, service-wise. But standing at London Bridge in the rush hour watching (on the South Eastern) exclusively slam door trains clattering in and out every few seconds was impressive.

 

[frankmoh]

I know it crops up on these forums a bit but Old, Dirty and Late is a perfect illustration of the EPB to Networker transition time. I worked at Southeastern at the time and knew a lot of the people shown - it illustrates some of the major problems back then. I watch it now with a real sense of nostalgia but it wasn't the greatest time to live through, service-wise. But standing at London Bridge in the rush hour watching (on the South Eastern) exclusively slam door trains clattering in and out every few seconds was impressive.

Saw on the video and a few others from the 90s that some passengers would rather sit in the brake van/guard's area than inside the normal passenger sections. Was this common back then or was it just something they managed to catch on film?

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Another thing to add, I never see anyone use the exits up the stairs at Charing Cross now, everyone (including me) just go towards the ticket barriers along the platform.

 

[wimbledonpete]

Saw on the video and a few others from the 90s that some passengers would rather sit in the brake van/guard's area than inside the normal passenger sections. Was this common back then or was it just something they managed to catch on film?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2025 ==

Another thing to add, I never see anyone use the exits up the stairs at Charing Cross now, everyone (including me) just go towards the ticket barriers along the platform.

I think if the trains were full then people would enter one of the unused guard's areas, or maybe they just liked being in there! If something's unlocked, someone will go in there! I remember at one point you could enter the little corridor? passage? just behind the cab of the 455s. Only space for about 8 or 10 people standing but I did that a few times jumping on at Waterloo, before they stopped it. It had fully opening windows so was a bit cooler in summer!

 

[nw1]

They followed the pattern of 405 / 415 / 445 / 455 for 4 car suburban units and 416 / 456 for 2 car suburban units. 450s (or maybe the 458s) should really be 453s, as outer suburban 4 coach units.

Indeed, the 465 and 466 were the last to have the standard designation.

The second digit appears to be generation based (though there are some anomalies, e.g. 442s were introduced after 455s).

So the 458s, being unrelated to either 455s or Networkers, would probably have been 473 (next generation after Networkers), while the Desiros would have been the next generation again, so would be 48x. In other words, 444s would have been 482 and the 450s, 483. (But of course, under privatisation we've lost the concept of a standard Southern EMU fleet, with each former division going off and doing its own thing, so things would rapidly start becoming complicated).

Interestingly though, the proposed main-line Networker was 471, and not 461 - even though 461 would make a lot of sense given it was still the Networker family.

 

[Dr_Paul]

The unrefurbished 4EPBs (SR-design class 415/1) were reformed so that some units had no compartment trailers, and some had two - the latter were used on peak hour services only (when the chances of being alone in a compartment were minimal), and renumbered into a 55xx series, with the compartments marked with a red line at cantrail level. 32 units were so treated - the last was withdrawn in 1991. The BR-design 4EPBs (class 415/2) were built with both trailers having some compartments, but all had been refurbished before 1988

With 4SUBs, they were usually three saloon carriages and one compartment trailer, but I'm sure that a few were all compartment carriages. Can anyone confirm this? Were the 4SUBs reformed in order to get rid of compartment carriages, or had they been withdrawn by the time this happened with 4EPBs?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 19:49 ==

Saw on the video and a few others from the 90s that some passengers would rather sit in the brake van/guard's area than inside the normal passenger sections. Was this common back then or was it just something they managed to catch on film?

I can't recall the guard's compartment being used on 4SUBs and 4EPBs on Waterloo services, although they may well have been without my noticing it. On the other hand, I travelled several times from Waterloo on crowded 4CIGs and 4VEPs in the guard's compartment. The compartment in a 4VEP was very big. I don't recall there being any parcels or other goods in them; presumably this is why they were converted into a saloon, increasing the seating capacity by eight per unit.

 

[sh24]

4SUB were long gone when the EPB's were reformed.

While the slammers have many nostalgic memories I find the most recent trains - Electrostars and Desiros - a huge improvement in almost every way. The Networkers on the other hand, were a nice idea poorly executed.

 

[JonathanH]

The compartment in a 4VEP was very big. I don't recall there being any parcels or other goods in them; presumably this is why they were converted into a saloon, increasing the seating capacity by eight per unit.

There were 18, rather than 8, additional seats in VEP luggage area conversion.

A bench for four across the wall adjoining the luggage compartment, a standard 2+3 back to back, and 2+2 across the gangway end.

