Oyster at Stratford

[Brucey]

I tend to think of myself as knowing quite a bit about ticketing, but got into a right pickle at Stratford today. I wonder if anyone has done the same?

I was travelling from Harrow & Wealdstone to Canary Wharf. Touched on at Harrow's platform validators (as I was changing from paper to Oyster), took a service to Willesden Junction. Then touched a pink reader and continued onto Stratford.

When I was at Stratford, I then touched a pink reader again and headed over to the DLR platforms.

The DLR platforms have a ticket machine (within the gated area*) and Oyster validators. The wording on the validator read something like "Oyster Pay as You Go users must touch in before travelling on the DLR". Thinking this was a Wimbledon tram situation, I touched my Oyster card. On the screen, I got EXIT.

I touched again, to try and create an entry. Each time, I just got EXIT again. Decided not to board the DLR as I didn't want a PF.

Headed out to the barriers to touch out. Then back in again. Even walking in through the barriers generated an EXIT on the screen. But they opened, so I continued along.

On the DLR, the PSA checked my Oyster. The red light came on and he asked if I started at Harrow & Wealdstone. I said yes, he seemed shocked by the route I'd taken! He also said that there was no entry marker set, so it would reject, but he could see I was mid-journey so allowed me to continue with the advice of making sure I touched out at Canary Wharf.

I touched out there. The whole journey cost 95p, as expected (bargain).

Looking at the history on the machine, each EXIT has triggered a deduction of £0.00 from my card. I find it strange that I was also allowed an OSI at the same station (is this normal)?

Has anyone else been confused by the wording on the platform validators at Stratford?

* = Why would anyone present themselves ticketless at the barrier when they could buy a ticket from this machine if arriving ticketless?

 

[yorkie]

Anyone who uses Oyster PAYG, and wants to know how it works, may be interested to read MikeWh's site, Oyster Rail.

This sounds like a Continuation Exit, explained here:

http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/continuation-exits/

 

[Brucey]

Another observation today, which I cannot find an answer to MikeWh's website.

I made a DLR journey from Westferry to Tower Gateway, then walked to Bank and continued to St Paul's. I was charged a single journey from Westferry to St Paul's, as the Central Line was closed at Tower Hill, presumably as a temporary OSI.

At Tower Hill, staff were directing people onto a bus (I5 if I remember correctly) but I chose to walk. If I did take the bus, would the bus fare also be refunded on completion of the tube journey?

 

[NathanPrior]

Or as I do, don't touch in and out at intermediate stations where there's an Oyster reader if you have to change. Completley pointless really.

 

[MikeWh]

Has anyone else been confused by the wording on the platform validators at Stratford?

Yes, lots of people.

* = Why would anyone present themselves ticketless at the barrier when they could buy a ticket from this machine if arriving ticketless?

People arriving from East Anglia who want to go on the DLR are expected to use those validators.

Yorkie is right, that is a classic continuation exit scenario in all respects but one. My understanding is that exiting through the gates is supposed to close the continuation marker. It appears that if you just exit at the gates then it does do an exit (as I've done this myself) but if you have already used a validator which triggers the continuation exit, even leaving through the gate doesn't clear the marker. This is bad.

Fortunately you encountered a PSA who understood what was happening and exiting at your destination worked exactly as it should, finally closing your journey. The zero charges on each continuation exit is what should happen, but re-entering isn't really an OSI, it's badly thought through logic on the continuation exit. I am aware of other people in similar situations who have been given a PF on the DLR.

I would be very interested to see a copy of your journey history if you can get it, or a statement via email.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Another observation today, which I cannot find an answer to MikeWh's website.

I made a DLR journey from Westferry to Tower Gateway, then walked to Bank and continued to St Paul's. I was charged a single journey from Westferry to St Paul's, as the Central Line was closed at Tower Hill, presumably as a temporary OSI.

At Tower Hill, staff were directing people onto a bus (I5 if I remember correctly) but I chose to walk. If I did take the bus, would the bus fare also be refunded on completion of the tube journey?

Yes, it looks like an emergency OSI was set around those stations today. I don't know whether you would have been expected to touch in on the bus or not. If you had I suspect it would have broken the journey completely, but replacement buses are not usually charged. It's possible that the driver would have told rail passengers not to touch in. Arrangements around replacement buses is one area where I do not fully understand what is supposed to happen.

 

[Brucey]

Yes, I'll definitely post the journey history when it shows.

I've also just remembered that I actually topped up my Oyster card whilst outside the barriers at Stratford, as I expected to be charged for a second journey and didn't have enough credit. The journey continued across the topup which was surprising.

The PSA was actually very friendly and could obviously see what happened. The fare to Stratford and Canary Wharf were exactly the same, so it wasn't as if there was any intent to avoid paying the correct fare. I was a little worried before boarding the DLR train as this was actually my first DLR journey (so didn't really know how things worked). Had the ticket office queue been shorter, I would have visited and asked what's going on.

 

[John @ home]

Has anyone else been confused by the wording on the platform validators at Stratford?

Yes. The story of my confusion is in this thread.

 

[island]

Mrs. stifle had that problem a while back. The signage is terrible, especially compared to platforms 9 and 10 at Wimbledon which are excellent.

 

[Brucey]

I think MikeWh's advice on John@home's thread is perfect

The main message to take from this is that if you encounter standalone validators (for people arriving from/departing to outside Oyster by NR) then you shouldn't touch them if you are already in.

