Penalty Fare - sitting in First Class on a Standard Ticket

[jon0844]

I've seen people asked to leave who claimed they didn't notice, but I guess that if you argued there weren't any seats in standard then you've pretty much confessed.

I can't speak for all Southern trains, but I presume they're quite clearly marked as first class even if the 2+2 seating is the same as the rest of that carriage. On FCC, however, there were, and maybe still is, at least one 321 that for whatever reason (cleaning, repainting etc) have no stickers to show first class - and ONLY have the antimacassars on the seats. If you stepped in and someone was sitting on all the seats but one, which you sat down on without turning around, you could probably claim you didn't know - yet I doubt any RPI would accept it.

 

[causton]

I've seen people asked to leave who claimed they didn't notice, but I guess that if you argued there weren't any seats in standard then you've pretty much confessed.

I can't speak for all Southern trains, but I presume they're quite clearly marked as first class even if the 2+2 seating is the same as the rest of that carriage.

On the glass behind the first set of seats there is a sign facing towards the door about 20x10cm with a lengthy paragraph on the left about what will happen, and on the right of the sign a crossed out STD ticket (I see what they meant, but it could read "no tickets needed" ) - don't think there is a big 'FIRST CLASS' sign or anything though

 

[amcluesent]

EC is sometime over generous in offering upgrades or the chance to move. I've seen guards 'find' pax sitting in K after being moved on from M or L. It's patiently explained they still haven't shifted far enough...

 

[AlterEgo]

EC is sometime over generous in offering upgrades or the chance to move. I've seen guards 'find' pax sitting in K after being moved on from M or L. It's patiently explained they still haven't shifted far enough...

The same happens on Virgin on the Coventry-Birmingham corridor. Try sitting in coach G.

 

[222007]

Maybe i missed something or misunderstood penalty fare rules but do they not generally state a penalty fare will be £20 or twice the full standard single to the next station which the train stops at? so in the OP case if the next stop was for argument sake Preston park surely the penalty fare should have been £20 each? not the £136 charged? If the first stop was not victoria surely an appeal be made and the penalty fare would have been incorrectly charged?

 

[AlterEgo]

Maybe i missed something or misunderstood penalty fare rules but do they not generally state a penalty fare will be £20 or twice the full standard single to the next station which the train stops at? so in the OP case if the next stop was for argument sake Preston park surely the penalty fare should have been £20 each? not the £136 charged? If the first stop was not victoria surely an appeal be made and the penalty fare would have been incorrectly charged?

I think it depends on where they were challenged on the train. Doesn't it?

 

[222007]

AlterEgo possibly my TOC doesnt operate penalty fares so im not overly informed on them im happy to be corrected if this is the case

 

[tannedfrog]

you have unquestionably been treated fairly .

Really? There are plenty unanswered questions here. Including whether guardless trains are fair, as there is no way of purchasing an upgrade when on the train. And are the penalty fares rules adequately signposted at Brighton?

 

[amcluesent]

Sounds like a job for 'Mr Loophole'!

 

[Butts]

I wonder do the Guards or RPI's receive commission on Penalty Fares like they do with tickets and would this have any bearing on the decision to issue one ?

 

[spacehopper]

I wonder do the Guards or RPI's receive commission on Penalty Fares like they do with tickets and would this have any bearing on the decision to issue one ?

NO NO NO! Guards don't issue penalty fares! Only "authorised fare collectors" an RPI issue penalty fares. Nobody is on commission for penalty fares! No bearing on anything- were you sat in first on a standard class ticket- yes, that is all an RPI would need.

 

[tannedfrog]

Maybe not commission but they have some kind of targets relating to penalty fares I believe, having overheard them once on FCC

 

[AlterEgo]

Maybe not commission but they have some kind of targets relating to penalty fares I believe, having overheard them once on FCC

Why's that relevant? As long as the ones they give are administered properly, I don't see a problem.

