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First Transpennine Express

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northwichcat

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The 51 185s could maybe operate TP North, and the Turbostar routes from New Street? Cascading the 170s to maybe Scotrail, and then the 38 170s (TPE and XC) could go to Northern, to displace sufficient 158s to EMT for TP South.

By rough calculation the hourly pattern on the 4 North TPE routes requires 25 units. This excludes any off-pattern services e.g. the evening Hull-Huddersfield service and any 6 car operation.

CrossCountry have 29 170s

29+25=54

I'll throw a different idea in to the mix.

North TPE goes to East Coast and Newcastle/Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport services get 5/6 car bi-mode IEP. Liverpool to Scarborough and Manchester to Hull gets 6 car 185 operation which will use around half of the 185s. The rest of the 185s could go to York to Blackpool and Calder Vale.
 
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tbtc

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By rough calculation the hourly pattern on the 4 North TPE routes requires 25 units. This excludes any off-pattern services e.g. the evening Hull-Huddersfield service and any 6 car operation.

CrossCountry have 29 170s

29+25=54

I'll throw a different idea in to the mix.

North TPE goes to East Coast and Newcastle/Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport services get 5/6 car bi-mode IEP. Liverpool to Scarborough and Manchester to Hull gets 6 car 185 operation which will use around half of the 185s. The rest of the 185s could go to York to Blackpool and Calder Vale.

Twenty five units? Hmm...

  • Electrify the MML (including links to the ECML at Doncaster/Wakefield), freeing up twenty seven 222s.
  • EMT HSTs go to XC
  • Reconfigure the 222s into five/six coach rakes (currently 4/5/7)
  • With new EMUs on the MML, you can then use the 222s on TPE North - they've got the capacity, they've got the speed, its basically the right number needed
  • With TPE North part of the ECML franchise you then have the option of using 222s on lighter loaded London services (e.g. early morning/ late night)

Worth examining?
 

IanXC

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By rough calculation the hourly pattern on the 4 North TPE routes requires 25 units. This excludes any off-pattern services e.g. the evening Hull-Huddersfield service and any 6 car operation.

CrossCountry have 29 170s

29+25=54

Hmm

Thinking a bit further, with mini pendos on Birmingham and Manchester to Scotland I'd like to see the 21 Virgin 221s go to XC-EC-TP North. If such a "super franchise" had:

51 185
34 220
44 221
19 HSTs/IEP
31 91+mk4 sets

I think that would give a good improvement in capacity and flexibility. On the ECML some lighter loaded services could be portion working eg 2x 221 London to Hull/Harrogate, and other services, particularly on XC could be strengthened.
 

northwichcat

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[*]Reconfigure the 222s into five/six coach rakes (currently 4/5/7)

[*]With new EMUs on the MML, you can then use the 222s on TPE North - they've got the capacity, they've got the speed, its basically the right number needed

[*]With TPE North part of the ECML franchise you then have the option of using 222s on lighter loaded London services (e.g. early morning/ late night)

One point worth remembering is TPE won't sell as many FC tickets as London bound trains, so if 222s were used on TPE I'd suggest one of the driving cars contains FC accommodation and all the rest contain standard.
 

tbtc

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One point worth remembering is TPE won't sell as many FC tickets as London bound trains, so if 222s were used on TPE I'd suggest one of the driving cars contains FC accommodation and all the rest contain standard.

True. The "composite" coach would need to be "all standard", but that could be done relatively easy (there's only a small "partition" between the sections)
 

danfitz123

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If East Coast were to take over the First TPE North services, would there be any change to the service provision to Manchester Airport railway station, particularly in relation to new services from the existing East Coast timetable being extended there.

