Please don't walk through first class

I think a few people on here are perhaps reading too far into this. I don't think anyone in first class or any ticket inspectors really care what you look like. Sorry but I don't buy the stories of guards and passengers making comments because they don't think you belong in first class based on dress. I think people are expecting that kind of thing and so reading between the lines of what they hear and re-telling what happened in a slightly exaggerated way.

As has been said, first class is not necessarily more expensive than standard. It's not a section reserved for the elite, for those who wear finest tailored suits and have terribly important jobs to do. It's also used by those making a infrequent but long trip, those who have booked early and got a good deal, those treating themselves off on holidays and many other reasons. I really don't think there are many people in first who really care who else is sitting in there, as long as they have a ticket.

I think a few people on here have built themselves up to making a first class trip and gone out with the attitude that 1st is rather elitist and are determined to turn heads by travelling on their first class ticket. Just my opinion based on experience.

A-driver said:

I think a few people on here are perhaps reading too far into this. I don't think anyone in first class or any ticket inspectors really care what you look like. Sorry but I don't buy the stories of guards and passengers making comments because they don't think you belong in first class based on dress. I think people are expecting that kind of thing and so reading between the lines of what they hear and re-telling what happened in a slightly exaggerated way.

As has been said, first class is not necessarily more expensive than standard. It's not a section reserved for the elite, for those who wear finest tailored suits and have terribly important jobs to do. It's also used by those making a infrequent but long trip, those who have booked early and got a good deal, those treating themselves off on holidays and many other reasons. I really don't think there are many people in first who really care who else is sitting in there, as long as they have a ticket.

I think a few people on here have built themselves up to making a first class trip and gone out with the attitude that 1st is rather elitist and are determined to turn heads by travelling on their first class ticket. Just my opinion based on experience.

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I think the issue of people walking through the train at the last minute affects standard class too, just that it's more of an issue on Intercity trains into London as on most routes the first-class carriages are at the front of the train.

Even travelling into King's Cross on FCC services, no matter what time of day you can guarantee that some time after Finsbury Park a string of people will appear walking through in order to be first off.

It's not the worst thing in the world, but it is irritating as it means it takes longer for those sitting there to get off the train and delays people getting luggage off the racks etc. If everyone chose to do it then it would cause a major issue. Likewise in the reverse direction it can be mildly irritating to leave a terminus, everyone gets settled, then anything up to 5 minutes later potentially a load of latecomers who can't be bothered to turn up on time end up steaming through and generally being a nuisance.

DaveNewcastle said:

Without knowing any details, speculation is risky, but my first thought was there there might have been a particularly sensitive group of passengers on-board, who merit protection.I'm sure no offence was implied!

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Some folks spend half their life trying to find things to be offended by.
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YorkshireBear said:

Unless it was really vital i see no reason why you would do it really, walking along a platform is much easier than down a train.

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As first class is supposed to be by the "buffers", maybe people want to get through before the queue builds-up at the gates.
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broadgage said:

NO ! a first class ticket is valid in standard, nothing prevents a first class ticket holder from sitting in, passing through, or standing in steerage if they so wish.

A standard ticket is not valid in first (unless specialy authorised) and holders of such tickets should not use first class accomadation, even briefly to pass through.

As a fairly regular first class rail user I object to first being invaded by standard class passengers for the last 30 minutes or more.
On long distance FGW services into London, large numbers of standard class passengers regulary move forward into First in order to alight at Reading, and after the Reading stop a second batch move forawrd to be first out at Paddington.
This results in considerable congestion with the aisles being blocked by luggage and baby carriages. Those who hold first class tickets are then unable to alight promptly because they have to wait for the hoards in the gangways and vestibules to move.

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Awwww, diddums.

samxool said:

Wow, the snobbery and inflated sense of self entitlement is shocking in this thread!!!
I regularly sit in standard, and just as we are approaching London, I will walk through the train to the front doors. I have somewhere to be, have better things to do with my life than stand around all day waiting to get off the trai. I'm not doing anything wrong.
I'll have been by the front door for like.30 seconds. If you don't like it, frankly get a life and stop fretting over things that don't matter. And there shouldn't be first class anyway. It's ridiculous.

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Why shouldn't there be first class?

As has been pointed out earlier, not everyone in first class has an "..inflated sense of self entitlement...", and in some cases a first advance ticket can actually be cheaper than a standard class walk up fare.

Perhaps the people who really have an "...inflated sense of self entitlement...." are those who "..have somewhere to be..." and whose lives are so important that they have "..better things to do with their lives than standing around all day waiting to get off the train..."

samxool said:

Wow, the snobbery and inflated sense of self entitlement is shocking in this thread!!!
I regularly sit in standard, and just as we are approaching London, I will walk through the train to the front doors. I have somewhere to be, have better things to do with my life than stand around all day waiting to get off the trai. I'm not doing anything wrong.
I'll have been by the front door for like.30 seconds. If you don't like it, frankly get a life and stop fretting over things that don't matter. And there shouldn't be first class anyway. It's ridiculous.