 

[tgsh2011]

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of this, and yes the OP was in the wrong, this shows everything wrong in this country IMHO. Aggressive behaviour with unneeded threats about criminal records all because the OP sat in a 1st Class seat (and I use that term loosely considering it is the same as a standard seat). What ever happened to proportionality? Benefit of the doubt? Just because a TOC can prosecute does not mean it should. The merits of a case should be considered and, from a legal perspective, the TOC (as a prosecutor) has a legal obligation to comply with the Code for Crown Prosecutors; ie the evidential test AND the public interest test. It can't be in the public interest to prosecute and seek to criminalise people who (perhaps) have made an innocent mistake. Warn, advise, and if that does not work THEN CONSIDER prosecution. Just getting on and being aggressive making a "quick buck" for the TOC. Ask someone to vacate 1st Class or upgrade, not make £100s of pounds then be all "high and mighty" about it!

 

[Harlesden]

What has happened to society?
30-40 years ago, very few people would have even thought of deliberately trying to evade a fare.
30-40 years ago, a passenger with a Standard Class ticket would never have thought of sitting in First Class without authorisation.
Penalty Fares. Ticket gates. Both symptoms of a deteriorating standard of behaviour in society generally.
People have to be actually told - via notices - that they cannot actually travel without a ticket. But then there was a time when railway workers were regarded with respect and a degree of awe, and a time when snot nosed young boys addressed a policeman as "sir" and respected his authority.

 

[tannedfrog]

Why's that relevant.

Only because spacehopper said there is no commission

 

[GadgetMan]

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of this, and yes the OP was in the wrong, this shows everything wrong in this country IMHO. Aggressive behaviour with unneeded threats about criminal records all because the OP sat in a 1st Class seat (and I use that term loosely considering it is the same as a standard seat). What ever happened to proportionality? Benefit of the doubt? Just because a TOC can prosecute does not mean it should. The merits of a case should be considered and, from a legal perspective, the TOC (as a prosecutor) has a legal obligation to comply with the Code for Crown Prosecutors; ie the evidential test AND the public interest test. It can't be in the public interest to prosecute and seek to criminalise people who (perhaps) have made an innocent mistake. Warn, advise, and if that does not work THEN CONSIDER prosecution. Just getting on and being aggressive making a "quick buck" for the TOC. Ask someone to vacate 1st Class or upgrade, not make £100s of pounds then be all "high and mighty" about it!

Trouble is if the member of staff went through everyday and just said move or pay, there's no deterrent there. It makes a mockery of the system as unfortunately passengers notice there's no punishment so they may aswell try it on and they'll either get away with it or get asked to move.

How do you propose we stop people from trying it on? And don't forget if there's more than one passenger in First with standard tickets then you can't let one move and penalise the other just because you may recognise the other person as being a regular offender.

I will also add that in a lot of situations where passengers claim there are no seats, it's because they all seem to want to board the train at the same set of doors nearest the entrance to the platform, or they don't want to sit next to a stranger. I see it daily where the leading carriage of my train will be packed full and standing, middle carriage will be around 75% full, and third carriage will have 40+ seats empty.

 

[tannedfrog]

I will also add that in a lot of situations where passengers claim there are no seats, it's because they all seem to want to board the train at the same set of doors nearest the entrance to the platform, or they don't want to sit next to a stranger. I see it daily where the leading carriage of my train will be packed full and standing, middle carriage will be around 75% full, and third carriage will have 40+ seats empty.

Hopefully the guard will tell the people in the leading carriage that third carriage has seats. If there is a guard.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Really? There are plenty unanswered questions here. Including whether guardless trains are fair, as there is no way of purchasing an upgrade when on the train. And are the penalty fares rules adequately signposted at Brighton?

Are guard-less trains unfair? Well, imo, it is only unfair for the guards who used to work the train.

The lack of a guard on the train does not give the right to travel without a valid ticket to any person.

The lack of a guard on the train does not give the right to travel in accommodation that the passenger is not entitled to be in to any person.

The lack of a guard on the train does not change the ability to buy a ticket at the origin station (or not, as the case may be).