LOL Then it wouldn't be called east coast. It would be called "East coast and a bit of the pennines". :lol:
 

ainsworth74

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Forgive me for perhaps being somewhat naive but why are we talking about putting TPE into XC or EC or anywhere else for that matter? Now I'm in favor of putting the Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh route into either ICWC or XC (though I'd lean towards the WC franchise) but why do North TPE and South TPE need to be absorbed into another franchise? It works well as it is now so what benifits would be there be by combining the franchise?
 

northwichcat

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Forgive me for perhaps being somewhat naive but why are we talking about putting TPE into XC or EC or anywhere else for that matter? Now I'm in favor of putting the Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh route into either ICWC or XC (though I'd lean towards the WC franchise) but why do North TPE and South TPE need to be absorbed into another franchise? It works well as it is now so what benifits would be there be by combining the franchise?

You've obviously not seen the threads relating to the number of franchises set to be reduced due to the franchise tendering being costly. The suggested expanded franchises are:

Northern + TPE North West
EMT + Man Airport to Cleethorphes
West Coast + LM electric routes + Man Airport to Scotland
Chiltern + LM diesel routes
TPE North + CrossCountry or/and East Coast
 

sulli_os

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I think that the Man Airport - Cleethorpes would sit better as part of the East Midlands franchise. I also suspect it would be looked at favourably by the DfT etc, as it would reduce the number of different TOCs operating in/out of stations such as Sheffield and Doncaster.

This in mind, how about:
* EMT + Man Airport - Cleethorpes + Northern services to/from Lincoln and Nottingham
* TPE North + Other Northern
 

MCR247

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You've obviously not seen the threads relating to the number of franchises set to be reduced due to the franchise tendering being costly. The suggested expanded franchises are:

Northern + TPE North West
EMT + Man Airport to Cleethorphes
West Coast + LM electric routes + Man Airport to Scotland
Chiltern + LM diesel routes
TPE North + CrossCountry or/and East Coast

By splitting up 185s you'd be getter worse fleet usage and less flexibility
 

tbtc

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By splitting up 185s you'd be getter worse fleet usage and less flexibility

True, but there will always be examples of this.

To me this is more of a problem with "small" fleet sizes than a problem with reorganising franchise boundaries.
 

MCR247

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But 185s are overcrowded. If I suggested "lets purposely take 185146 out of service" I would get shot down in flames! So why then get worse fleet usage, and then less flexible diagrams etc?!?!
 

krisk

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185s are good on say the Blackpool run. But crossing the pennines or running to Scotland they are the wrong type of unit. A voyager style/length of train would be more suited for Liverpool - Leeds - NE, Sheffield/Cleethorpes and the EMT Liverpool - Norwich which would be more suited to XC maybe (though not whilst under Arrivas stewardship)
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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To me this is more of a problem with "small" fleet sizes than a problem with reorganising franchise boundaries.

It would be better if all the Class 185 fleet were to remain under the control of one TOC that could use all the existing maintenance facilities, as is the case at the present time. The Lancashire Triangle electrification will release more Class 185 units to run on some secondary, but still important traffic routes, where the track will not be adversely affected by the use of these units.
 

Failed Unit

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That is the problem with the 185s most of the routes they are likely to be used on are likely to be electrified at some point before the 185s are life expired. They will never be any use for the far north line, look how much money it took to get the Windermere branch upto standard!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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That is the problem with the 185s most of the routes they are likely to be used on are likely to be electrified at some point before the 185s are life expired. They will never be any use for the far north line, look how much money it took to get the Windermere branch upto standard!

Still no news of Trans-Pennine electrification, but perhaps any spared from existing services could be used in a new franchaise in this area could run on the Caldervale line services, giving Bradford sight of these units.
 

northwichcat

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It would be better if all the Class 185 fleet were to remain under the control of one TOC that could use all the existing maintenance facilities, as is the case at the present time.

The other option is two operators sharing a fleet such as the 175s and 350s in the past, opposed to being allocated certain units.

The Lancashire Triangle electrification will release more Class 185 units to run on some secondary, but still important traffic routes, where the track will not be adversely affected by the use of these units.

I just don't understand why a lot of people think that 185s will be able to move on to other routes after electrification.

Manchester Airport to Scotland will go via Wigan and there is supposed to be a service replacing it on the Bolton corridor to interwork with the Barrow service. Philip Hammond has stated the diversion via Wigan will be permanent to not have too many short distance passengers overcrowding the Scottish service.