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Don't try it on my morning trains. If you want the convenience of alighting from the front of the train, then pay for it. Others do.
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asylumxl said:

Some would call that stereotyping

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I call it experience...

We've debated along similar lines numerous times before. (Should Standard Class passengers stand in First Class vestibules, should Standard Class passengers board using First Class doors etc etc)

Taken as a whole, I think there is a problem with people stereotyping that only the 'suits' should be in First. I've had this myself. It's annoying at times, but meh, so long as nobody says anything I couldn't care less. And if they do want to take issue I will be happy to show them my ticket, if it gives them the satisfaction....

But in all honesty, I don't think there was any elitism, or implication that only the plebs are riding in Standard, by asking passengers seated in Standard not to walk through First Class carriages.

I use East Coast between Stevenage and London once a month at least. Coming out of KGX, I see numerous people walking through First. By and large it doesn't bother me. But if one person does it, why not 10? If 10 people do it, why not 20?

It boils down to the simple fact that a Standard ticket isn't valid anywhere in First Class - not a vestibule, not a carriage, unless of course it's declassified, or not timetabled to have First.

We're all busy. We're all in a rush. But if you're onboard East Coast (which is a long distance operator anyway) I think you can spare another 40 seconds to get off the train and walk down the platform.

Quite right. Dont forget its the same with SWT on the 444. people walk into 1st class when the train gets to Waterloo.

As a rule of thumb, I agree with the principle that people shouldn't be passing through first class. As we've said, one of the reasons for buying a first class ticket - whether it's a cheap Advance or splurging on a full fare - is try and guarantee some space. This includes, I think, the relative clam that comes from people not constantly passing through, particularly at the end of the trip.

That said, there are exceptions. TransPennine's 185s have one of their two toilets at the end of a first class area. It's not infrequent for the smaller of the two toilets to be overflowing/out of loo paper etc. It's also the only one with baby changing facilities. In any case, I think that if you're going to make a major facility only accessible via first class then it's much more reasonable to use.

I have had the odd funny look if looking out of place in first, and have sometimes observed that my ticket was the first to be asked for, but so long as this is done politly I dont mind.

On one recent trip I was wearing clean overalls and carrying a roll of cable and a tool box, this got me the odd look but I had a valid ticket and dont believe that my attire would have offended a reasonable person, nor was it dirty and liable to soil the seats etc.

IME, FGW staff are more polite than Virgin when checking tickets in First.

FGW staff seem to presume that one belongs in first unless a ticket check shows otherwise.
Virgin staff seem to presume that one does NOT belong in first unless a ticket check shows otherwise.

A-driver said:

I think a few people on here are perhaps reading too far into this. I don't think anyone in first class or any ticket inspectors really care what you look like. Sorry but I don't buy the stories of guards and passengers making comments because they don't think you belong in first class based on dress. I think people are expecting that kind of thing and so reading between the lines of what they hear and re-telling what happened in a slightly exaggerated way.

As has been said, first class is not necessarily more expensive than standard. It's not a section reserved for the elite, for those who wear finest tailored suits and have terribly important jobs to do. It's also used by those making a infrequent but long trip, those who have booked early and got a good deal, those treating themselves off on holidays and many other reasons. I really don't think there are many people in first who really care who else is sitting in there, as long as they have a ticket.

I think a few people on here have built themselves up to making a first class trip and gone out with the attitude that 1st is rather elitist and are determined to turn heads by travelling on their first class ticket. Just my opinion based on experience.

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I think your post sums things up very well indeed.

I am also surprised that there are some members that seem to have such a hatred for first class, or the people that dare travel in first, which I can only assume is down to some sort of jealousy (even if first class is really no big deal on a train).

As such, there's this arrogance and protestation that seems to make some think it's okay to walk through first class on an Intercity train to be closest to the exit, when it absolutely isn't and there's no excuse to think otherwise. You don't have a ticket that allows access to first class, so accept it and stop feeling insecure because someone else does.

When an Intercity train is coming close to the end of its journey, people are quite entitled to stand up and get their things together, put a laptop or tablet away, unplug chargers, get a jacket on etc - without being hindered by people all walking through and queuing down the aisle, and no doubt some of them desperately waiting to hear a huff or comment so they can have a go at the people they now see as some sort of enemy. I mean, they're probably an MP, banker or the CEO of an energy company.

It's equally rude to do this in standard of course, and can you imagine if people did that on a plane. Seated in row 38, land, seatbelts off, pull your bag out and storm up to the front of the plane to be first off. (Let's assume there's no rear exit being used!).