The Networkers on the other hand, were a nice idea poorly executed.

That is very tough on the Networker, and judging them on their use and state today, rather than what they were when introduced. They could have been built with standback areas around the door, but the design was to maximise seats, 344 seats in a four car unit, with a toilet.

Thinking now is to provide fewer seats and more standing space, but that wasn't the thinking in the early 1990s.

 

[181]

Were the 4SUBs reformed in order to get rid of compartment carriages, or had they been withdrawn by the time this happened with 4EPBs?

4SUB were long gone when the EPB's were reformed.

According to The '4-Sub' Story (Bryan Rayner and David Brown, 1983), some 4-SUBs were reformed without compartment carriages after withdrawals following service cuts in 1976 freed up saloon carriages, and the same was done with most of the surviving units following further withdrawals after the introduction of 508s in 1981. But an administrative error meant that a compartment trailer was retained in unit 4732, which became the green-painted 'celebrity' unit and was later preserved.

 

[wimbledonpete]

With 4SUBs, they were usually three saloon carriages and one compartment trailer, but I'm sure that a few were all compartment carriages. Can anyone confirm this? Were the 4SUBs reformed in order to get rid of compartment carriages, or had they been withdrawn by the time this happened with 4EPBs?

Yes, there were lots of all-compartment SUBs, but they'd all gone by the early 70s. The end compartment as I remember was always Ladies Only.

 

[nw1]

View attachment 182697
They did kind of box themselves in here with this one. I wonder why the SE Networkers didn't get 460 and 461 though as opposed to 465 and 466. Makes me wonder what the 467 Super Networker will look like.

So the 442 is in the "1970s design" category even though they were introduced in the 1980s. I guess this is because they are Mk3-derived?

Whatever, it's certainly more logical than the random-number generator apparently used to assign classes to units these days. It started well with the 700 and then went a bit strange. The 80x inter-city units are more logically assigned, though.
The AC EMU 3xx series was similarly logical (i.e. sequential) right up to the 323 (funnily enough the same kind of era) then it went a bit awry. AFAIK there was no class 324, 326, 327, 328, 329 or 330.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Sunday at 09:53 ==

I know it crops up on these forums a bit but Old, Dirty and Late is a perfect illustration of the EPB to Networker transition time. I worked at Southeastern at the time and knew a lot of the people shown - it illustrates some of the major problems back then. I watch it now with a real sense of nostalgia but it wasn't the greatest time to live through, service-wise. But standing at London Bridge in the rush hour watching (on the South Eastern) exclusively slam door trains clattering in and out every few seconds was impressive.

A little bit earlier but I did do that once, on Waterloo East, during the rush-hour in August 1987.
I'd been to Tonbridge for the day to observe "South Eastern" mainline operations (and rack up a few CEPs - the boat trains passed through Tonbridge as well as the regular services) but decided to come back into London for the peak deliberately to see this.

It was EPB after EPB after EPB. Many ten-coach EPBs (4+4+2) too, which were a complete novelty to me having only experienced the South Western and the Central up to this point.

I realise I would have seen the Cannon Street contingent had I chosen London Bridge instead, but as I lived in South Western land I think I wanted to stay there as late as possible and then make a quick exit via Waterloo main when I had to go home.

This was before the 66-minute hour though, everything in the peak was on a 20-minute repeating clockface pattern, if I remember right.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Yes, there were lots of all-compartment SUBs, but they'd all gone by the early 70s. The end compartment as I remember was always Ladies Only.

The SUBs were always a mixture - inevitable given their origins with many converted from hauled stock from all three pre-grouping companies. The all steel cars started to appear in the 1940s, initially inserted into older 3SUBs to make 4SUBs, but later reformed into complete all steel units.
The first all steel units, (the Queen of Shebas" were still all-compartment (nine in the motor coaches, 11 in the trailers!)
The last pre war cars had gone by 1970, but mix and match continued with some units having compartment trailers, some open, some one of each, some semi-open coaches (two saloons separated by a solid partition) some with former composite coaches (one fewer compartment due to the greater legroom in the former first class compartments)

 

[Dr_Paul]

There were 18, rather than 8, additional seats in VEP luggage area conversion. A bench for four across the wall adjoining the luggage compartment, a standard 2+3 back to back, and 2+2 across the gangway end.

Thanks for the correction. I should not rely upon my memory alone, which can be unreliable. Looking at the various photographs of 4VEPs on the Internet, it's come back to me what the conversions were like, with one additional door on each side, one for each bay.