So, effectively after the diversion of Man Airport to Scotland we'll see the pre-Dec 07 timetable and diagramming on TPE.

Then after Blackpool electrification, if TPE hasn't been reorganised by then, I imagine we'll see more 6 car operation on North TPE.

Barrow and Windermere aren't confirmed as being electrified.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That is the problem with the 185s most of the routes they are likely to be used on are likely to be electrified at some point before the 185s are life expired. They will never be any use for the far north line, look how much money it took to get the Windermere branch upto standard!

They also have a purpose built depot and maintenance facility at Ardwick, Manchester so IF all existing TPE are electrified (I doubt Doncaster-Cleethorphes will be electrified) I think it would make sense to cascade them down to other North West routes that involve steep gradients e.g. York-Blackpool and Buxton-Manchester, in particular.
 

Failed Unit

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I agree the Calder Valley would be a good place for the 185s IF north transpennie ever get electrified. Maybe then do Scarborough - Leeds - Bradford - Manchester victoria to keep Scarborough linked with Manchester.

Some branches I suspect will see changes, Windermere will either be electrified or revert to just an Oxenholme shuttle.

I would not be surprised to see Doncaster - Cleethorpes electrified. It is one of the busiest frieght routes in the Uk for the majority of it, however I suspect the 185s may be end of life by then. Nottingham - Liverpool IMHO now has better trains than the 185s.
 

tbtc

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I just don't understand why a lot of people think that 185s will be able to move on to other routes after electrification

Manchester Airport - Blackpool will obviously go EMU
Manchester Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh will be replaced by EMUs running via Wigan, plus alternative EMU services from Manchester to Preston via Bolton

They may keep a few in the north west for Manchester Airport - Barrow, but that may be cut (e.g. Northern extend their Carlisle - Barrow services to Lancaster?)

If TPE is split up (Northern get the "North" bit, EMT get the "South" bit, the "West" bit becomes EMUs, then how about the 185s run the Blackpool - Leeds/York/Scarborough service (depending on what is agreed on), and EMT get the three coach 158s (which are used on the Blackpool - York service), which fit in with the (two coach) 158s that EMT already use on the Hope Valley line?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It would be better if all the Class 185 fleet were to remain under the control of one TOC that could use all the existing maintenance facilities

True, but I wonder how you'd feel if someone suggested that the fifteen 142s with ATW should move to "the North" because it would be better if all the Class 142 fleet were to be under the control of one TOC that could use all the existing maintenance facilities?
 

northwichcat

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plus alternative EMU services from Manchester to Preston via Bolton

In the first instance, it won't go to EMU as the electrification via Bolton won't have been started.

It also depends what ORR decide about Windermere services. Someone pointed out in another thread that it is still a franchise requirement for TPE to provide through services between Windermere and Manchester Airport, even though they don't have to be at the previous 2 hourly frequency.

EMT get the three coach 158s (which are used on the Blackpool - York service), which fit in with the (two coach) 158s that EMT already use on the Hope Valley line?

You mean that should be used on York-Blackpool. They can appear on practically any Northern 158 operated service especially Victoria to Leeds/Selby and the Grand Tour.
 

tbtc

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In the first instance, it won't go to EMU as the electrification via Bolton won't have been started

You make it sound like the Bolton line won't be electrified for a generation after the Chat Moss one is. Its not going to be *that* long, in the grand scheme of things.

You mean that should be used on York-Blackpool. They can appear on practically any Northern 158 operated service especially Victoria to Leeds/Selby and the Grand Tour

I've never seen a three coach one on the Sheffield - Leeds - Sheffield - Nottingham - Sheffield - Leeds - Sheffield circuit
 

northwichcat

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I would not be surprised to see Doncaster - Cleethorpes electrified. It is one of the busiest freight routes in the UK

The draft electrification RUS, when mentioned many possibilities for electrification including MML, North Wales coast, Hazel Grove to Blackpool etc. did suggest Manchester Airport to Doncaster could become an EMU service with Doncaster to Cleethorphes a separate DMU service. A similar suggestion was made for Manchester to Carmarthen/Milford Haven in that Crewe-Swansea could be electrified but towns west of Swansea would be served by separate DMU services.