Those that walk through the train* are the ones being rude and obnoxious - not those who opted to pay to be in first class and are now seen as 'fair game' because you either can't afford first class, or would rather it didn't exist. And all you're doing is creating the very divide you're supposedly against.

Don't agree with first class? Write to the TOC, complain to the DfT, lobby your MP.

Or if doing something that might actually change something seems like too much work, go onto a forum and moan about it, or send some rude Tweets or like a 'get rid of First Class on trains' Facebook page.

* Let me point out that I also walk down the train on FCC services, but I do it earlier so people aren't getting up to get ready to alight. And if people are already up, or an aisle is blocked, I'll stop short. No need to squeeze through. Likewise, if the train is for some reason quite busy, I'll stay put.

broadgage said:

IME, FGW staff are more polite than Virgin when checking tickets in First.

FGW staff seem to presume that one belongs in first unless a ticket check shows otherwise.
Virgin staff seem to presume that one does NOT belong in first unless a ticket check shows otherwise.

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I've never travelled first with First, but I've often done it with Virgin and SWT. I've very occasionally had funny looks from other passengers, but not once have I had anything other that complete professionalism from the on-board staff.

I daresay it happens, I've read one or two tales, but I expect in the vast majority of cases, guards will check your ticket rather than make a potentially embarrassing snap judgement. Particularly if they know their TOC offers advance first, or weekend first upgrades.

I can imagine some people in first class looking at others funny, but I can't see how or why train staff would.

They would see hundreds of people every day, dressed in all sorts of ways, and people from all walks of life. They also know that people might have a cheap advance ticket, a nicely discounted ticket, a complimentary ticket from the TOC for whatever reason etc. And then there are the people who just fancied treating themselves to first class to start a holiday, or as a nice end to one.

So, why would ANY train staff ever judge a passenger based on what they looked like, or what they were wearing?

Now that's not to say they might not have their own suspicions and an extra sense, as Flamingo mentioned, about those who might not have a first class ticket at all - but I'd certainly not expect them to actually say that to the passenger. They'd just wait to check the ticket and then feel smug if and when they were proven right!

I'll admit that I've been envious of people I've seen checking in to first class on a long-haul flight, but I've never said anything. And when I've gone first class on a plane, I've never dressed up for it and never been badly treated (of course, on a plane, it's somewhat harder to just plonk yourself down in first and hope to get away with it!).

I travel first class a lot of the time and standard class others with many train companies. Sometimes I am in a Paul Smith suit and Church's shoes and others worn jeans and baggy sweaters, sometimes I have my kids with me sometimes I don't.

The choice of where I sit on a train depends on price - is the extra comfort and freebies in first worth the difference to standard (first normally costs more but can be cheaper). I have had comments about children in first from a couple of people who expected silence (not that the kids were being noisy just talking) - they were quickly informed that it was not the quiet coach (this was great fun when East Coast only had a standard class quiet coach) however the staff have been very good in virtually all occasions and if you (and the kids) are polite to them - the kids always say please and thank you - there is never a problem.

Regarding the original topic - I have only heard these announcements on East Coast when the trains have been very busy and presumably its to manage egress rather than anything else.

On the 450, the cycle storage is on one side of First Class, and the guard's hiding place is the other.

It'd be "interesting" to justify boarding at an unmanned station with a pedal cycle and not walking to the guard to get a ticket because you didn't want to enter First Class.

I'm not saying that's a good argument, mind

I'd see that as no different to walking through first class on a 317 where it's in the middle of the train and you have a genuine reason/excuse to pass through.

Lockwood said:

On the 450, the cycle storage is on one side of First Class, and the guard's hiding place is the other.

It'd be "interesting" to justify boarding at an unmanned station with a pedal cycle and not walking to the guard to get a ticket because you didn't want to enter First Class.

I'm not saying that's a good argument, mind

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But despite the thread title, that isn't the scenario being discussed.

No-one has claimed that you cannot walk through a first class area to get to another standard class area elsewhere on the train, i.e. the situation on many Emus arranged as you describe, such as 450s. As quoted earlier, the NR CofC refer to 'remain in' the first class area.

swt_passenger said:

But despite the thread title, that isn't the scenario being discussed.

No-one has claimed that you cannot walk through a first class area to get to another standard class area elsewhere on the train, i.e. the situation on many Emus arranged as you describe, such as 450s. As quoted earlier, the NR CofC refer to 'remain in' the first class area.

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The question there is "Is it merely walking 'through' first class to get to the exit door closest to the barriers?"

AndyLandy said:

The question there is "Is it merely walking 'through' first class to get to the exit door closest to the barriers?"

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And this is where there's a difference.