Unfortunately, the wording on the DLR readers is VERY bad.

My journey today was unplanned. I was on a London Midland service from Bletchley to Euston. On examining a tube map and price list, I decided to bail at Harrow & Wealdstone and take the North London Line and have a ride on the DLR. On arrival, I assumed the DLR platforms worked like the tram at Wimbledon where one must touch in again if travelling on the tram, due to the wording. Obviously, if I'd planned this in advance, I would have known not to touch. But it gets me thinking, how is the not very regular non-enthusiast passenger supposed to know about all of this? Do they only realise that the wording is wrong when they get PFed or charged a maximum fare?

 

[calc7]

At Tower Hill, staff were directing people onto a bus (I5 if I remember correctly) but I chose to walk. If I did take the bus, would the bus fare also be refunded on completion of the tube journey?

I would assume it was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Buses_route_15

 

[Brucey]

This journey now shows on my Oyster history. The intermediate top-up and all other journeys from the day don't yet show. The website is currently down for maintenance, so I can't post a screenshot.

From the top of my head, it went something like this on the new version:
Harrow & Wealdstone - Stratford £0.95
Stratford - Canary Wharf DLR £0.00 (with a button that stated this was a continuation of a previous journey)

The old version showed something like this:
12:20 Harrow & Wealdstone Entry
13:25 Stratford Exit
13:25 Stratford Exit
13:25 Stratford Exit
13:26 Stratford Exit
13:27 Stratford Entry
13:49 Canary Wharf DLR Exit

I don't remember the exact figures, but I'll post everything tomorrow as a screenshot so it can be better analysed.

Do the pink validators not show on the history?

I've also requested an email statement to see what information this tells us. From my analysis, touching out then in at Stratford has been treated like an OSI, albeit at the same station. It would be interesting to know what the time limit is for this to happen and whether it happened because I generated a continuation exit or because it generally occurs at that station.

 

[MikeWh]

That's very very interesting. How many journeys have you made since? The reason I ask is that the card keeps track of the last 8 journeys however long ago they were and it would be great to get a printout from an Underground station if that were still possible.

The reason it's so interesting is because the story that tells is not the same as the story you told earlier, but I'm not suggesting you didn't tell the truth. You said that even touching in on the gateline showed "Exit" and that the card was out when inspected on the DLR. But that says it went back in. It's almost as though the central system has decided that because you touched on an entry gate you must have been going in, even though your card registered a continuation exit. That is a big mess.

Pink validators don't show on the online journey history at the moment, but they will do when the next version is released in the near future. They will show on the email statement. When I exited at Stratford and came back in about 2 minutes later it worked as expected and started a new journey, so I think it's the continuation exit that is at work here.

 

[John @ home]

To enable us to determine whether there is something unique about the configuration at Stratford, here is my oyster journey record for Saturday 18 September 2010. My comments are in blue. Read from bottom to top.

18 September 2010

15:34 Kings Cross (Northern line) Exit £4.30 £13.60
15:15 Old Street Entry - £4.30 £9.30
14:42 Shoreditch High Street [London Overground] Exit £3.80 £13.60 Didn't expect this charge at Shoreditch. Time limt from West Croydon not exceeded. £7.50 off-peak daily cap applied here.
14:35 Shadwell [London Overground] Entry - £4.30 £9.80
14:33 Shadwell DLR Exit £0.00 £14.10 Lack of charge at Shadwell suggests OSI applied at Stratford.
14:09 Stratford Exit £1.90 £14.10 Validator encountered en route to DLR platforms marked 'Pay-as-you-Go Oyster users touch in here'.
14:04 Stratford Entry - £1.90 £12.20 Entry through main ticket gates to south of station.
14:00 Stratford Exit £1.90 £14.10 Exit through main ticket gates to south of station.
13:39 Dalston Kingsland Entry - £1.90 £12.20
OSI at Dalston.
13:24 Dalston Junction [London Overground] Exit £1.90 £14.10
12:30 West Croydon [London Overground/National Rail] Entry - £4.30 £12.20
12:03 East Croydon [National Rail] Exit £2.30 £16.50
11:29 Clapham Junction [National Rail] Entry - £4.30 £14.20
11:27 Clapham Junction [National Rail] Exit £3.00 £18.50
11:06 Pink validator at Willesden Jn used but not recorded in Journey history.
10:30 Dalston Kingsland Entry - £4.30 £15.50
Breakfast. Not OSI - max 20 mins at Dalston.
10:01 Dalston Junction [London Overground] Exit £3.00 £19.80
09:47 Hoxton [London Overground] Entry - £4.30 £16.80
Balance before 18 September 2010: £21.10.

 

[Brucey]

I have attached the screenshot of the journey history. Unfortunately, I've made 11 journeys since this one, so I won't be able to get hold of a printout.

I'm still awaiting the email statement.

 

[Brucey]

The plot thickens...

Take a look at this email statement which shows an Incomplete Journey that also counted towards my total spend on the day, but hasn't actually been deducted from my balance.

 

[MikeWh]

The plot thickens...

Take a look at this email statement which shows an Incomplete Journey that also counted towards my total spend on the day, but hasn't actually been deducted from my balance.

Actually that's a known bug whenever a pink validator is involved. As you say, it calculates the total for the day correctly.