The problem with freight is Network Rail and DfT have less control over it. Operators can stop freight services at short notice and be replaced by road, water or air transportation, whereas passenger trains have to operate at the frequency specified in the franchise agreement.
 

Failed Unit

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I was talking about 2025 for Doncaster - Cleethorpes which will be about the end of life for the 185s.

I would be interested to know about ridership on the Windermere branch, not just to Manchester but also to Lancaster and Preston. As you know I don't always agree with axing through services for operational conveince, but hey that is why we no longer have Lincoln - Birmingham.
 

northwichcat

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You make it sound like the Bolton line won't be electrified for a generation after the Chat Moss one is. Its not going to be *that* long, in the grand scheme of things.

I'm not saying it'll be that long but if new EMUs are ready soon after Manchester Airport-Scotland is electrified then for 2-3 years it'll put TPE in exactly the same position they were in before they were given the Scottish services to run.

I did start my reply with "In the first instance.." not "For my years to come..."

You previously said:
Manchester Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh will be replaced by EMUs running via Wigan, plus alternative EMU services from Manchester to Preston via Bolton

so missed out the intermediate stage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would be interested to know about ridership on the Windermere branch, not just to Manchester but also to Lancaster and Preston. As you know I don't always agree with axing through services for operational conveince, but hey that is why we no longer have Lincoln - Birmingham.

I don't know the exact figures are but I imagine they would be much higher in the Summer for obvious reasons. The problem with trains is if we have DMUs for a through service to Windermere in the Summer then it might as well stay as a through service all year, otherwise we'd have EMUs sat out of use in the Summer and DMUs sat out of use in the Winter.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I just don't understand why a lot of people think that 185s will be able to move on to other routes after electrification. They also have a purpose built depot and maintenance facility at Ardwick, Manchester.

You responded to my earlier thread without referring to my following thread in which I stated that post-electrification of the Lancashire Triangle, there would be Class 185 units free to run on the Caldervale line by a new franchaise ( because the Preston to Blackpool line should also be electrified by then).

I had already made the comment about a TOC keeping the fleet intact and using the existing maintainence facilities. I am aware that the Class 185 units will be life-expired eventually and would like them to remain in their current area where their hill-climbing ability is best utilised. What I cannot understand is the reticence to accept that Class 185 units are suited to the Caldervale line, which is in the geographical area where these units run at present with the same type of terrain.
 

Eng274

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I was talking about 2025 for Doncaster - Cleethorpes which will be about the end of life for the 185s.

I would be interested to know about ridership on the Windermere branch, not just to Manchester but also to Lancaster and Preston. As you know I don't always agree with axing through services for operational conveince, but hey that is why we no longer have Lincoln - Birmingham.

The 185s will only be 19 years old in 2025.. they will still have plenty of life left in them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
185s are good on say the Blackpool run. But crossing the pennines or running to Scotland they are the wrong type of unit. A voyager style/length of train would be more suited for Liverpool - Leeds - NE, Sheffield/Cleethorpes and the EMT Liverpool - Norwich which would be more suited to XC maybe (though not whilst under Arrivas stewardship)

They were specifically designed with high-powered engines for - crossing the Pennines.. Yes they are probably too small but as it is a well-documented consequence of DfT meddling that's not really a fault of the trains is it?
 
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northwichcat

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They were specifically designed with high-powered engines for - crossing the Pennines.. Yes they are probably too small but as it is a well-documented consequence of DfT meddling that's not really a fault of the trains is it?

The size plus the Desiro style interiors is what gets a lot of complaints. If they were 5 carriage (passenger numbers have grown a lot since 4 carriages per train was recommended) and had Meridian style seating and plenty of leg room and luggage space then I think there would be a lot less complaints.
 
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