Train ID Codes (but not Headcodes)

ryan125hst · 20 Jun 2013

After seeing the thread about brtimes.com and having a look at the improvements they have made, something has got me puzzled.

When you click on a train, you can see that there is a code for that particular train. For example, the 09:08 London Kings Cross to York is GR4180. Clearly GR is the train operator code (named after GNER- I wonder why some have been updated, such as Northern Rail, but others haven't?). I'm guessing that 4180 is then an ID number for that train. The headcode of the train, 1N81, is displayed further down the page in a smaller font, beneath the operator name and the code once again.

http://brtimes.com/#train?uid=Y5013...board?stn=KGX&filt=RET&date=20130620&show=dep

So what is this code? Why is it needed as well as a headcode and where is this information published? I have definitely seen a video of someone's journey from London Kings Cross to Edinburgh on YouTube and a code in the same format was mentioned in the description. I don't know whether brtimes was online when the video was published as it is almost two years old now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COxtBgLT1sc

Thanks

Ryan

RailUK Forums

starrymarkb · 20 Jun 2013

Headcodes are for the signalling system, they are not unique (ie 1A23 could exist in Scotland and Penzance at the same time) This also includes Freight, ECS and other workings

The GR4180 is a unique ID for the reservation system, AFAIK it only contains passenger services... The number is printed on Reservation slips and some trains display it on the external displays (22x & 390)

CC 72100 · 20 Jun 2013

starrymarkb said:
The GR4180 is a unique ID for the reservation system, AFAIK it only contains passenger services... The number is printed on Reservation slips and some trains display it on the external displays (22x & 390)

I'm sure this has been discussed/ suggested before, but I think that these unique codes could, if displayed a lot more, be used for advance tickets, to make it clearer which train is yours and how it is only valid on that train (like airlines) and replaced '11:21 on Date x'. Instead 'XC 4432 on Date x' for example.

starrymarkb · 20 Jun 2013

Indeed - I am a strong proponent of that idea - Last time I suggested it I was pretty much shot down...

transmanche · 20 Jun 2013

starrymarkb said:
Indeed - I am a strong proponent of that idea - Last time I suggested it I was pretty much shot down...

I'm with you on that. Use train numbers; it works on the continent and reduces any possible confusion when using advance tickets.

CC 72100 · 20 Jun 2013

starrymarkb said:
Indeed - I am a strong proponent of that idea - Last time I suggested it I was pretty much shot down...

I think for it to work though it would have to be 100% commitment - ie. this number would have to be displayed everywhere - above the train in timetables, on reservation tickets, on on-train PIS systems (stickers if Mark 3s), on departure boards, on journey planners - everywhere.

If it wasn't, then it would be doomed to fail.

W230 · 21 Jun 2013

AdamW said:
I think for it to work though it would have to be 100% commitment.

I'd never heard it suggested before and it does indeed sseem a very simple and effective idea. But like you say, needs 100% committment!

Paul Kelly · 21 Jun 2013

I agree too that the retail codes could be really useful if used more widely! Signalling headcode IDs are nice and short, well understood etc. but the problem is that they are just not unique and can be re-used within 6 hours in one part of the country, and in multiple parts of the country simultaneously, so just are no good when looking for a unique code to identify an individual train.

I think if the retail codes were more widely known there could be all sorts of interesting uses, e.g. one thing that occurred to me was that passengers could use them as twitter hashtags to identify the train they're on, e.g.:
Train been stopped for 10 mins outside Coventry now #XC3200
Air conditioning not working in coach B - avoid this train! #XC3200
and that sort of thing...

There is also a lot of scope to make the retail codes meaningful and understandable. For some operators they seem to be just randomly or sequentially allocated; for others there is a pattern. E.g. if you look at CrossCountry from Reading to Birmingham, the Manchester services have an ID in the range XC3xxx whereas the Newcastle services have an ID in the XC2xxxx range. From Bristol to Birmingham, the choice is between XC1xxx for services heading via Derby and on towards Scotland, or XC4xxx for services heading to Manchester.

Or for East Coast services out of King's Cross, the codes are: Leeds (GR2xxx), Newcastle or York (GR4xxx), Edinburgh (GR6xxx).

The other neat thing about them is that where a train has multiple portions that join/divide en-route, the different portions will all have the same retail ID (and are distinguished by individual portion IDs), making it easy for booking systems to book a through reservation on to a portion that divides, even though it will have a different signalling headcode.

CC 72100 · 21 Jun 2013

All good ideas above. Another thought just occurred to me - say I'm planning a journey with friends who will join me at several stations. As opposed to confusion over what time the train calls at station x, y, and z, I can say "I'll be on train GW5327 from Exeter, just look for that one the departure boards wherever you join me". No need to worry about researching the time that my train is booked to call at different stations, nice and simple.

Would reduce confusion on advance tickets, especially when the train 'timed to depart' actually departs a lot later and there's confusion over whose train is whose.

starrymarkb · 21 Jun 2013

Similarly I had a friend who was in Hamburg joining us on the ICE we were getting from Berlin, so he could reserve seats/book on the same train I just had to text the train number "ICE791" rather then "the 10:52 from Berlin Hauptbahnof for Leipzig"

ryan125hst · 21 Jun 2013

Thanks for the replies. I've know about headcodes for a few years but I have never got to the bottom of these ID codes (and rarely come across them).

They aren't published in Public and Working Timetables, so where are they published?

I'm liking the ideas for uses of them. As has already been said, it would take a lot of commitment from all TOCs for it to work. They would have to display them on Passenger Information Systems at stations and on trains, in the timetables and on the websites. They would also need to print some sort of guide (either posters, a booklet or both) so passengers understood the new system.