On a FCC 321, first class is at one end of the train BUT the doorway in the middle of it is NOT part of first class. You can board through this door and stand in the vestibule if you so wish, although some RPIs are of the opinion that it is first class so you're not guaranteed to avoid grief.

There are doors on each side of the vestibule, each marked with stickers to say that the compartment is for first class ticket holders only.

If you board through this door, or wish to alight through it, you can walk through the section of first class that stands between the doors and standard - but not stay in it. But you can't go in the far end, unless you're trying to enter the cab!

On an Intercity train, I'm 99% certain the doors on a first class carriage are PART OF first class - so the argument doesn't work.

Correct Jon, the vestibule in H is part of First Class, anybody there has already walked past at least one set of doors in Std class, and at least three in First.

Late running is different, I have told passengers to go down to the front ODF H if we are late and they are rushing for an onward connection, but regular commuters have no excuse in most cases.

Lockwood said:

On the 450, the cycle storage is on one side of First Class, and the guard's hiding place is the other.

It'd be "interesting" to justify boarding at an unmanned station with a pedal cycle and not walking to the guard to get a ticket because you didn't want to enter First Class.

I'm not saying that's a good argument, mind

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You shouldn't have to find the guard to get a ticket anyway. They should find you, or you should buy at the other end, is my understanding.

AndyLandy said:

The question there is "Is it merely walking 'through' first class to get to the exit door closest to the barriers?"

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Ah, but the second you stop you're no longer walking through

Let's pour some petrol over this.

True story.
Today at Euston in the First Class lounge VT CSA was looking for people who were supposed to travel on next train so that he can take them to the right platform before it is shown on the departure screens so that "you don't have to stand with everybody else in the queue"

How very dare they? With everybody else?

WCMLaddict said:

Let's pour some petrol over this.

True story.
Today at Euston in the First Class lounge VT CSA was looking for people who were supposed to travel on next train so that he can take them to the right platform before it is shown on the departure screens so that "you don't have to stand with everybody else in the queue"

How very dare they? With everybody else?

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Sadly, that doesn't surprise me!

WCMLaddict said:

Let's pour some petrol over this.

True story.
Today at Euston in the First Class lounge VT CSA was looking for people who were supposed to travel on next train so that he can take them to the right platform before it is shown on the departure screens so that "you don't have to stand with everybody else in the queue"

How very dare they? With everybody else?

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What exactly is wrong with that? Exactly the same thing happens with Premium Air Travel, so why shouldn't it happen with premium rail travel too?

Goatboy said:

What exactly is wrong with that? Exactly the same thing happens with Premium Air Travel, so why shouldn't it happen with premium rail travel too?

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Absolutely nothing in my view! I did feel very special indeed, like a rail industry buff

WCMLaddict said:

Let's pour some petrol over this.

True story.
Today at Euston in the First Class lounge VT CSA was looking for people who were supposed to travel on next train so that he can take them to the right platform before it is shown on the departure screens so that "you don't have to stand with everybody else in the queue"

How very dare they? With everybody else?

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Queue? Does anybody stand in a queue when getting a train?

westv said:

Queue? Does anybody stand in a queue when getting a train?

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Often at Euston, there is a ticket check before platform entrance. Usually when the platforms are announced, there is a huge dash towards them and then a big queue.
That's what he meant.

work-traveller said:

Slightly less annoying than what I observed on a Swiss flight from Zurich to Hong Kong, where the business class passengers were blocked from leaving via the front exit until the first class passengers had exited. Annoying for those who'd paid several £1000s for the 'privilege' of business class!

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So? The passengers in First had probably paid even more!

WCMLaddict said:

Let's pour some petrol over this.

True story.
Today at Euston in the First Class lounge VT CSA was looking for people who were supposed to travel on next train so that he can take them to the right platform before it is shown on the departure screens so that "you don't have to stand with everybody else in the queue"

How very dare they? With everybody else?

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Or you could look it up on RealTimeTrains. That sometimes knows the platform before the departure boards, too!

Goatboy said:

What exactly is wrong with that? Exactly the same thing happens with Premium Air Travel, so why shouldn't it happen with premium rail travel too?

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Absolutely agree with you. First Class rail travel on InterCity TOCs should be a premium product in every respect.

To go back to the original post, I too get very annoyed when standard class passengers come into 1st Class just before arrival at Waterloo as it means that it's difficult to get up and collect bags and coats as standard class passengers are blocking the aisles.

I recently flew First Class with British Airways from Miami to Heathrow. All other passengers, including Business, were held back briefly to allow 1st to alight unhindered. I was late leaving the cabin and as soon as the crew saw me wanting to leave, they again held others back..

As I said at the beginning of this post, 1st Class is supposed to be a premium product and TOCs shouldn't be ashamed of treating it as such.