All stations within a Penalty Fares area must have displayed, at the entrance(s), sufficiant signs to indicate that Penalty Fares are in operation. Only passengers who start their journey at a Penalty fares station (i.e. those who have walked passed a Penalty Fares notice regardless of them having read it or not) can be given a Penalty Fare.
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Hopefully the guard will tell the people in the leading carriage that third carriage has seats. If there is a guard.

I have been on plenty of trains where the Train Manager/Guard has announced, on three or four occasions over three or four station calls, that seats are available and where they can be found. Generally speaking, it seems people would rather stand near the doorway where they boarded the train, than actually move to a coach where a seat is available.

 

[GadgetMan]

Hopefully the guard will tell the people in the leading carriage that third carriage has seats. If there is a guard.

Can't speak for others. But I include that in announcement and try to advise people when I check their tickets and their standing. A significant number seem happy to be stood in cramped conditions for some reason.

 

[All Line Rover]

I'd say you've been very lucky. Most TOCs are starting criminal proceedings for occupying seats in first class lately. The minimum you could have paid at the time was £36 each.

Really? Honestly? Criminal proceedings for sitting in First Class? Is a Penalty Fare not enough? (It's not as if I see them being issued often, either - here in London Midland land). I'd only imagine a TOC starting criminal proceedings if an individual repeatedly sits in First Class after having been warned.

 

[applepie]

Wow, it seems I have started a rather heated discussion Thank you all for your posts and advice.

In answer to the questions posed directly, I think Victoria was two stations ahead, but I was a bit distressed and "recovering" in the toilet, after the Penalty Fare, so I might've missed one or two stops in between. I don't think that's an important point, it's okay for the PF to use Brighton-Victoria.

My main problems were the staff member's manner (not letting me read the T & C's), and the lack of option to part pay, with the remainder later. I think both could be issues with the training of the staff member.

I've drafted a letter to the southern customer service, can I share it on here for your feedback?

Ask someone to vacate 1st Class or upgrade, not make £100s of pounds then be all "high and mighty" about it!

If only!

 

[Rover]

I feel sorry for you Applepie, yes you were in the wrong, but you don't come across as someone who regularly tries to defraud the railway, perhaps you were a little naive but you've learnt an expensive lesson. There was a time on the railway when you would have just been asked to leave and "don't do it again" - unfortunately today's railway is a hunting ground for revenue, the government requires it and the train companies attempt to provide it in many different ways - one of which is a zero tolerance, take no prisoners attitude when a passenger - sorry customer - strays from the straight and narrow, society has changed over the last few decades and I'm not sure it's for the better!

 

[amcluesent]

OP and companion should claim they were motioned to sit down by the RPI, who then issued a PF by means of entrapment to make quota. It would their word against the RPI.

 

[jon0844]

The 'never mind, don't do it again' approach just encourages people to try it on. If there are clear warning signs, that should be the polite bit. Ignore that and you're fair game.

Sent from my Commodore 64 using Tapatalk

 

[RPI]

Even if there is a guard on a train the guard is supposed to charge the full first class single in cases such as this and not even take into account the fare already paid so it's not just DOO trains.

 

[AlterEgo]

OP and companion should claim they were motioned to sit down by the RPI, who then issued a PF by means of entrapment to make quota. It would their word against the RPI.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of the term "entrapment". Entrapment is where an official encourages an otherwise innocent person into committing an offence. The offense had already been committed and it is certainly not entrapment!

 

[tannedfrog]

Even if there is a guard on a train the guard is supposed to charge the full first class single in cases such as this and not even take into account the fare already paid so it's not just DOO trains.

I guess that they would not double it though?

 

[Flamingo]

OP and companion should claim they were motioned to sit down by the RPI, who then issued a PF by means of entrapment to make quota. It would their word against the RPI.

Claim to who? The Daily Mail, Watchdog?

(And they would be told to Foxtrot Oscar.)

 

[amcluesent]

Claim to who?

The Magistrates when it goes to court!