Will ever happen do you think?

Paul Kelly · 21 Jun 2013

The retail ID codes come from ATOC; they add them to the timetable data after they get it from Network Rail, before it is passed on to the booking engines or made available to download from http://data.atoc.org/. So timetables (or websites) that are sourced directly from Network Rail will not have them.

brtimes.com and realtimetrains.co.uk use a mash-up of both Network Rail and ATOC data, hence they are able to show the retail IDs, but as far as I know opentraintimes.com only uses Network Rail data, so it doesn't have them.

Invincibles · 22 Jun 2013

Codes work well in China, especially for those of us who can not speak Chinese.

An example ticket:

But those numbers are displayed on the departure screens, platforms, trains etc. Even the oldest styles of boards become easy to read.

If a system for describing trains could be developed that was intuitive to understand then I think it would be a very good idea to do similar here.

Of course in China the letter denotes the speed of the train, and therefore the fare, which is something else I would like to see in the UK. That way cheaper tickets could be sold for slower trains and the whole thing could be priced per mile and so drastically simplify the fare structure. (That is a different discussion, I just add it here because it could be linked to the codes)

Muzer · 22 Jun 2013

...but you can charge a lot more for slow commuter trains than you can for slow regional trains, so that wouldn't really work here

Philip Elliott · 22 Jun 2013

Actually as far as many railway IT systems are concerned, the 4-digit number is the headcode. 1A23, 1K23 etc. is the "reporting number" or "id" or "uid".

Poggs · 22 Jun 2013

Philip Elliott said:
Actually as far as many railway IT systems are concerned, the 4-digit number is the headcode. 1A23, 1K23 etc. is the "reporting number" or "id" or "uid".

The UID is something completely different - it's the schedule identifier on ITPS and train planning systems

Tom · 22 Jun 2013

Indigo2 said:
realtimetrains.co.uk use a mash-up of both Network Rail and ATOC data

RTT does not use any ATOC data.

Philip Elliott · 22 Jun 2013

Poggs said:
The UID is something completely different - it's the schedule identifier on ITPS and train planning systems

There is more than one UID. Hint: I use train planning systems daily...

455driver · 22 Jun 2013

starrymarkb said:
Headcodes are for the signalling system, they are not unique (ie 1A23 could exist in Scotland and Penzance at the same time)

Todays 1A23s are-

HC Origin Scheduled Departure Destination Scheduled Arrival
1A23 London Waterloo [WAT] 0953 to Alton [AON] 1110
1A23 Manchester Piccadilly [MAN] 0955 to London Euston [EUS] 1204
1A23 Kilmarnock [KMK] 1157 to Glasgow Central [GLC] 1235
1A23 Weston-super-Mare [WSM] 1501 to London Paddington [PAD] 1714
1A23 Kilmarnock [KMK] 1757 to Glasgow Central [GLC] 1837

All will have individual ID numbers for reservation purposes.

Paul Kelly · 22 Jun 2013

Tom said:
RTT does not use any ATOC data.

Ah; I misunderstood. Sorry about the misrepresentation. So when RTT reports a retail service ID I guess then it is just generated by concatenating the two-digit TOC code with the headcode from the Network Rail schedule data that Philip is referring to?

Not all schedules have this headcode. But it has just occurred to me, that maybe anywhere it's actually needed (i.e. a reservable service) it is added in. And where it's missing, ATOC's software adds a simple sequentially-generated one that isn't actually needed for anything? Certainly if you look at the departures from Leeds to Manchester Victoria next Tuesday, the retail IDs for the reservable services (which are also shown on RTT) seem to be allocated in a different sequence to those for the non-reservable services (which aren't shown on RTT).

All very interesting. And as an aside, maybe we have stumbled again upon the reason that the train retail IDs aren't widely reported - you can only a full list of them from ATOC. And they charge a lot of money for them, unless you're content with only having weekly updates to the data.

The Planner · 22 Jun 2013

Philip Elliott said:
There is more than one UID. Hint: I use train planning systems daily...

We only use the one UID which is what is seen on the Open data sites, even then that is only to make every train unique (as UID suggests) for downstream systems, it means next to sod all in planning.

PermitToTravel · 22 Jun 2013

starrymarkb said:
Headcodes are for the signalling system, they are not unique (ie 1A23 could exist in Scotland and Penzance at the same time) This also includes Freight, ECS and other workings

The GR4180 is a unique ID for the reservation system, AFAIK it only contains passenger services... The number is printed on Reservation slips and some trains display it on the external displays (22x & 390)

The external display on a 390 shows the train reporting number, with "VT" prepended. I cannot speak for 22xs

Paul Kelly · 22 Jun 2013

fahadsadah said:
The external display on a 390 shows the train reporting number, with "VT" prepended.

Sometimes it does; sometimes it shows the retail ID. I think they used to always show the retail ID, but the practice may have slipped. However I was in Manchester Piccadilly last Saturday afternoon and both the 1335 and 1355 London Euston services were definitely showing their retail IDs on the side display (VT7747 and VT7757 respectively).

PermitToTravel · 23 Jun 2013

Interesting, thanks. The last few 390s I have seen had the headcode on the side (the last I travelled on showed VT1H11). Does this imply that the displays are set by the traincrew?

Tom · 24 Jun 2013

Indigo2 said:
Ah; I misunderstood. Sorry about the misrepresentation. So when RTT reports a retail service ID I guess then it is just generated by concatenating the two-digit TOC code with the headcode from the Network Rail schedule data that Philip is referring to?

Yes. I've seen a couple of instances, specifically on ScotRail only, where the headcode concatenation trick doesn't match the RSID, though.

Train ID Codes (but not Headcodes)

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